Which Homosexuals Are "Incurable"?

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Kolbe300:
Kolbe,

Lets discuss this…for starters…

It is my opinion that too much effort is spent on what I call “appeals to authority”…

Where is the Science?
Licensed Professionals say?
Professional Associations say?
This Society says?
Prove it?

I believe that this is a good starting point.

Tell me what it is you believe is a source of information that can be trusted for information that is relevant?
 
CopticChristian said:
Mark,

This is CAF. My mind is ordered towards Catholic thinking based on

Profession of Faith
Sacramental Life
Life in Christ
Prayer…

You do not accept the entirety of the Creed One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church
You do not have valid Sacraments because you do not have a valid priesthood

Life in Christ demands you cannot violate any commandment or reside against any commandment to seek Holiness…

Your thinking is disordered towards revealed truth and therefore your thoughts and actions are not ordered to what I see as ordered.

You are welcome here. If you want acceptance of your philosophical contructs that see your thinking and actions as ordered towards what you percieve to be revealed truths then post on an Anglican site that accepts what you think and believe.
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You use the word “ordered” to refer to yourself, and “disordered” to refer to others. Yet, you claim to reject relativism. Do you understand the problem?
 
epan said:
You use the word “ordered” to refer to yourself, and “disordered” to refer to others. Yet, you claim to reject relativism. Do you understand the problem?
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Epan,

Welcome back. I pray you are safe in your work.
Yet, you claim to reject relativism.
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Explain your understanding of relativism, what it is that causes you to say this and how you conclude it is a problem as you stated. How is it you conclude I reject relativism?
 
CopticChristian said:
Epan,

Welcome back. I pray you are safe in your work.

Explain your understanding of relativism, what it is that causes you to say this and how you conclude it is a problem as you stated. How is it you conclude I reject relativism?
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So you don’t. Simple as that. Your thinking is ordered The thinking of those who disagree with you is disordered. How convenient for you. If you don’t understand relativism, a word which is commonly used on this site, and a very hot topic among Catholics, then do some research.
 
epan said:
So you don’t. Simple as that. Your thinking is ordered The thinking of those who disagree with you is disordered. How convenient for you. If you don’t understand relativism, a word which is commonly used on this site, and a very hot topic among Catholics, then do some research.
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Epan,

No. You choose not to discuss it. I did not bring it up, you did. I shall dismiss it.
 
epan said:
Good. I have reviewed your posts. You tend to be dismissed by informed and reasonable people.
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Epan,

I am ok with that. I have no intention of being accepted by everyone and when I am dismissed I stand in good company.
 
The_Bucket said:
I heartily concur. I understand the emphasis on this subject in many orthodox circles because it’s a topic being brought up in the secular world. Gay marriage is on the march, the homosexual lifestyle is not only condoned but celebrated in our culture. So it’s a relevant and timely topic.

But it’s not the only topic out there! We need not ignore the sin involved or even deflect away to another subject, but let’s not get so wrapped up in this subject just because the rest of the world is wrapped up in it! We laity in the world should not be of the world. And part of being counter-cultural is not letting the secular world dictate what we focus on.

That’s why I think the new evangelization is so wise. That’s why Pope Benedict was quite smart to emphasize 2013 as a Year of Faith. It’s a year to focus on the entire faith not just on the elements that the rest of the world wants to concentrate on.

No one is going to listen to us if all they hear is the condemnation first. Jesus did not demand repentance before he reached out to the prostitutes and tax collectors. He dined with them first. He showed them love first. It wasn’t until the end of his interactions with these people that he said “now go and do not sin anymore.” Does that mean that Christ somehow condoned their behavior? No way! He knew that these people, who were societal pariahs because of their own sinful actions, needed to experience love. He knew that they basically gave up on themselves and resigned themselves to sinful lives because they felt like they could never be loved by God or by His people.

We should absolutely not celebrate the “homosexual lifestyle.” But we need to follow Christ’s model in reaching out to these people. Show them love first and we’ll get to the “do not sin anymore” part later.
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Why do so few people get this?? I wasn’t brought to a realization that I needed to change my lifestyle by people telling me how “disordered” I was or how big a sinner I was, and how my sin was the worst sin in the universe, outranking all other sins that I knew darn well the people lecturing me either engaged in or condoned with silence. The people who did that probably extended my time away from God.

I ended my 10 year relationship, committed to a celibate life and returned to the Church because of people that loved me first. They showed me unconditional love, which allowed me to understand the unconditional love of God.

