Which parts of the Gospels specifically have not been corrupted?

[Sister_Amy]

Pray tell, when has God lately commanded genocide, and can you prove it?

Lately? Is God subject to time? Or the reverse?

Perhaps you’ve heard of a man called Osama bin Laden?

I think I might have heard the name… what “radical Muslim sect” does he follow?

I understand it’s an uncomfortable topic for you.

Uncomfortable? Nah, merely irrelevant.

Well, I do enjoy religious fiction! Perhaps I shall.

Let me know what you think.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

My point is pretty much that God is the same, in OT and Qur’an, and that there aren’t striking differences in the message, either.

Sister Amy;

There is a BIG and OVERWHELMING difference between Islam’s view of God and Christianity’s.

You view Jesus as a minor prophet paving the way for the message of Islam.

Almost IDENTICAL to mormonism (same salvation history, in fact) but parsecs removed from Christianity.

Have you seen the Cairo manuscript lately? You know, the oldest Koran WITHOUT the diacritical marks for vowels??

Where are those leaves and rocks and so forth? Conveniently gone like the mormons’ “Golden Tablets”?

Quit trolling around with your doublespeak, SIster Amy, George Orwell tipped the game in “1984.”

Robert

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi

Sister Amy is right. The God is the same in OT and Quran; the name Allah and YHWH are almost the same in attributes.

Since Jesus did not dicate NTBible or authorized any of his disciples to write his life accounts in Judea, so to me it is an unauthorized writings and describe more of Paul’s thoughts than Jesus’ and Mary’s.

Paul’s **message **is neither God Allah YHWH’s message nor Jesus’ message, not all in my opinion.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

Now, whatever has happened to the injeel that was given to Jesus?

 

[Reuben_J]

Did Jesus say adultery was allowed or something? How was his teaching different than Muhammad’s? (I’m expecting you to bring up the story in John, go ahead, I’m ready if you need to go that route. But I’m curious if you have anything else…)

About forgiveness–did Jesus teach something that Muhammad didn’t?

About loving one’s neighbor–are you not aware of what Muhammad taught regarding neighbors?

Just to start with…

I hate to disappoint you Amy, but yes, Mohammad does not have the same teaching as Jesus on those counts. You should know. You were a Christian once.

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally Posted by Sister Amy:
Did Jesus say adultery was allowed or something? How was his teaching different than Muhammad’s? (I’m expecting you to bring up the story in John, go ahead, I’m ready if you need to go that route. But I’m curious if you have anything else…)

About forgiveness–did Jesus teach something that Muhammad didn’t?

About loving one’s neighbor–are you not aware of what Muhammad taught regarding neighbors?

Just to start with…

I hate to disappoint you Amy, but yes, Mohammad does not have the same teaching as Jesus on those counts. You should know. You were a Christian once.

Hi Reuben J!

Please don’t shy away; just answer her questions. Kindly quote from Jesus and Quran. I know you don’t have anything dictated by Jesus, in my opinion.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

 

[inJESUS]

that wars were not limited to Muhammad’s time?

The fighting I mentioned above regarding the Amalekites was restricted to that group of people. Why would anyone say otherwise? I certainly didn’t claim that to be the case.

neither do we, and the same applies to any war in the OT.

What applies to the Qur’an does not apply to the OT, not by a long shot.

of course, because the OT laws were descriptive and limited to specific nations in specific lands, and not prescriptive wars for Jews , that is, they were history, not manuals of offensive wars to go conquer, kill and humiliate people to spread Judaism, as in Islam. For this reason, you must not refer to that which does not agree with your ideology, in order to defend yours. There is nothing called : I (Moses) is commanded to terrorize and fight people until all say there is no God but God and Moses is his prophet. There is nothing called go butcher and assasinate thousands in other lands, whether they like it or not, because Judaism is to rule. And when you limit Islam to “defensive wars” , and “no genocides in Islam because Islam is about mercy”, you are not reflecting the Islam of the “guided Caliphs” who cut supplies from people while conquering them and massacred thousands in the name of the war manual Muhammad put to spread his message. Quoting other “nice” things said by Muhammad does not negate what he and his followers did.

