Which Homosexuals Are "Incurable"?

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Tell me what you believe Love to be.

(I notice that you didn’t address any of my questions…)

Coptic, I’ve already told you. And in this thread. Because you asked me earlier to give you my understanding of Faith, Hope and Love (and a couple other things, too). And I did give you a precis of my understanding of Faith, Hope and Love (and a couple other things, too), all the while suspecting that it was pointless to do so. I see my suspicions were justified.

See page 9 of this thread, post #128 if you’re interested. Otherwise…whatever.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

(I notice that you didn’t address any of my questions…)

Coptic, I’ve already told you. And in this thread. Because you asked me earlier to give you my understanding of Faith, Hope and Love (and a couple other things, too). And I did give you a precis of my understanding of Faith, Hope and Love (and a couple other things, too), all the while suspecting that it was pointless to do so. I see my suspicions were justified.

See page 9 of this thread, post #128 if you’re interested. Otherwise…whatever.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

This is what you said…Correct.

Love: the willingness to give oneself or empty oneself completely for the sake of another. To seek the good of another over and above oneself. The willingness to look for, see, recognize, joy in and foster the good, the true and the beautiful in another, for the sake of the other even at (especially at) the cost of one’s own desolation, ruin or death. The ability to be selflessly and indiscriminately and gratuitously for others in the ways that God is selflessly, indiscriminately and gratuitously for us.

and I explained

What is Love? Good Rabbi what must I do…why do you call me good…God alone is God.

Love is willing God to others in your thinking, feeling, believing and actions and whatever you do if it does not bring someone to the Revealed truths of God…then this is not Love.

Virtues are habits that are good habits as opposed to bad habits. Virtues animated by grace can cause the habitual practioner to perfect their character, grow in morality and animated by Faith/Hope and Charity cause growth towards Holiness and love of God.

Repent, do not be conformed to the world…join me…we can repent together…

Since you point out that the basis of understanding is Christian Love…then Christian love is to will God to you by pointing out the sin that is committed and asking you to repent, if it is sin that keeps you from God, regardless of the life you lead, the person you think you are, the wonderful deeds you do, the joy you find may find in male/male copulation, or any other such thought, feeling or action…

Willing God to you is not saying…hey, bless your placing your parts of equal gender together and joining in the love of one another while you praise God…may your relationship prosper and grow in the unity of the Holy Spirit, may all grace come to you and whatever else that you desire in your coming, in your going…

Grace & Peace!

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

For your coninuance in this wonderful life, that is boundless of the joys you experience while engaged in Fornication/Masturbation/Prostitution/Homosexuality…all blessings to you…

No, I don’t think I can do that.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

This is what you said…Correct.

That is indeed what I wrote.

and I explained

I’m not convinced that you understand what it is you actually wrote when you wrote that love is willing God to others, because you followed up such a lovely thought with the idea that Love is actually about trying to argue a series of dogmatic positions (“revealed truths”) convincingly and/or correctly–that’s not love, Coptic, that’s a debate. There’s a difference. Jesus didn’t commission a debate team in order to show us that he loved us–he died for us, rose again, and gave us his Spirit to enable us to become part of his Body. God is not a dogmatic position.

Since you point out that the basis of understanding is Christian Love

The basis of understanding what is Christian love? The context in which I asked the various questions I recently asked you is clear. Pay attention to it–and stop avoiding answering the questions.

Christian love is to will God to you by pointing out the sin that is committed and asking you to repent, if it is sin that keeps you from God, regardless of the life you lead, the person you think you are, the wonderful deeds you do, the joy you find may find in male/male copulation, or any other such thought, feeling or action…

You are confusing the love of God in Christ which we are to imitate with the purpose of the Law. It is not surprising that you would make this mistake, given your dogmaticistic tendencies and your understanding of Love as correctly articulating a series of dogmatic positions which you feel convey God to someone.

Read Romans.

Willing God to you is not saying…hey, bless your placing your parts of equal gender together and joining in the love of one another while you praise God…may your relationship prosper and grow in the unity of the Holy Spirit, may all grace come to you and whatever else that you desire in your coming, in your going…

That’s a parody of what I wrote regarding imagining with someone the new life they could be living as opposed to expecting them to suddenly live the life you want them to live because you’ve explained some finer points of dogma to them. I suspect you know that, though, but can’t be bothered to care.

