Which is better: kids growing up in a foster home or kids growing up with gay parents?

[sweetpealover]

In reply to estesbob post I must disagree with your statement. Everything I have heard or read about on this subject all agree that a homosexual couple usually will strive to let the child alone decide which way they want to go. Of course all prospective homes should be frequently and completely investigated and documented follow-up visits randomly held. Of course this would require more manpower which costs money we don’t have.

As I see it there is not one single answer to this delima and everything here is not totally black and white either. :twocents:

 

[Elizabeth502]

In reply to estesbob post I must disagree with your statement. Everything I have heard or read about on this subject all agree that a homosexual couple usually will strive to let the child alone decide which way they want to go.

I don’t believe this is what estesbob is saying. I believe what he is saying is that the norm of sexual behavior in that home will be the homosexual norm, without the couple saying one word, without any attempt to formally state it or propose it as the norm. It simply is. This is the child’s standard of sexual behavior: homosexual, not heterosexual.

If one were to grow up in a home where absolutely every social contact was a relative, the child might assume that all nuclear families socialize only with blood relatives, and with no one else. I have met families like this, so this is not a stretch.

You take your primary norms from your family of birth (or of household).

 

[vz71]

In reply to estesbob post I must disagree with your statement. Everything I have heard or read about on this subject all agree that a homosexual couple usually will strive to let the child alone decide which way they want to go. Of course all prospective homes should be frequently and completely investigated and documented follow-up visits randomly held. Of course this would require more manpower which costs money we don’t have.

No matter what, the homosexual couple is what they are.
A couple living in a state of serious sin.

Since this state of serious sin is the norm in the house, any child growing up in that atmosphere will be subjected to an environment that approves of this serious sin.

Approval of this serious sin is what disqualifies the homosexual couple.

 

[estesbob]

In reply to estesbob post I must disagree with your statement. Everything I have heard or read about on this subject all agree that a homosexual couple usually will strive to let the child alone decide which way they want to go. Of course all prospective homes should be frequently and completely investigated and documented follow-up visits randomly held. Of course this would require more manpower which costs money we don’t have.

As I see it there is not one single answer to this delima and everything here is not totally black and white either. :twocents:

Whether having homosexual parents leads to a greater chance one will engage in homosexual behavior is debateable. The FACT that the “children” of a homosexual couple will be exposed on a daily basis to grevious sin is not.

 

[Lethe]

Or, y’ know, we could have more straight couples be willing to adopt kids, rather than insisting on what Psycho Mantis called “the selfish, atavistic desire to pass on one’s genes.”

Agreed. I think many people have children for selfish reasons, like wanting a ‘mini me’ or just having a biolgical urge.

Also - stable, loving parents are better than not having stable, loving parents. Whatever gender. Imagine never having that background, never having anyone you can rely on, or who you know loves you. Gay parents are far better than that.

And people criticise them like theyre committing sodomy right in front of the kids… I dont think what they do in the bedroom would actually have much of an effect on their children- doesnt for (decent) hetero couples, except the addition of siblings(!)

 

[Elizabeth502]

Agreed. I think many people have children for selfish reasons, like wanting a ‘mini me’ or just having a biolgical urge.

You think that deiberately depriving an innocent child of one gender is not selfish?

Wow. Just wow.

Lots of children would disagree with that assumption.

Also - stable, loving parents are better than not having stable, loving parents. Whatever gender. Imagine never having that background, never having anyone you can rely on, or who you know loves you. Gay parents are far better than that.

This is one of the huge myths put out by the gay lobby. Not only is there no evidence that “gays are more reliable,” the evidence is that, on average, after 5 years of being together, gays begin seeking additional partners, and the deep dissatisfaction that results from an instrinsically incomplete relationship (confined to one gender, which cannot satisfy the hunger for genuine relationality) begins to show in the relationship and in the diversions sought from that relationship. The myth of the “perfection” of homosexual coupling is nothing more than a sales job. Convenient propaganda with no evidence of its being even as good as heterosexual relationships, let alone “better.” Promiscuity, restlessness, and emptiness, characterizes more homosexual relationships than not. That is hardly a healthy home for a child. It’s just a different kind of unhealthiness than an imperfect heterosexual foster home. Trading one unhappiness for another.

 

[Holly3278]

Only people that never spent time in a foster home would recommend one.

I’d a lot rather have had loving gay parents, than foster parents any day. Gay people do NOT teach their children that being Gay is the preferred way of life. They also don’t seduce children (almost all child molesters are heterosexual).