 

[Jay53]

But personally I would much prefer a “subjugation” (using your word) tax than complete and utter destruction. Wouldn’t you?

If those are my only 2 choices, of course. I just don’t understand why those are my only 2 choices. Why can’t I and all people just live our lives where we want according to God’s word (the Bible) and have other faiths leave us alone? (Similarly, Muslims should be able to live their lives the way they want. My problem is that Muslims seem to want everyone else to be Muslim too and don’t have a problem using destruction or subjugation tax to accomplish this.) I thought God created us all in His image? Why would He then decide that certain people should be oppressed and humiliated? Sorry, it just doesn’t make sense to me. And, I noticed you didn’t provide the passage that includes this “same message”.

But, back to the topic at hand, I still don’t understand, are there ANY of Jesus’ life/teachings in the Gospels that are not corrupted? I mentioned previously, (or on another thread, I don’t remember ) Jesus’ baptism where God said “This is My Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” Do Muslims think this didn’t happen at all? or the message was corrupted, and if so, how? What really happened? With respect to Muslims, specifically, I don’t understand why God would give Muhammad a different message than Jesus came to give?

Thank you.

 

[Jay53]

I have never heard any authentic teaching in Islam about “apparitions” of anyone anywhere. Have you?

No, that’s why I’m asking. Muslims do not believe in Our Lady of Fatima? If not, why not? Or the apparitions in Zeitun, Egypt that someone else brought up. (Although I don’t know if those are approved and we’re allowed to dicuss them. I apologize if we’re not, please just let me know.) From what I understand of those, the President of Egypt even saw Blessed Mother.

My reasoning in this line of questioning is because Muslims revere Blessed Mother and she is also mentioned in the Quran. And Blessed Mother obviously knows her Son is the Son of God - why don’t Muslims believe Blessed Mother? Do they think she was/is lying or deceiving people?

 

[Reuben_J]

Hi Reuben J!

Please don’t shy away; just answer her questions. Kindly quote from Jesus and Quran. I know you don’t have anything dictated by Jesus, in my opinion.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

It is interesting to know you are interested too, Paasurrey. Good for you. But Amy knows what she talks about and she knows them. She was a former Christian remember? Let her brings it up if she wants to.

 

[FAB]

This is a nice simple question I’ve never been able to answer before. Cool!

As regards the Jews, it is their saying that God created the world and then stepped away–denying his power, in a way–and that they refuse to obey Him, and that they have killed His messengers.

As regards the Christians, it is that they went to an extreme in their love of Jesus–loved him so much, in fact, that they raised him to a position which he did not himself claim.

At least that’s the Muslim view.

Sister Amy:
I’m afraid you have a misunderstanding on both counts.
The Jews never believed that God created the world and then stepped away. In fact they believe that he had and active role in their civilation.

Christ by the way did proclaim himself as the Son of God, this was not a position he was raise to by early Christians, it was what they witnessed and what they passed on.

Peace,
FAB

 

[FAB]

Convenient? Do you consider what earns you persecution to be convenient? It would have been a lot “easier” or more “convenient” for the Muslims to be Christians instead of preaching the adamant tawheed of the Qur’an. In fact, it’s more like Islam throws out all the convenient parts. Like knowing for sure a person will go heaven… I mean, that would be pretty convenient. But in Islam nobody knows.

Sure, I think Islam dismisses Christianity in a way that is very tidy. I don’t know anyone personally who was tortured, jailed, or killed for belief in the resurrection. Nor am I convinced of the authenticity of the stories of the apostles you claim suffered that.

But I know stories about Muslims who were persecuted. A man tied up on the ground in the sun with a boulder on his chest. A woman who died by a spear thrust through her midsection. People tied to hot rocks in the desert, tortured in public.

So… just because people are willing to die for something, does that mean it’s true? And these Muslims–they didn’t even claim Muhammad was God, just that he was a Messenger of God!

The Authenticty of the deaths of the apostles are in fact very well documented, not just by Christans writers but by Roman documention. Also there was over 300 years of persecution of Christians, well documented as well by Roman Documments. To deny these things is to deny history.