If you really want to have a conversation with me or anyone, Coptic, it would behoove you to actually pay attention to what your conversation partner says.

(Also, what precisely are you insinuating regarding me and/or my behavior when you write: “placing your parts of equal gender together?”)

No, I don’t think I can do that.

I never asked you to.

Pay more attention.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[CopticChristian]

Grace & Peace!

That is indeed what I wrote.

I’m not convinced that you understand what it is you actually wrote when you wrote that love is willing God to others, because you followed up such a lovely thought with the idea that Love is actually about trying to argue a series of dogmatic positions (“revealed truths”) convincingly and/or correctly–that’s not love, Coptic, that’s a debate. There’s a difference. Jesus didn’t commission a debate team in order to show us that he loved us–he died for us, rose again, and gave us his Spirit to enable us to become part of his Body. God is not a dogmatic position.

The basis of understanding what is Christian love? The context in which I asked the various questions I recently asked you is clear. Pay attention to it–and stop avoiding answering the questions.

You are confusing the love of God in Christ which we are to imitate with the purpose of the Law. It is not surprising that you would make this mistake, given your dogmaticistic tendencies and your understanding of Love as correctly articulating a series of dogmatic positions which you feel convey God to someone.

Read Romans.

That’s a parody of what I wrote regarding imagining with someone the new life they could be living as opposed to expecting them to suddenly live the life you want them to live because you’ve explained some finer points of dogma to them. I suspect you know that, though, but can’t be bothered to care.

If you really want to have a conversation with me or anyone, Coptic, it would behoove you to actually pay attention to what your conversation partner says.

(Also, what precisely are you insinuating regarding me and/or my behavior when you write: “placing your parts of equal gender together?”)

I never asked you to.

Pay more attention.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

Mark,

The world out there is the world out there.

What you have in your head is what you have portrayed the world to be in your head. Your dissatisfaction, your indignation, your difficulties in pleading for understanding have to do with the response you get to the portrayal of the world in your head, as you express it and ask others to understand, accept, and respond to.

The world in my head is based on revealed truths as outlined in the Catechism…

Our profession of Faith, that includes a belief in One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church and all that it teaches…that include what it is we are to know concerning what it is God wants us to know so that

We can live a Sacramental Life…so that we can receive the graces we need to

Model Christ in every way and become Holy as our God is Holy and we need help so we

Pray, constantly…

We Believe
We Practice
We Model Christ
We Pray

Based on this, model in my head, I believe it conforms more accurately to the world out there because I believe In many and various ways God spoke to us through His Prophets and in these last days He spoke to us through His Son, who built a Church, His House, a place that is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth…and when things are true, you can know that as you go into the world with this model of the world in your head and you encounter things that don’t register what others see…

You tell them what is in your head, as I do, that I believe conforms more accurately to the world out there, based on Revealed Truths, than the world that someone else wants me to accept…based on the portrayal of their understanding of the world that is in their head…

This I believe, this I understand, and if you recognize your difficulty in having anyone grasping your requests for reconsideration of whatever it is you think and believe then it is because the world inside your head does not conform to

The profession of Faith
Sacramental Life
Life in Christ
Prayer

that is in my head, and when you understand that your actions are ordered as you think and believe, you will understand that when there is disorder in your actions then there is disorder in your thinking.

Ok…

 

[Kolbe300]

if you want people to change their lives, then you will need to imagine with them the new life you would like them to live, and you will need to imagine it with them in such a way that it is instantly recognizable and desirable as something imminently and authentically good, true and beautiful–i.e., that it is better in real and discernibly present ways than what they have now. This requires, in part, being able to see them as already being the sort of wonderful people you want them to be as opposed to assuming that they are the horrible folks you suspect them to be.

It is amazing to me (though it shouldn’t be, at this point) how something like what you posted there can go flying right over the heads of some posters here. Despite that fact, thank you for always trying.

There are too many well-meaning (at least I hope they’re well-meaning) people driving gay men and women away from the Church and away from God without even realizing it. How they are incapable of seeing it, I will never be able to understand. I don’t know what the answer is because common sense obviously doesn’t work.