Gay couples may not try to teach their children that being gay is the preferred way of life but you have to realize that children are often taught by example as well. The example of two gay people raising children is definitely not a good one. Gay couples should not raise children. I strongly prefer that any children would be raised in foster home as opposed to a gay couple’s home.

 

[Lethe]

You think that deiberately depriving an innocent child of one gender is not selfish?

Wow. Just wow.

Lots of children would disagree with that assumption.

Except that a mother and father are not the only people in a child’s life… I don’t think of it as depriving a child of one gender, because they will still have role models of the other gender around them - grandparents, aunts, uncles, older cousins, parents’ friends etc. I think it is still better than switching between foster parents continually, or living in a home.

This is one of the huge myths put out by the gay lobby. Not only is there no evidence that “gays are more reliable,” the evidence is that, on average, after 5 years of being together, gays begin seeking additional partners, and the deep dissatisfaction that results from an instrinsically incomplete relationship (confined to one gender, which cannot satisfy the hunger for genuine relationality) begins to show in the relationship and in the diversions sought from that relationship. The myth of the “perfection” of homosexual coupling is nothing more than a sales job. Convenient propaganda with no evidence of its being even as good as heterosexual relationships, **let alone “better.” ** Promiscuity, restlessness, and emptiness, characterizes more homosexual relationships than not. That is hardly a healthy home for a child. It’s just a different kind of unhealthiness than an imperfect heterosexual foster home. Trading one unhappiness for another.

What evidence are you referencing? I’m not going to believe you just on some asserted evidence without any sources.

I probably have a lot more direct experience of ‘the homosexual community’ than you do, and this is not my experience. Homosexual couples are about the same regarding loyalty as most secular heterosexual couples, from what I have experienced. Now, of course, you may have higher standards for monogamy, I would expect that you do - but I dont think it is the same sex attraction that causes this instability, but our general Western culture regarding sex. And there are many (straight) adoptive parents who share this culture and are not religious.

I never said homosexual relationships are better than hetero ones - I said theyre potentially better than childrens homes/foster homes.

 

[vz71]

Except that a mother and father are not the only people in a child’s life… I don’t think of it as depriving a child of one gender, because they will still have role models of the other gender around them - grandparents, aunts, uncles, older cousins, parents’ friends etc. I think it is still better than switching between foster parents continually, or living in a home.

So between two female homosexuals, who provides the role of father?
Same with two male homosexuals…who is the mother?

 

[vz71]

I probably have a lot more direct experience of ‘the homosexual community’ than you do, and this is not my experience. Homosexual couples are about the same regarding loyalty as most secular heterosexual couples, from what I have experienced. Now, of course, you may have higher standards for monogamy, I would expect that you do - but I dont think it is the same sex attraction that causes this instability, but our general Western culture regarding sex.

Wow.
You make the case for us.

Homosexual relationships are not the monogomous ones that have been prtrayed earlier.
And it is an instability.

So why exactly would someone think an unstable environment is a place to raise kids?

 

[Elizabeth502]

I never said homosexual relationships are better than hetero ones - I said theyre potentially better than childrens homes/foster homes.

No you didn’t.

Also - stable, loving parents are better than not having stable, loving parents. Whatever gender. Imagine never having that background, never having anyone you can rely on, or who you know loves you. Gay parents are far better than that.

“Better” and even “far better.”

 

[Elizabeth502]

Except that a mother and father are not the only people in a child’s life… I don’t think of it as depriving a child of one gender, because they will still have role models of the other gender around them - grandparents, aunts, uncles, older cousins, parents’ friends etc.

Those are not the primary role models. Children both consciously and unconsciously derive their identities from those identified as their parents. It is very rare for it to be otherwise. The latter are often situations in which the legal parents/guardians are so negligent, abusive, absent, or emotionally incapacitated that the child consciously and actively seeks surrogate parent figures and attaches to that person or those people in contradistinction. Typically those are also situations in which the child absents himself from his legal home temporarily or permanently, such as running away, such as approved stays with such authority figures, etc.

Alternatively, such a situation can arise when there is truly a live-in additional or surrogate parent figure, such as has happened in heterosexual households where an unrelated nanny, or a relative such as a grandmother, is not only present, but rather active in the actual raising of the child. None of those examples fits the ‘gay-parent’ household which is being discussed.

