Which is more effective: Prayer or Action?

[GreggAlvarez]

To be honest Julia, I think prayers are a person talking to him/herself but thinking that they are talking to a high powerful being, I think of prayers is when we think we are doing everything while in fact we are changing nothing.

I suppose now we are at an impasse, unless we start talking about the existence of this “high powerful being”. But I think that topic is banned. I could be mistaken, which is more often than not.

Charlemagne, your wife is a person, no doubts people exist, but there is lots of doubts about invisible powerful beings.

In your mind, if God did exist, would you consider God an “It”, “Him”, “Her” or none of the above? Would you even consider God a “Person”?

Or would you even care that He did exist (if He existed)?

I ask because this is completely relevant to the topic of prayer (which is relevant to the topic of the thread) among other things being discussed.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Flying

**Charlemagne, your wife is a person, no doubts people exist, but there is lots of doubts about invisible powerful beings. **

Yes, there are such doubts. But that these doubts produce confusion should not be taken as proof that God does not exist.

Clearly, if God exists, there would have to be a modicum of confusion about Him, not only for the faithful, but even more so for the unbeliever. Knowing the mind of God is not easy! It isn’t supposed to be if the mind of the creature is finite and the Mind of God is Infinite.

Yet God reveals as much about Himself as we need to know. That we are greedy for more knowledge comes at a price … the price of having to love Him, which is the only meaningful way to know Him.

If you doubt this, ask your wife.

 

[Nate13]

I voted prayer, because action without prayer is doomed for failure.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Nate
**
I voted prayer, because action without prayer is doomed for failure. **

Would it be just as true that prayer without action is doomed to failure?

 

[Flyingg]

I suppose now we are at an impasse, unless we start talking about the existence of this “high powerful being”. But I think that topic is banned. I could be mistaken, which is more often than not.

In your mind, if God did exist, would you consider God an “It”, “Him”, “Her” or none of the above? Would you even consider God a “Person”?

Or would you even care that He did exist (if He existed)?

I ask because this is completely relevant to the topic of prayer (which is relevant to the topic of the thread) among other things being discussed.

I don’t consider God to be he or she, I don’t think god would have a biological nature to be considered as he or she, and of course I care to know if a god exists or not, I’m an atheist not a careless.

 

[Flyingg]

Flying

**Charlemagne, your wife is a person, no doubts people exist, but there is lots of doubts about invisible powerful beings. **

Yes, there are such doubts. But that these doubts produce confusion should not be taken as proof that God does not exist.

Clearly, if God exists, there would have to be a modicum of confusion about Him, not only for the faithful, but even more so for the unbeliever. Knowing the mind of God is not easy! It isn’t supposed to be if the mind of the creature is finite and the Mind of God is Infinite.

Yet God reveals as much about Himself as we need to know. That we are greedy for more knowledge comes at a price … the price of having to love Him, which is the only meaningful way to know Him.

If you doubt this, ask your wife.

Agree on everyone needs to know the mind of a creator if it exists, but I don’t agree that he exists or even revealing himself, which leads me to think that he’s not there, even if a God exist I’m far from believing in personal gods or religions. Atheists are agnostic atheists.

 

[Nate13]

Nate
**
I voted prayer, because action without prayer is doomed for failure. **

Would it be just as true that prayer without action is doomed to failure?

No, because not all miracles require action assuming you don’t consider prayer an action The question is kind of a misnomer.

 

[Charlemagne_II]

Nate
**
No, because not all miracles require action assuming you don’t consider prayer an action**

Now that you mention it, prayer does seem to be an action, as in when we pray for the living and the dead, or the prayers of the faithful at Mass. Or if we have a prayer ministry dedicated to a certain cause, such as prisoners or the unborn. That is certainly a work of ministering to those in need … as much as visiting prisoners in prison or counseling a mother to keep her child out of the abortionist’s killing reach.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

I don’t consider God to be he or she, I don’t think god would have a biological nature to be considered as he or she, and of course I care to know if a god exists or not, I’m an atheist not a careless.