 

[CopticChristian]

It is amazing to me (though it shouldn’t be, at this point) how something like what you posted there can go flying right over the heads of some posters here. Despite that fact, thank you for always trying.

There are too many well-meaning (at least I hope they’re well-meaning) people driving gay men and women away from the Church and away from God without even realizing it. How they are incapable of seeing it, I will never be able to understand. I don’t know what the answer is because common sense obviously doesn’t work.

Kolbe,

You may believe that well meaning people are driving gay men and women away from the Church. The Church is the mystery hidden for all ages, is here, as the body of Christ, Bride of Christ, is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow. You may believe that they are being driven away however perhaps it is they that want to drive their own life, absent the Church, absent God and they drive away on their own power…God is always there…they can come back.

 

[Kolbe300]

You may believe that well meaning people are driving gay men and women away from the Church.

Coptic, I don’t believe they are. I know they are. Heck, when I see the language used and the often willful (it seems to me) lack of understanding that permeates these threads at times, it makes me want to leave the Church. I had to take a long break from CAF a while back because it had me questioning all the people sitting next to me at mass. I kept asking myself, “Do these people actually think like some CAF folks do?”

I know you don’t see it or believe it. But that’s because you really can’t. Unfotunately, we can’t trade shoes, even for a day.

The Church is the mystery hidden for all ages, is here, as the body of Christ, Bride of Christ, is the same yesterday, today and tommorrow.

To this I give a hearty, AMEN.

You may believe that they are being driven away however perhaps it is they that want to drive their own life, absent the Church, absent God and they drive away on their own power…God is always there…they can come back.

There is no doubt that many gay men and women want to drive a life of their own, absent the Church and absent God. There’s not a lot we can do for them but pray. But a lot of people aren’t like that. A lot of people with a homosexual orientation have never acted on it. They’re kids in middle school, high school, college. They’re kids like I was and like countless other homosexual persons are and have been. If I had found this forum in high school I would not be a Catholic today, without question.

If we can stop long enough to see that countless homosexual people are not a part of some monstrous agenda, that they aren’t fighting for rights to marry and to make you accept they’re “lifestyle,” we might actually be able to offer them hope, peace, and love. A real chance to live the faith we love. Deo Volente worded it in his tiny little paragraph perfectly. And he’s not even Catholic.

I know you mean well, Coptic, I really do. But have you ever stopped to wonder why even the homosexual, celibate, devout Catholics on this forum are always arguing with you? We’re supposed to be on the same team, and we’re trying to get a point across that falls continuously on deaf ears.

I simply don’t know what the answer is.

 

[CopticChristian]

Coptic, I don’t believe they are. I know they are. Heck, when I see the language used and the often willful (it seems to me) lack of understanding that permeates these threads at times, it makes me want to leave the Church. I had to take a long break from CAF a while back because it had me questioning all the people sitting next to me at mass. I kept asking myself, “Do these people actually think like some CAF folks do?”

I know you don’t see it or believe it. But that’s because you really can’t. Unfotunately, we can’t trade shoes, even for a day.

To this I give a hearty, AMEN.

There is no doubt that many gay men and women want to drive a life of their own, absent the Church and absent God. There’s not a lot we can do for them but pray. But a lot of people aren’t like that. A lot of people with a homosexual orientation have never acted on it. They’re kids in middle school, high school, college. They’re kids like I was and like countless other homosexual persons are and have been. If I had found this forum in high school I would not be a Catholic today, without question.

If we can stop long enough to see that countless homosexual people are not a part of some monstrous agenda, that they aren’t fighting for rights to marry and to make you accept they’re “lifestyle,” we might actually be able to offer them hope, peace, and love. A real chance to live the faith we love. Deo Volente worded it in his tiny little paragraph perfectly. And he’s not even Catholic.

I know you mean well, Coptic, I really do. But have you ever stopped to wonder why even the homosexual, celibate, devout Catholics on this forum are always arguing with you? We’re supposed to be on the same team, and we’re trying to get a point across that falls continuously on deaf ears.

I simply don’t know what the answer is.

Kolbe,

Your thoughts are heartfelt. The tragedy is that based on past postings some do not come here as those that have given up what most of of have in that our ahderence to the flesh or loving our life is losing it.

