Which parts of the Gospels specifically have not been corrupted?

[paarsurrey]

So how do Muslims reconcile the reserection and that so many were willing to die for that belief.

Hi

Resurrection of Jesus from the **clinical dead **never happened;no Muslim believed that.Yes, Jesus got cured from the fatal injuries on the Cross; so he revived from near-dead and then he went on self-exile from Judea to India.

People have been tortured for Communism and also died for that.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks

 

[Sister_Amy]

But I don’t remember there ever being any messages about smiting unbelievers and making non-believers pay a subjugation tax etc. Maybe I missed that.

Maybe you missed the day in Sunday School when God told the Children of Israel not to leave even the cattle alive.

 

[wanner47]

Maybe you missed the day in Sunday School when God told the Children of Israel not to leave even the cattle alive.

Where did Jesus say that?

 

[Sister_Amy]

The faith seems quite convenient then. Agree with what we want and throw out the rest, just so long as it agrees with the revealation to one person, who may or may not had his own agenda.

Convenient? Do you consider what earns you persecution to be convenient? It would have been a lot “easier” or more “convenient” for the Muslims to be Christians instead of preaching the adamant tawheed of the Qur’an. In fact, it’s more like Islam throws out all the convenient parts. Like knowing for sure a person will go heaven… I mean, that would be pretty convenient. But in Islam nobody knows.

It also has a convenient way of dismissing Christianity. So how do Muslims reconcile the reserection and that so many were willing to die for that belief. That defies human nature. The apostles were tortured, jailed and killed for this exaggerated love. No one else in human history, not a sinlge prophet or king inspired such a thing, at least not beyond their own life time. The basis of Christianty is that God so loves us, that he died for us. That Christ’s coming was the end of His revelation to mankind.

Peace,
FAB

Sure, I think Islam dismisses Christianity in a way that is very tidy. I don’t know anyone personally who was tortured, jailed, or killed for belief in the resurrection. Nor am I convinced of the authenticity of the stories of the apostles you claim suffered that.

But I know stories about Muslims who were persecuted. A man tied up on the ground in the sun with a boulder on his chest. A woman who died by a spear thrust through her midsection. People tied to hot rocks in the desert, tortured in public.

So… just because people are willing to die for something, does that mean it’s true? And these Muslims–they didn’t even claim Muhammad was God, just that he was a Messenger of God!

 

[Sister_Amy]

Still doesn’t explain away the previous 4000 years of God’s message. By the way, what in God’s message do Muslims see that the Christains and Jews have gotten wrong?

Peace,
FAB

This is a nice simple question I’ve never been able to answer before. Cool!

As regards the Jews, it is their saying that God created the world and then stepped away–denying his power, in a way–and that they refuse to obey Him, and that they have killed His messengers.

As regards the Christians, it is that they went to an extreme in their love of Jesus–loved him so much, in fact, that they raised him to a position which he did not himself claim.

At least that’s the Muslim view.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Where did Jesus say that?

Did Jesus write the book of 1 Samuel?

In chapter 15, you can read:

This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ "

 

[wanner47]

Did Jesus write the book of 1 Samuel?

In chapter 15, you can read:

This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy [a] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’ "

So it is your assertion that the above is what Jesus really meant to say, but the message got garbled somehow?

 

[Sister_Amy]

So it is your assertion that the above is what Jesus really meant to say, but the message got garbled somehow?

No…

The above is what you will read if you open up your Bible to 1 Samuel 15, verses 2-3.

It really doesn’t have anything to do with Jesus, actually. My point was that the message has been the same, always the same, and it’s the same God. But people will say, God in Islam seems so spiteful (a’udhubillah), why the need for fighting?

But it’s not like God didn’t tell the Children of Israel to fight… Same God–same message–that is my assertion.

 

[wanner47]

No…

The above is what you will read if you open up your Bible to 1 Samuel 15, verses 2-3.

It really doesn’t have anything to do with Jesus, actually. My point was that the message has been the same, always the same, and it’s the same God. But people will say, God in Islam seems so spiteful (a’udhubillah), why the need for fighting?

But it’s not like God didn’t tell the Children of Israel to fight… Same God–same message–that is my assertion.

So your assertion is that genocide is acceptable, because God commanded so in the Old Testament?

 

[Sister_Amy]

So your assertion is that genocide is acceptable, because God commanded so in the Old Testament?

Uh… no.

But if God commanded you to kill a certain group of people, would you protest? But God, would you say, they’re really not that bad? And God, killing is so evil. And God, I really don’t want to kill them even though you told me to.

I’m curious?

The Qur’an of course doesn’t call for genocide, I would like to point ou, by the way.

 

[wanner47]

Uh… no.

But if God commanded you to kill a certain group of people, would you protest? But God, would you say, they’re really not that bad? And God, killing is so evil. And God, I really don’t want to kill them even though you told me to.

I’m curious?

So your position is that God *still *commands his followers to commit genocide? Can you cite a recent example?

The Qur’an of course doesn’t call for genocide, I would like to point ou, by the way.