While I am no expert on the subject, I must still posit this question: is gender limited to persons with biological nature? Do you call your deceased relatives neither him or her? After all, they no longer have biological natures.

It is my understanding that atheists believe that death means that the person no longer exists. While their biological make-up is still there, the person no longer exists. I say this because I have debated many atheists on the Resurrection. Once I get as far as convincing them about the evidence of the Resurrection (whether or not they agree with the conclusion of that evidence, they at least see it a reasonable conclusion), they then posit that Christ never died because of the definition of what death is. They then proceed to define death for me.

If this is not your belief, then I just wasted my time.

Gotcha on the atheist/careless thing. I didn’t mean that you didn’t care. What I meant was: would you care THAT God existed? Not “would you care IF God existed?”

Know what I mean? I know my posts are really scattered. I apologize for that. It took me 5 semesters to pass English 101. Just FYInfo.

I have a feeling we are not getting anywhere (nor will we ever get anywhere) on this prayer talk… You think we are talking to nobody and we think the opposite. What do you think?

 

[Flyingg]

While I am no expert on the subject, I must still posit this question: is gender limited to persons with biological nature? Do you call your deceased relatives neither him or her? After all, they no longer have biological natures.

It is my understanding that atheists believe that death means that the person no longer exists. While their biological make-up is still there, the person no longer exists. I say this because I have debated many atheists on the Resurrection. Once I get as far as convincing them about the evidence of the Resurrection (whether or not they agree with the conclusion of that evidence, they at least see it a reasonable conclusion), they then posit that Christ never died because of the definition of what death is. They then proceed to define death for me.

If this is not your belief, then I just wasted my time.

Gotcha on the atheist/careless thing. I didn’t mean that you didn’t care. What I meant was: would you care THAT God existed? Not “would you care IF God existed?”

Know what I mean? I know my posts are really scattered. I apologize for that. It took me 5 semesters to pass English 101. Just FYInfo.

I have a feeling we are not getting anywhere (nor will we ever get anywhere) on this prayer talk… You think we are talking to nobody and we think the opposite. What do you think?

About dead people, when we talk she or he, it means what they were before their death. Yes atheists don’t believe in another life, at least most atheists including me, now I think there may be some atheists who are spiritual and explain the existence of another life as sort of transmitted energy, or other concepts for it I’m not sure about.

What the difference in what you said between That and If? sorry I’m not so much into english.
I’m not saying that I know or understand everything, we should make progress for more knowledge, but the difference between me and you is that you believe in religions and personal creators while I don’t.

 

[Julia_Mae]

While I am no expert on the subject, I must still posit this question: is gender limited to persons with biological nature? Do you call your deceased relatives neither him or her? After all, they no longer have biological natures.

Matthew 22:

“Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies* without children, his brother shall marry his wife and raise up descendants for his brother.’ 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first married and died and, having no descendants, left his wife to his brother. 26
The same happened with the second and the third, through all seven. 27 Finally the woman died. 28 Now at the resurrection, of the seven, whose wife will she be? For they all had been married to her.” 29 * Jesus said to them in reply, “You are misled because you do not know the scriptures or the power of God. 30 At the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage but are like the angels in heaven.

As to God, we have our own ways of conceiving and perceiving God, and so we often prescribe gender. Wisdom in the OT was thought to be female, but also Divine. OTOH, there are Jewish conceptions of God complete with male genitalia. Someplace in Galatians Paul says in Christ we are neither male nor female.

IMO gender is entirely a function of biology. That being said, I have no problem whatsoever with Mary as Mother or Jesus as Brother and Lord and my God. But I think these things are less about gender than about relationship.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

About dead people, when we talk she or he, it means what they were before their death. Yes atheists don’t believe in another life, at least most atheists including me, now I think there may be some atheists who are spiritual and explain the existence of another life as sort of transmitted energy, or other concepts for it I’m not sure about.

I understand.

But what are they now? I am just curious what your opinion is.