 

[Eugenius]

This thread has given me a lot to think about. I see a lot of shades of gray and if given the opportunity to vote on it, I would have to make the decision on a case-by-case basis. God can still work his grace through sinful people, regardless of their sin. Look at St. Augustine, King David, Moses…all sinful people, not one perfect. I’m also reminded of the verses in the Bible that tell us to love God with all our heart, body, soul and mind. Nowhere does the Bible to tell us you have to come from ideal families or prescribe what makes a perfect role model. Sometimes it seems that the “family” has become a form of idolatry to some people and it leads them to bear false witness against others.

I work with a boss who attends an evangelical, bible thumping church. Her husband cheated on her after sixteen years of marriage. Their oldest son is divorced. Their second son is an abusive, alcoholic husband. His wife is a liar, steals from him and her parents, and is now sleeping around and wanting a divorce. The third son is almost thirty and is co-habitating with a woman. The sons do not attend church. I doubt these people would be seen as ideal foster parents.

Compare these to the lesbian couple that used to live down the street from me with their adopted children. They attend a liberal “welcome to all” church, which they attend weekly and take the children. If it were not for these two women, those kids might well never have had exposure to a church or known who Jesus Christ is. Role models? I would say so.

Not long after they adopted the first three children, the mother contacted them to tell them she had had another child (yep, fathered by yet another man) and asked if they would adopt him too. These two woman felt strongly about keeping these children together as a family, so they adopted this fourth one too, even though they had to sell their home and move to a less expensive area so they could afford the increased financial responsibility.

Through these woman I have met several homosexual couples who have been together, monogamously, for long periods of time. Ten, fifteen, even forty years and longer are not uncommon. On the other hand statistics show that around 50% of the heterosexual population has been long divorced by that time. Not exactly what I would call a huge success for heterosexuals I’m sorry to say.

So how do you judge these situations? As I said earlier, I try to remember that God is still able to work wondrous deeds through these situations.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Just as exceptions make bad case law, so do exceptions not prove the rule. We can all find colorful anecdotes, I’m sure.

In the case of male homosexual couples, it is the exception that the couple remains monogamous “for ten, fifteen, forty years.” The pattern is an openly promiscuous relationship after five years, maximum. I linked an example awhile ago on another thread, of a survey in which gay men were only all too eager to proclaim how “wonderful” promiscuity was in their “marriage”

It has also seemed to me for quite some time that the screening for foster parents is pretty abysmal. I have heard of some good foster parents, as well, but I have heard too many stories of the opposite. Even if this represents a minority of cases, it appears to be a significant minority. It would be better for foster children to be put in a well-run, nurturing institutional setting than in a compromised private one. Do we need more of those? Perhaps. It doesn’t seem acceptable to have low standards for foster parents when there are much higher standards for adoption. I know the rationale is that the children need “a” home, but it makes no sense to go from bad to bad, let alone bad to worse.

Nevertheless, it doesn’t help to argue between false positives and false negatives. If, in examining “case-by-case,” the choice is a bad foster home vs. a gay couple (not a single gay individual), all that is happening is trading one compromised, unhealthy household situation for another compromised, unhealthy household situation.

 

[Lethe]

So between two female homosexuals, who provides the role of father?
Same with two male homosexuals…who is the mother?

There isn’t one. I see your point, don’t get me wrong, but not having a father/mother is not the same as ‘depriving the child of one gender.’ It is depriving them of a father or mother. suppose we will find out what effects this has - there are certainly going to be future examples, such as Elton John’s child. Though I am more concerned in his case about his age than his sexuality.

Wow.
You make the case for us.

Homosexual relationships are not the monogomous ones that have been prtrayed earlier.
And it is an instability.

So why exactly would someone think an unstable environment is a place to raise kids?

Homosexual relationships are perfectly able to be monogamous, just as heterosexual ones are (and, often, are not.) In the past, homosexual couples have had no way of publicly committing to one another. Now they do, I am interested to find out whether they are or are not as stable, lifelong, as straight partnerships. And I dont think anyone can claim to be sure either way. There is no solid evidence (yet.)

My point is that from what many have said about foster care and children’s homes, including previous foster children themselves, it is better to be in a family than not to be. This, I imagine, would include even being in a family which experiences divorce at some point. It is still better than being in a home/foster care. These are real children, and this is the real world, and whilst I know the ideal is to have each child placed with a straight (happily) married couple; if not enough straight married couples want to adopt children, it is better to seek other alternatives to having them grow up in a home.