Was there torture of Muslims, yes, I will not deny history, but in the same breath the it cannot be denied that those of the Muslim did the same. The question is then, recongizing that these happend on both sides hundreds of years ago, and recongizing that the the Popes of the Catholic Church have issued appolizes for these past wrongs, and even Benedict today is holding conferences with Muslims leaders, why are Christians in Muslim countries today, still persected, still tortured and still killed.

Even if you do not want to accept Christ as the Son of God. Certainly some common ground can be found with his message. The dignaty of the human person, from conception to death, the need to care for those in need, to give equal statues to all both men and women and there is more.

These are not just messages found in the word of Christ, but the message of God from the beginning. It’s not that the message has not always been there, it hasn’t been followed.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Reuben_J]

Oh, you can add some more … . Like where Jesus said about divorce, adultery, forgiveness, love thy neighbor, love thy enemy, turning the other cheek, the end time, … .

I am refreshing this post, my excahange with inJESUS, but because paarsurrey seems to be interested.

In reference to the OP, I said the mentioned teachings should be considered corrupt by Muslims as Mohammad did not teach them the way Jesus did in the Bible or rather Mohammad did not have any equivalent teachings.

The gauntlet has been thrown.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Sister Amy:
I’m afraid you have a misunderstanding on both counts.
The Jews never believed that God created the world and then stepped away. In fact they believe that he had and active role in their civilation.

Christ by the way did proclaim himself as the Son of God, this was not a position he was raise to by early Christians, it was what they witnessed and what they passed on.

Peace,
FAB

No reply from “Sister Amy”???

What a shock!! Stop the presses!!

Robert

 

[Sister_Amy]

No reply from “Sister Amy”???

What a shock!! Stop the presses!!

Robert

Sorry–sometimes I stop reading threads due to frustration–just peeped in to see this note from you… now I’ll go looking for what I’m supposed to reply to!

Thanks, Robert.

Peace,
Amy

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Sorry–sometimes I stop reading threads due to frustration–just peeped in to see this note from you… now I’ll go looking for what I’m supposed to reply to!

Thanks, Robert.

Peace,
Amy

Welcome back, Amy, now please address FAB’s post.

Having a Jewish father-in-law (born in Palestine), I am most curious to read your answer about where your information came from concerning what Jews believe.

I am waiting.

Robert

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy;

There is a BIG and OVERWHELMING difference between Islam’s view of God and Christianity’s.

I consider the difference neither BIG nor OVERWHELMING… sorry, suppose we just disagree.

You view Jesus as a minor prophet paving the way for the message of Islam.

A minor prophet? Heavens, no! A messenger of God, given scripture. I’m not aware of a concept of “minor” vs. “major” prophets in Islam, to start with. And if there were, Jesus would definitely be considered major. He is one of the few to be considered a messenger with a very special task–with the likes of Moses, and Noah, and Muhammad. There is nothing minor about Jesus in Islam.

Almost IDENTICAL to mormonism (same salvation history, in fact) but parsecs removed from Christianity.

Mormonism is pretty much irrelevant to Islam, historically.

Have you seen the Cairo manuscript lately? You know, the oldest Koran WITHOUT the diacritical marks for vowels??

The Cairo manuscript, eh? Can’t say I’ve made it out that way recently. But here is an excellent resource for you on Qur’anic manuscripts, if that’s what you’re interested in. There are Qur’ans without even dots on the letters, much less “diacritical marks”… pretty cool, huh?

Where are those leaves and rocks and so forth? Conveniently gone like the mormons’ “Golden Tablets”?

What leaves and rocks? I don’t even know what you’re talking about. Yet should I remind you again that Mormonism is irrelevant?

Quit trolling around with your doublespeak, SIster Amy, George Orwell tipped the game in “1984.”

Trolling? Aw, now that’s not nice. You’ve hurt my feelings.

People ask questions and I try to answer, to the best of my ability. I make mistakes and sometimes I don’t know the answer… is that a reason to make fun of me?

 

[Sister_Amy]

I hate to disappoint you Amy, but yes, Mohammad does not have the same teaching as Jesus on those counts. You should know. You were a Christian once.

Exactly. And I’m a Muslim now. That’s why I know the teachings are the same.