I get it, it’s good to have that “worse sinner” around so that no matter what you do you can point to how much worse they are…but if the real goal is to lead everyone to God that isn’t going to help.
 
Seeker1961 said:
Why do so few people get this?? I wasn’t brought to a realization that I needed to change my lifestyle by people telling me how “disordered” I was or how big a sinner I was, and how my sin was the worst sin in the universe, outranking all other sins that I knew darn well the people lecturing me either engaged in or condoned with silence. The people who did that probably extended my time away from God.

I ended my 10 year relationship, committed to a celibate life and returned to the Church because of people that loved me first. They showed me unconditional love, which allowed me to understand the unconditional love of God.

I get it, it’s good to have that “worse sinner” around so that no matter what you do you can point to how much worse they are…but if the real goal is to lead everyone to God that isn’t going to help.
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The huge mystery is why is this such a big topic around here. It really is time to move on, as the rest of the world is doing. Times have changed. Understanding of human nature and human sexuality has changed. “Natural Law” as understood in the 13th century is neither natural, nor is it law. Move on people.
 
CopticChristian said:
Kolbe,

Lets discuss this…for starters…

It is my opinion that too much effort is spent on what I call “appeals to authority”…

Where is the Science?
Licensed Professionals say?
Professional Associations say?
This Society says?
Prove it?

I believe that this is a good starting point.

Tell me what it is you believe is a source of information that can be trusted for information that is relevant?
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Coptic, why will you not address the questions I’ve posed to you three times now? I’m asking you a couple questions based upon information in a link you provided. I’ll try it one more time:
Kolbe300 said:
The piece you provided says that this gay-to-straight type of therapy helps reduce “symptoms” in 30% of cases. And “symptoms” disappear in another 30% of cases. I’m not exactly sure what a reduction in symptoms really means. If one is still attracted to the same sex, but a little less so, they’re still attracted to the same sex. I’ll leave the explaining of that up to those who have experienced it.

Here’s the question I have: If 30% of gay men who seek this therapy discover complete change in their sexual orientation (according to what you posted), that leaves 70% who don’t. In other words, the overwhelming majority.

What should we do for them? If most of the men who undergo therapy don’t come out heterosexual, what should we tell them? Do we tell them they didn’t work hard enough at it? Do we tell them to keep going until they’re one of the 30%?

Or can we tell them that there is a place in our Church fit for them? Can we tell them that a beautiful life can be lived, even for a homosexual person? I can do that. I can tell them that with ease. Can you? Are you even willing to try?
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Seeker1961 said:
Why do so few people get this?? I wasn’t brought to a realization that I needed to change my lifestyle by people telling me how “disordered” I was or how big a sinner I was, and how my sin was the worst sin in the universe, outranking all other sins that I knew darn well the people lecturing me either engaged in or condoned with silence. The people who did that probably extended my time away from God.

I ended my 10 year relationship, committed to a celibate life and returned to the Church because of people that loved me first. They showed me unconditional love, which allowed me to understand the unconditional love of God.

I get it, it’s good to have that “worse sinner” around so that no matter what you do you can point to how much worse they are…but if the real goal is to lead everyone to God that isn’t going to help.
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Seeker,

You are one person. This does not translate to the world experience. Tragically these experiences become…

2% of this
20% that
78% those

etc…

It is relevant to you, relevant to a discussion, but in consideration that there is more discussion needed, that many want to silence it is difficult to say…Ok I get it…

No, okay, I get you…
 
CopticChristian said:
Seeker,

You are one person. This does not translate to the world experience. Tragically these experiences become…

2% of this
20% that
78% those

etc…

It is relevant to you, relevant to a discussion, but in consideration that there is more discussion needed, that many want to silence it is difficult to say…Ok I get it…

No, okay, I get you…
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Straight from the keyboard of the master of misdirection and avoidance of direct questions. There is your answer.
 
epan said:
The huge mystery is why is this such a big topic around here. It really is time to move on, as the rest of the world is doing. Times have changed. Understanding of human nature and human sexuality has changed. “Natural Law” as understood in the 13th century is neither natural, nor is it law. Move on people.
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Epan,

August 2012 you posted…
This is suspected of those who over-react to gay issues, not of the ordinary person who just goes about his or her life and doesn’t have particularly strong feelings on the topic. Those who are obsessed with the topic are often actually gay. I doubt that any gay person would claim that most people are “secretly gay”.
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You started this thread on the California case against Nicolosi
Looks like the beginning of the end of this practice:
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cnn.com/2012/10/01/us/cal…ban/index.html
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Today, 9 of your posts have to do with homosexuality…

Might you consider taking your own advice and move on?
 
epan said:
Straight from the keyboard of the master of misdirection and avoidance of direct questions. There is your answer.
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Epan,

In a previous post you said this…
Good. I have reviewed your posts. You tend to be dismissed by informed and reasonable people.
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I can conclude that you are not among the reasonable people since you did not dismiss me and responded. Whao…had me worried.