What the difference in what you said between That and If? sorry I’m not so much into english.

I have no clue. That was just more of my useless gibberish.

I’m not saying that I know or understand everything, we should make progress for more knowledge, but the difference between me and you is that you believe in religions and personal creators while I don’t.

True… (I don’t believe in religions, but that’s a minor detail. I knew what you meant. I think…)

So, now what? When I talk about prayer, I assume God does exist. The opposite for you… It always comes down to God existing or not.

What else could we discuss in accordance with the thread topic?

 

[Julia_Mae]

True… (I don’t believe in religions…

So you are not “Catholic” as it says in your profile?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

So you are not “Catholic” as it says in your profile?

Indeed, I am a Catholic.

Granted, I am not the most faithful; by far, I am the worst Catholic there is. But I sure am a Catholic.

I said that because of the word “religions”. It was in its plural form. And while I do believe that Catholicism is a religion in its most technical sense, I believe that Catholicism soars above religions.

Religions are man’s attempts at grasping the divine, so they have to make stuff up that most correlates with their perception of reality. Therefore, it is flawed by nature of humanity. (This is not the dictionary definition of the word “religion”.)

I don’t believe that about the Catholic Church. I believe the Catholic Church is God’s way of “finding” us (for my lack of better words). He shows Himself in the Sacraments of the Church and freely gives His abundant graces to us through His Church, the Liturgy and Sacred Tradition. Therefore, since it is God’s Church (and Christ did indeed build it), it is perfect and holy. Because we did not create the Church, it is not bound by the limitations of our human nature.

So, what is my religion? I am a Catholic. Do I believe Catholicism to be a religion? No. Catholicism is just the -ism word used to represent the Catholic Church.

This is just my opinion. If we brought out the dictionaries, I would agree that Catholicism is another religion (as well as atheism, but that is my opinion).

I have no qualms calling Catholicism a religion though. The above is just my opinion. I am sure Catholics might disagree with me on it which is fine. But this is certain: I do not believe in all religions.

As a disclaimer, what I said about religions above is only my opinion. If anybody is to throw that in my face and say that I think Catholicism is made-up, that person will be subject to rational scrutiny.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Indeed, I am a Catholic.

Granted, I am not the most faithful; by far, I am the worst Catholic there is. But I sure am a Catholic.

I said that because of the word “religions”. It was in its plural form. And while I do believe that Catholicism is a religion in its most technical sense, I believe that Catholicism soars above religions.

Thanks so much. Actually, you sound like me about the religion/Catholic thing. I thought for a moment you might have meant “universal” when you said Catholic, like non-denominational or something, so I asked.

 

[Flyingg]

I understand.

But what are they now? I am just curious what your opinion is.

I have no clue. That was just more of my useless gibberish.

True… (I don’t believe in religions, but that’s a minor detail. I knew what you meant. I think…)

So, now what? When I talk about prayer, I assume God does exist. The opposite for you… It always comes down to God existing or not.

What else could we discuss in accordance with the thread topic?

You mean about dead people? I guess they are dead after all.

I dunno, what thing we can discuss? Usually discussions in thread com out without a question of what topic we should discuss

Ok a question since you believe in “God”, do you think all prayers are listened to whatever the person religion is, if a polytheist is praying on his own, do you think “the Catholic God” listen to that person prayers?
And if a prayer is a communication with god ( as a father ), why there is rosaries, or prayers that people repeat, isn’t it better to say what is only on your mind and not something that is repeated?

 

[GreggAlvarez]

Thanks so much. Actually, you sound like me about the religion/Catholic thing. I thought for a moment you might have meant “universal” when you said Catholic, like non-denominational or something, so I asked.

Thank you for asking. I am a Catholic that belongs to the Body of Christ, “the pillar and foundation” of God’s Truth, the Catholic Church.

 

[GreggAlvarez]

You mean about dead people? I guess they are dead after all.

This rings with so much truth!