So God originally called for genocide, changed His mind when revealing the Qur’an to Mohammed… yet you say the Gospels that are corrupt because God didn’t command the disciples to commit genocide? How does that work, exactly?

 

[Reuben_J]

To answer the Op’s question, Muslims believe in the gospels if you remove all the passages talking about His death and resurrection, all passages saying no salvation except through Him, all passages saying He is the Son of God, all passages saying He is the Word in flesh, all passages saying the Holy Spirit is not an angel, all passages prophecising about false prophets, passages saying He is the Alpha and Omega, Resurrection and Life, passages saying He is the one who searches the heart and minds, all passages saying Mary was married to Joseph, all passages written by Paul, passages saying all food is clean, passages saying circumcision is not for gentiles, passages saying God preserves his words, passages saying He is the saviour, redeemer, king and judge, and am sure you will find other passages.

In other words, you might end up with a couple of pages that Muslims believe in.

Oh, you can add some more … . Like where Jesus said about divorce, adultery, forgiveness, love thy neighbor, love thy enemy, turning the other cheek, the end time, … .

 

[inJESUS]

So your position is that God *still *

commands his followers to commit genocide? Can you cite a recent example?

From an islamic point of view, wars are prescriptive to all times , all people, all lands. In the OT, wars were prescriptive about limited nations, lands and time and the NT does not teach what Muhammad taught so when Muslims quote the OT to defend what Muhammad and his followers did by giving a total blind eye to Jesus’ words, they are committing a false analogy based on ignorance of scriptures.

 

[inJESUS]

Oh, you can add some more … . Like where Jesus said about divorce, adultery, forgiveness, love thy neighbor, love thy enemy, turning the other cheek, the end time, … .

indeed, which means there might remain one page they believe in. What a scripture genocide did we commit.

 

[Reuben_J]

From an islamic point of view, wars are prescriptive to all times , all people, all lands. In the OT, wars were prescriptive about limited nations, lands and time and the NT does not teach what Muhammad taught so when Muslims quote the OT to defend what Muhammad and his followers did by giving a total blind eye to Jesus’ words, they are committing a false analogy based on ignorance of scriptures.

Actually it is even more than that. They quote the OT because we said Jesus is God and therefore what happened in the OT were incidents commanded by Jesus. This is of course a bizarre rationale because Muslims do not believe that Jesus is God.

 

[Reuben_J]

Thanks inJESUS for the laughter after a stressful discussion.

 

[inJESUS]

As regards the Christians, it is that they went to an extreme in their love of Jesus–loved him so much, in fact, that they raised him to a position which he did not himself claim.

At least that’s the Muslim view.

the Muslim view is at odds with logic, history , geography and common sense. Muslims loved Muhammad so much yet still they did not say what we say about Jesus. Allah loved Muhammad so much that he swears by him, when God says He swears by no one other than Himself. Allah loved Muhammad so much that you must insert his name alongside Allah. Allah loved Muhammad so much that he is considered the best of humankind. Yet Muslims did not change who Muhammad was.

What logic is that that love results in changing who the person is? Do you think that different churches in different lands with people who did not know each others, all of them turned their love into something else? what about the apostles’ teachings in these churches that Jesus is a “mere prophet”? do you think their successors and the rest of eyewitnesses decided otherwise, in all the churches at the same time?

Muslims claim, but claims are refuted by common sense, history, geography and logic. Even the apocrypha that the church rejects condemns Muhammad by reflecting the Christian belief though distorted, instead of Muhammad’s.

 

[inJESUS]

Thanks inJESUS for the laughter after a stressful discussion.

strange as it may seems, the naivety of some theories make me laugh as well. You see, all churches in different lands established by the apostles, none of them respected their faith, and all miraculously turned Jesus into something else, and all committed the same scripture genocide and Muslims accuse *Jews *of believing that God stepped aside when in fact it is Allah who was doing nothing when these so wicked Christians had psychic powers and telepathy into changing scriptures and Jesus in the same way through different lands.

but when it comes to Islam, only Muslims took Allah and Muhammad seriously and preserved their faith.

I mean, some Islamic theories are intellectual suicide, historical genocide, geographical avalanche , common sense slaughter and psychological omnipresence.

 

[inJESUS]

Actually it is even more than that. They quote the OT because we said Jesus is God and therefore what happened in the OT were incidents commanded by Jesus. This is of course a bizarre rationale because Muslims do not believe that Jesus is God.

this is a poor debate technique used in an attempt to turn the table over our heads by quoting what they do not understand, all the while denying what Jesus explained because they don’t like His explanation, in order to defend Muhammad but when what they quote opposes Muhammad from both OT and NT, expect the usual mantra of corruption, the easiest way out of any self-proclaimed prophet being Muhammad or Smith. Chaos.

 

[inJESUS]

correction of what i wrote earlier: From an islamic point of view, wars are prescriptive to all times , all people, all lands. In the OT, wars were *descriptive *about limited nations, lands and time.

There is nothing called “war is prescribed on you”, there is nothing called you are commanded to fight people until they say there is no God but YHWH and Moses is his messenger, there is nothing called go on jihad to different lands to conquer them and humiliate their people unless they either convert or die.