I think. Interested to hear, though, from anyone on here who’s been fostered/grew up in a home. If you disagree, please say, because you’re really the only people who can truly know…

 

[Elizabeth502]

There isn’t one. I see your point, don’t get me wrong, but not having a father/mother is not the same as ‘depriving the child of one gender.’ It is depriving them of a father or mother.

Which is serious. And they are deprived. One gender is eliminated as a primary caregiver. No tricks with words can change that.
And only those who have been deprived of a father or a mother – whether by early death or deliberate exclusion of the other gender, so that there was essentially no experience of the other parental figure – can testify to the pain and loss that has resulted. (Divorce is a different situation, because generally there is still contact with the parent of the other gender.)

Homosexual relationships are perfectly able to be monogamous,

But male homosexual relationships choose not to be. That is one of the major points here.

In the past, homosexual couples have had no way of publicly committing to one another. Now they do, I am interested to find out whether they are or are not as stable, lifelong, as straight partnerships. And I dont think anyone can claim to be sure either way. There is no solid evidence (yet.)

That’s merely because you refuse to read the evidence. In San Francisco, where the Mayor decided he was King and proclaimed gay marriages as “constitutional” (whoops, I guess he’s a self-appointed judge, too), hundreds of gay couples were “married,” and it is this speicific group – “publicly committed to one another” – that now mock that commitment by living “Open Marriages.”

My point is that from what many have said about foster care and children’s homes, including previous foster children themselves, it is better to be in a family than not to be.

Two women and a child is not a family. It’s a pretend family. Same for two men and a child with a wink/wink ‘open marriage.’

This, I imagine, would include even being in a family which experiences divorce at some point.

While I don’t have experience in a foster home, I do have experience in a home where divorce was considered earlier than when it finally did occur, at which time I was thankfully in college, having moved away. Even that was traumatic for me, particularly because my parents’ pain was vivid to me at that moment, but I do know that they postponed the divorce as long as possible for the sake of the children and I am extremely grateful that they did so. The person who suffered most was my younger brother, the only child still at home after the divorce. He suffered terribly from a household where both parents were not present. All of us preferred the intact but troubled marriage of my parents because we were all conscious of needing both a real (not pretend) mother and a real (not pretend) father.

I do think the financial incentives for foster parents need to be changed somehow. Perhaps they should only be recompensed after a successful period of time, judged both by length and by quality of care; perhaps funds for the costs of childcare/ sustenance/education should be administered and overseen more directly by the state; and certainly screening for placement should be improved in content and frequency, and if found inadequate, then I still say that institutional care that is at least neutral, if ‘impersonal’, would be better than some of the abusive and negligent situations described here. But the “solution” is not gay adoption. And by the way, I don’t see lots of gay couples lining up to take foster children, either. The vast majority of them seek artificial methods of “reproducing,” or they seek adoption agencies.

 

[vz71]

Homosexual relationships are perfectly able to be monogamous, just as heterosexual ones are (and, often, are not.)

Your words, not mine…
Homosexual relationships are not monogomous:

Homosexual couples are about the same regarding loyalty as most secular heterosexual couples, from what I have experienced. Now, of course, you may have higher standards for monogamy, I would expect that you do - but I dont think it is the same sex attraction that causes this instability, but our general Western culture regarding sex.

In the past, homosexual couples have had no way of publicly committing to one another. Now they do, I am interested to find out whether they are or are not as stable, lifelong, as straight partnerships.

I am not interested in experimenting with the lives of children.
The homosexual couple is unstable (your words) as well as a sinful relationship.
Both of these provide ample evidence that they should not be raising children.

 

[za91]

In the case of male homosexual couples, it is the exception that the couple remains monogamous “for ten, fifteen, forty years.” The pattern is an openly promiscuous relationship after five years, maximum. I linked an example awhile ago on another thread, of a survey in which gay men were only all too eager to proclaim how “wonderful” promiscuity was in their “marriage”

Any evidence to support this claim?

 

[Elizabeth502]

Any evidence to support this claim?

Yes. As I’ve said probably twice now, do a search on CAF. It’s in one of my many posts on the subject. Those who want evidence are the ones required to search for what has already been provided.

 

[za91]

Yes. As I’ve said probably twice now, do a search on CAF. It’s in one of my many posts on the subject. Those who want evidence are the ones required to search for what has already been provided.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.

The only reason I am asking is that I did do a search, but couldn’t find the information you are talking about.