I dunno, what thing we can discuss? Usually discussions in thread com out without a question of what topic we should discuss

True enough…

Ok a question since you believe in “God”, do you think all prayers are listened to whatever the person religion is, if a polytheist is praying on his own, do you think “the Catholic God” listen to that person prayers?

Yes, and there is a reason for this belief. Whenever we pray, we are seeking something. Whether it be a greater relationship, intercession for loved ones (or whoever), and such… And no matter how flawed the theology (or a-theology) is, people do still reach out to Big Guns Upstairs in their own ways. Jeremiah 29:12-14 (I think) sums this up better than I ever could.

“Thus says the LORD: When you call me, when you go pray to me, I will listen to you. When you look for me, you will find me. Yes, when you seek me with all your heart, you will find me.”

You don’t have to believe it (like you would anyway ). But that sums it up.

So, to directly answer your question… Yes, I do believe God hears all prayers of all people of all religions.

And if a prayer is a communication with god ( as a father ), why there is rosaries, or prayers that people repeat, isn’t it better to say what is only on your mind and not something that is repeated?

Well, that is a really good question. And I am sure this question will come up: If God knows what is on your mind, why pray at all? Right?

I am certainly not the right person to ask, as that is a theological question and not a philosophical question. (Not that I’d be the right person to ask for the latter, but still…)

Prayer is a conversation. As I said above, whenever one prays they seek something. In the case of Catholics, it is a relatioship. While we do ask for things, we realize the importance of prayer as not just to give petitions.

There are 5 forms of prayer (or 6 depending on the way you look at it).

1. Blessing
2. Adoration
3. Petition
4. Intercession
5. Praise (incidentally, Thanksgiving also )

And there are different ways you can do it:

1. Vocally (probably the most popular).
2. Meditation (not to be confused with Zen meditation and such)
3. Contemplative.

The reasons I said those things are the following:

The rosary is a meditative prayer where we reflect on the life of Jesus Christ, from His Birth to His Ascension to the firstfruits of His saving grace (Mary’s Assumption into Heaven). The importance of this is to engage our desire to strengthen the relationship we have with God. We believe Mary’s example is the sum perfection of this relationship. That’s why we pray the rosary. (There are 20 different scriptural passages that we reflect on. Not all once, but every 4 days is about the time it takes.) And the repetition of prayers is to keep ourselves from distractions and to ask Mary for help (to put in non-religious terms). And we have the beads so we don’t have to count 53 Hail Mary’s!!!

And about repeating non-rosary prayers, as faithful Catholic do… I can’t answer that question satisfactorily. Sorry. My knowledge is very limited, as is apparent in my posts.

I guess those repetitions are more contemplative, in that they seek Him “whom [our] soul loves.”

Perhaps, this quote will tie the knots here:

“Whether or not our prayer is heard depends not on the number of words, but on the fervor of our souls.”

So, that might help. I really don’t know if it will though.

I know it got pretty cheesy, but that is what I believe, considering I got it from the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Did that make any sense? Or is it just another one of my ramblings? Or both?

Again, this is hard to discuss with you! Considering you don’t believe any of what I just said! Its good though. I really have to refine my thinking, so that I am not the only one who understands what I believe.

 

[Flyingg]

Gregg, I once downloaded a rosary application just to see how to pray the rosary, even that I don’t believe it doesn’t mean that I’m not interested in religions and different beliefs or culture. Thanks for explaining the whole issue, do you have to go to church to pray?

 

[Julia_Mae]

Gregg, I once downloaded a rosary application just to see how to pray the rosary, even that I don’t believe it doesn’t mean that I’m not interested in religions and different beliefs or culture. Thanks for explaining the whole issue, do you have to go to church to pray?

Every time you ask a question about God, if you are sincere in wanting the answer, you are praying.

Cro-magnon man asking the lightning to spare his bone and skin tent, was praying.

One God. One mysterious but oh-so real God. By any name at any time. God has a desire for you: to live in perfect joy forever.

I now return you to your regularly scheduled conversation partner.