The tragedy is that some are involved in monagamous homosexual relationships, believe that those relationships are blessed, that the Holy Spirit dwelss there in the unions of spirit and flesh and these same people speak…for who…for you or for themselves…?

Do I have sadness in my life? Do I suffer in my life? Do I have tragedy in my life? Is it because the Church teaching causes me to conform? Yes and I don’t have a notion that the Church should accomodate me nor do I pour out my affliction to ask others to consider whatever might make those believeing that there should be some change for me relevant…it isn’t.

What is relevant is that if you and others have come to the Church then your alignment isn’t physical anymore nor should it be and whatever affliction you believe you have then you should count it as nothing and speak only of the unity that brought you here…to believe that you have something to gain by believing that those that speak of unity in the flesh as if akin to some fraternal shared experience…then I don’t understand…

We all suffer, we all come looking for something we could not find in the flesh that we find in the unity of Spirit and then all those things in the flesh that we experienced and caused us suffering exist outside the realm of unity…

How many do you believe that are on this forum have Fornicated, Masturbated, Lusted…do you see any speaking for the solidarity of those that suffer these sins, speaking as if we should change how we believe to accomodate them?

What do you value more…your spiritual well being or your belief that someone else in the flesh suffers in some way that you may have or do?

What is of more value…to engage and share whatever is beautiful, whatever is true the peace of knowing you assent to the will of God…or adherence to some created thing like an emotion, an attraction, a part of ourselves.

What is more value…learning that losing your life you gain everything or attachment to this life in any way causes eternal separation.

What do you want to champion?

 

[The_Bucket]

How many do you believe that are on this forum have Fornicated, Masturbated, Lusted…do you see any speaking for the solidarity of those that suffer these sins, speaking as if we should change how we believe to accomodate them?

I’m guessing that basically everyone on this forum has lusted in some way or another. The vast majority have masturbated. A large percentage engaged in sex outside of marriage. I’m not presuming towards individuals by the way; I’m simply basing that on real statistics.

Kolbe is not saying that the Church needs to change its teaching. And I don’t say that either. I’m saying that members of the Church need to actually follow Christ’s example. The doctrine is sound. And the catechism calls for those with homosexual orientation to be protected by law from unjust discrimination. It calls for compassion.

The Church calls each of us to be as compassionate as Christ was. True Christian compassion does not entail condoning, much less endorsing, sinful actions. But it does involve loving everyone regardless of his sin. That’s what Christ does! He loves us even in when our sin is the darkest and deepest. We should be His light on the Earth. That does not mean that we say “oh yeah, homosexual actions are totally OK since God loves you anyway.” We should assert that God does indeed love them anyway, but explain in a caring and considerate way that homosexual actions do NOT show love for God.

See that’s the issue here. Finding a way to communicate to people that their sinful lifestyles do not glorify God while assuring them that God does indeed still love them and so do we is a very, very fine line. And yet it’s the line we are called to walk.

Think of it as how the Church’s members help the addicted. We show love for them, yes? We counsel them, yes? We assert that God loves them, right? But we underscore the point that their actions do not show love for God. It’s basically a one-way street. God never stops loving them, others don’t stop loving them, but THEY stop showing love for God and for themselves.

It’s a very tough sell and that’s why we should always start with simply showing those with same-sex attraction the love that God has for them. Only when we work ourselves into a position of trust will they be open to the message and know we’re coming from a place of love and not judgment.

 

[fix]

We absolutely should take back the terminology. But we should do so in a way that’s not designed to insult and castigate people who disagree. Just as it is wrong for same-sex marriage supporters to label those who oppose it as “bigots” it is likewise wrong for us to use terminology that demeans the other side.

I daresay deeming gay couples who have adopted children as “faux parents” is likely to be taken as hurtful.

They have no right to be offended. As for their emotional response that is not justification for claiming they are real parents. It is a form of violence against children.

 

[fix]

Mark,

I imagine it is possible to imagine to see someone without the sin…and I imagine as God looks down from heaven He sees better than I can…

I would imagine without the continued sinning that seeing the beauty of those lives would be a whole lot easier.

It was brilliant Mark…truly brilliant…

That is a good point and I would add the foundational problem is that some do not see this issue as grave as it really is. If they did they would not take the positions they take.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m guessing that basically everyone on this forum has lusted in some way or another. The vast majority have masturbated. A large percentage engaged in sex outside of marriage. I’m not presuming towards individuals by the way; I’m simply basing that on real statistics.