 

[Sister_Amy]

If those are my only 2 choices, of course. I just don’t understand why those are my only 2 choices. Why can’t I and all people just live our lives where we want according to God’s word (the Bible) and have other faiths leave us alone? (Similarly, Muslims should be able to live their lives the way they want. My problem is that Muslims seem to want everyone else to be Muslim too and don’t have a problem using destruction or subjugation tax to accomplish this.) I thought God created us all in His image? Why would He then decide that certain people should be oppressed and humiliated? Sorry, it just doesn’t make sense to me. And, I noticed you didn’t provide the passage that includes this “same message”.

But, back to the topic at hand, I still don’t understand, are there ANY of Jesus’ life/teachings in the Gospels that are not corrupted? I mentioned previously, (or on another thread, I don’t remember ) Jesus’ baptism where God said “This is My Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” Do Muslims think this didn’t happen at all? or the message was corrupted, and if so, how? What really happened? With respect to Muslims, specifically, I don’t understand why God would give Muhammad a different message than Jesus came to give?

Thank you.

I certainly do think that Jesus and Muhammad taught the same message. I usually like to point to some parables of Jesus, and in particular the Sermon on the Mount (one of my favorite Bible passages!) to demonstrate the similarities. I guess I been kind of shifty–I realize now people actually want me to explain the similarities between the teachings of Jesus and Muhammad. I’ll try to get on that asap!

The way Muslims determine what has not been corrupted of Jesus’s teachings is basically that whatever agrees with the Qur’an/Sunnah is accepted, and whatever disagrees with that is rejected. Not necessarily has corrupted, possibly as abrogated.

Now, that probably sounds like a “cop out” or “handwaving” to you, but if you can try to put yourself in the shoes of a Muslim, who believes that God revealed the Qur’an and preserved it, then it makes a lot of sense.

Now, about the voice from the sky at the baptism and all… nope, nothing about that in Islam so…

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Amy:

Get real.

Jesus is God as man. Islam does NOT believe this. Neither does Judaism.

He is a ‘minor’ prophet in your world view because Mohammed is considered to be Allah’s great prophet.

The Koran was alleged to have been written on any available surface. Leafs and rocks and palm fronds. This is YOUR belief, not mine.

It is mormon like in this respect: illiterate ‘prophet’ claims special revelation from an ‘angel’ and takes dictation/translates a ‘new’ testament. Sect is based upon a Catholic lectionary in Islam’s case and upon the KJV and a novel in the mormon’s instance.

Both are male-dominated (mulitple wives, remember?) and in your case, women are without SOULS.

(love those houris: great marketing idea to the poor tribesman who cannot afford more than one wife!)

The CAIRO manuscript is the OLDEST manuscript of the Koran (remember: Arabic was only spoken at the time of your prophet) without the marks indicating vowels.

Semitic languages need vowel marks, Amy, to make sense.
Or, for example, a ‘bk’ could mean ‘bake,’ ‘book,’ or ‘bunk.’

You still don’t address the questions and regardless of your smaryness, are very disingenuous and deceiving.

Robert

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sister Amy:
I’m afraid you have a misunderstanding on both counts.
The Jews never believed that God created the world and then stepped away. In fact they believe that he had and active role in their civilation.

Christ by the way did proclaim himself as the Son of God, this was not a position he was raise to by early Christians, it was what they witnessed and what they passed on.

Peace,
FAB

So perhaps I have a misunderstanding.

I’m certainly not in a position to argue what Jews believe–I could be wrong. I might have been told that before, or it might be a general impression of my own. I certainly don’t have any facts to verify my position so if you prefer, I will abandon in.

On to the second count, according to my beliefs, Jesus Christ never uttered such a thing, at least not in the literal way that people understand it today. I accept that “son of God” is a title used for righteous men (even before the time of Jesus) so the phrase itself doesn’t bother me. The literal interpretation of it, however, violated just about everything I believe in, and I simply can’t believe Jesus ever said it, to mean that.

5:114 And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.”

And of course since I believe that the Qur’an is verbatim the word of God revealed and preserved, and it declares that Jesus never said what you claim…