You still fail to respond as to what this means however you want to spin the numbers…who is misdirecting who? Who is avoiding a direct question.

Epan…what does this mean to you?
 
fix said:
The context of this issue is this forum. It is about folks who stop by here and constantly either argue against Church teachings or subtly try to undermine Her teachings. These folks get responses. Mostly the reply to these responses fall into two broad categories.

The first category is that the Church is wrong because of …Inquisitions, Galileo, Usury, Slavery, and the like. The second broad category are those that claim the tone or wording is uncharitable, hate-filled, you know the usual charges.

The second category tries to divert the truth of the moral arguments by individualizing things to some “gay” person or persons who are being “driven away” by these mean Jansenist Catholics who are rigorists and have no compassion for the poor struggling sinner. Those who charge that never seem to mention the constant attack on culture by those who want to dismantle marriage, the family, and impose their ideology like a cudgel. Instead of answering the moral arguments they try and impose an emotionalism disguised with bible quotes so as to avoid the tough arguments by claiming lack of charity.

Now here is what the Church says about some of this:
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Thanks Fix,

You explain it better than I could. That is some of what I was trying to get across.
GB
 
CopticChristian said:
Epan,

In a previous post you said this…

I can conclude that you are not among the reasonable people since you did not dismiss me and responded. Whao…had me worried.
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Cute. We know where you stand Coptic. You make your point. When you get cornered you use misdirection and accusation. This discussion is pointless.
 
Seeker1961 said:
The people who did that probably extended my time away from God.

I ended my 10 year relationship, committed to a celibate life and returned to the Church because of people that loved me first. They showed me unconditional love, which allowed me to understand the unconditional love of God.
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Right, exactly! That’s my point. I’m not with epan in terms of “get with the program Catholic Church and change.” Universal truth is unchangeable. What is good and what is evil has never changed because God is unchangeable.

Homosexual acts are not right today because everyone says they are right. And they were not wrong because 50 years ago because everyone said it was wrong. They’re wrong because of God’s design for humanity, plain and simple.

But just because we have universal Truth on our side does not give us the right to shove other people’s faces into it. And it’s an idiotic plan to do that anyway because people are usually pretty darn resistant to being coerced or threatened or degraded into believing something.

By all means let’s preach the Gospel. By all means let’s not sugar-coat the fact that homosexual acts are wrong. And let’s not forget that, guess what, so is contraception, sex before marriage, excess greed, selfishness, anger and a whole host of other things. It’s even wrong to be excessively angry at people who throw the accusations of bigotry at the Church! Christ turned his other cheek when insulted. He never stopped speaking the Truth and yet when confronted by the authorities of his day, he was meek. It took contrived outrage on the part of the high priests to have Him sent to Pilate.

Where is our meekness? Where is our humility? Since when is following Christ’s example of gentleness and humility a failure to stand up for what is right?

Trust me, I’ve been as fire and brimstone as anyone over the course of my life. I loved to pass judgment on people and castigate others for their sins and refuse to associate with certain people because we held polar opposite beliefs in terms of religiosity and politics. But where was the mirror in front of me? It did not exist! I was so busy slamming other people, even if it was in my own mind, that I ignored the sin in my own life. I was blocking it out and not recognizing that my own sin was preventing me from bringing the Gospel to anyone. I finally had the mirror turned back around on me over the last year and it’s brought with it fresh perspective on how to reach out to others and spread the Gospel to all people.
 
epan said:
Cute. We know where you stand Coptic. You make your point. When you get cornered you use misdirection and accusation. This discussion is pointless.
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Epan,

You may want to look into what is called “reframing”…you can study this and one expert in the field is Robert Dilts. He wrote on this and explains how we conversationaly reframe. Accusation?

I took your statement, that you said, having reviewed the reasonable people that dismiss me…you chose not to dismiss me…what is it you conclude other than accusation.

Either dismiss me or don’t.
 
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