Kolbe is not saying that the Church needs to change its teaching. And I don’t say that either. I’m saying that members of the Church need to actually follow Christ’s example. The doctrine is sound. And the catechism calls for those with homosexual orientation to be protected by law from unjust discrimination. It calls for compassion.

The Church calls each of us to be as compassionate as Christ was. True Christian compassion does not entail condoning, much less endorsing, sinful actions. But it does involve loving everyone regardless of his sin. That’s what Christ does! He loves us even in when our sin is the darkest and deepest. We should be His light on the Earth. That does not mean that we say “oh yeah, homosexual actions are totally OK since God loves you anyway.” We should assert that God does indeed love them anyway, but explain in a caring and considerate way that homosexual actions do NOT show love for God.

See that’s the issue here. Finding a way to communicate to people that their sinful lifestyles do not glorify God while assuring them that God does indeed still love them and so do we is a very, very fine line. And yet it’s the line we are called to walk.

It’s a very tough sell and that’s why we should always start with simply showing those with same-sex attraction the love that God has for them. Only when we work ourselves into a position of trust will they be open to the message and know we’re coming from a place of love and not judgment.

Bucket,

Think of it as how the Church’s members help the addicted. We show love for them, yes? We counsel them, yes? We assert that God loves them, right? But we underscore the point that their actions do not show love for God. It’s basically a one-way street. God never stops loving them, others don’t stop loving them, but THEY stop showing love for God and for themselves.

Where do you find any post, any thread that any addict in their addiction is posting that we must understand them in their addiction.

Show me any posting any thread that you do not find any former addict that states that they have found solace and resolution.

Unfortunately there are voices that portray Grace, Mercy, God’s Will wanting us to understand that they have abandoned homosexuality, that they see sin in homosexuality…no wanting an embrace of someone in a monogamous homosexual relationship asking for understanding, blessings, acceptance…this is where the parallel falls apart.

 

[The_Bucket]

They have no right to be offended. As for their emotional response that is not justification for claiming they are real parents. It is a form of violence against children.

All three of those sentences are, without a doubt, crazy. And this is coming from a guy who does not support gay adoption.

 

[The_Bucket]

Where do you find any post, any thread that any addict in their addiction is posting that we must understand them in their addiction.

Go join the Impurity Addicts Support Group on these forums. See what it takes for an addict to break the cycle. The chief thing an addict needs to know is that someone out there loves them, even broken as they are.

I should know. I’m a recovering addict myself. I needed to know someone loved me because I hated myself. I felt totally alone and isolated despite having a family around me. I was embarrassed and ashamed and felt like an absolute failure. And I was! I was right to feel those things.

But there’s no pulling yourself up by the bootstraps when you’re that far down. You need a hand up. That’s where God comes in. You have to accept His love and surrender to His will. It’s tough to do that, however, barring a miraculous intervention. Typically one finds God’s love through the example of one of his followers.

What galls me is the few posters are approaching this issue without any sense of compassion. All “tough love” or “get in line” stuff. That’s not going to work. And that’s not what Christ said anyway. He said that tax collectors and prostitutes were getting into heaven before the high priests and scribes because they understood that they were sinners and needed God. Christ preached compassion. Real compassion. Non-judgmental compassion that closes with a soft “now go and do not sin anymore” despite knowing full well that those to whom he gave that command would indeed go and sin again!

There’s a massive difference between saying “sexual sin is not sin” and “we need to treat all sinners with the compassion of Christ.”

 

[CopticChristian]

We absolutely should take back the terminology. But we should do so in a way that’s not designed to insult and castigate people who disagree. QUOTE]

 

[The_Bucket]

Are heterosexual couples who shack up and have kids actual parents? How about single parents who like to hook up with random parents? What about deadbeat dads? Are they still actual parents? What about heterosexual MARRIED couples who use IVF and surrogate mothers? How about heterosexual married couples who use IVF, donor sperm and surrogate mothers but have legal custody?

You see what I’m saying? All of these cases involve grave sin, most of it grave sexual sin. So you’ve got people who are actively engaging in grave sexual sin and yet care for children. What strips away their rights as parents?

What about me? I was engaged in grave sexual sin and yet had two children. Am I outside the covenant because I was addicted to pornography and masturbation? Why is that different than people engaged in homosexual acts? Grave sin is grave sin and grave sexual sin is grave sexual sin!

You simply can’t make the judgment calls that you’re making.

 

[CopticChristian]

Are heterosexual couples who shack up and have kids actual parents? How about single parents who like to hook up with random parents? What about deadbeat dads? Are they still actual parents? What about heterosexual MARRIED couples who use IVF and surrogate mothers? How about heterosexual married couples who use IVF, donor sperm and surrogate mothers but have legal custody?

You see what I’m saying? All of these cases involve grave sin, most of it grave sexual sin. So you’ve got people who are actively engaging in grave sexual sin and yet care for children. What strips away their rights as parents?

What about me? I was engaged in grave sexual sin and yet had two children. Am I outside the covenant because I was addicted to pornography and masturbation? Why is that different than people engaged in homosexual acts? Grave sin is grave sin and grave sexual sin is grave sexual sin!

You simply can’t make the judgment calls that you’re making.

Bucket,

You simply can’t make the judgment calls that you’re making./

So you’ve got people who are actively engaging in grave sexual sin and yet care for children. What strips away their rights as parents?

Let us include this group with our inability to understand why anyone would want them to be parents as well.

Would you prefer that I or anyone else routinely include this group?

We should have threads “which homosexuals and other derelicts are incurable”…that may aid your concern.

 

[CopticChristian]

Go join the Impurity Addicts Support Group on these forums. See what it takes for an addict to break the cycle. The chief thing an addict needs to know is that someone out there loves them, even broken as they are.

I should know. I’m a recovering addict myself. I needed to know someone loved me because I hated myself. I felt totally alone and isolated despite having a family around me. I was embarrassed and ashamed and felt like an absolute failure. And I was! I was right to feel those things.

But there’s no pulling yourself up by the bootstraps when you’re that far down. You need a hand up. That’s where God comes in. You have to accept His love and surrender to His will. It’s tough to do that, however, barring a miraculous intervention. Typically one finds God’s love through the example of one of his followers.

What galls me is the few posters are approaching this issue without any sense of compassion. All “tough love” or “get in line” stuff. That’s not going to work. And that’s not what Christ said anyway. He said that tax collectors and prostitutes were getting into heaven before the high priests and scribes because they understood that they were sinners and needed God. Christ preached compassion. Real compassion. Non-judgmental compassion that closes with a soft “now go and do not sin anymore” despite knowing full well that those to whom he gave that command would indeed go and sin again!

There’s a massive difference between saying “sexual sin is not sin” and “we need to treat all sinners with the compassion of Christ.”

Bucket,

Go join the Impurity Addicts Support Group on these forums. See what it takes for an addict to break the cycle. The chief thing an addict needs to know is that someone out there loves them, even broken as they are.

Provide me a link. I may visit. My suspicion is that it will be filled with 12 step disciples that usually have little joy in what I say.

 

[The_Bucket]

Look, quite honestly I don’t see homosexuality as something that’s “cureable” in most or even many cases. There are some instances to be sure where someone has same-sex attraction due to negative events in childhood. I’m guessing, though I’m not a social scientist or therapist so I’m not sure, that those people would exhibit negative behaviors outside of merely engaging in homosexual relations. We’re talking about potential same-sex prostitution, promiscuity, etc.

I imagine that you far more often find that those who have same-sex attraction through no fault of external events are likely to have stable relationships and even family units. I wouldn’t consider them “derelicts” anymore than I would consider heterosexuals who live together and have children outside of marriage to be “derelicts.” Yes, they are guilty of grave sexual sin. I’m not downplaying that. I am, however, noting that chances are they do not understand that they are committing grave sin and therefore their culpability is reduced.

I only know if I’m committing mortal sin. It’s not a judgment I can make on anyone else.

 

[The_Bucket]

Provide me a link. I may visit. My suspicion is that it will be filled with 12 step disciples that usually have little joy in what I say.

It’s the second-largest group on these forums. It’s not difficult to find; right below “meet and talk, talk, talk” though you do have to be approved to join. Yes, there’s a lot of stressing of the 12 steps. It’s also totally Catholic.