Which parts of the Gospels specifically have not been corrupted?

[Jay53]

Hi

I don’t think there are any approved authentic apparition of Jesus or Mary seen by any Catholic. If you mean from “approved” vatican approval; that does not add any credence to the issue.

Sorry, I thought the apparitions of Blessed Mother at Fatima had been acknowledged as real by other religions as well as Catholicism. Do Muslims not believe that Blessed Mother appeared in Fatima or they don’t believe the messages given? I apologize for my ignorance on this subject.

 

[Booklover]

Hi

I don’t think there are any approved authentic apparition of Jesus or Mary seen by any Catholic. If you mean from “approved” vatican approval; that does not add any credence to the issue.

I don’t think, the vatican clergy have themselves seen any apparitions. Those who see don’t mention a clear picture of Jesus or Mary; they see something foggy, they cannot describe clear physical features of Jesus or Mary. They don’t agree on the features.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

Paar, you’ve got that wrong! Here’s a to apparitions approved by the Church

Vickie.

 

[FAB]

No part of the Gospels are “corrupted”
They are the inspired word of God, written by diciples of the Apostles, Mark being the first written around 60 AD.
These threads seem to always be strarted by those who want to discredit the sciptures.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Jay53]

No part of the Gospels are “corrupted”
They are the inspired word of God, written by diciples of the Apostles, Mark being the first written around 60 AD.
These threads seem to always be strarted by those who want to discredit the sciptures.

Peace,
FAB

Actually, I started this thread and I have absolutely NO desire to discredit the scriptures. Jesus Christ is my life and my salvation - without Him I would be nothing!! I’m trying to find out why some people SAY the Bible is corrupted to understand where they’ve gone wrong in their thinking. But thanks for the affirmation of what I believe!

 

[Sister_Amy]

I made a post on the last page that seems to be largely ignored–perhaps in its simplicity it did not seem necessarily relevant to the discussion at hand.

We must be very clear in our language, so please let us not use the word “Gospel” (as in the message of Jesus) and the word “Gospels” (as in the 4 books in the NT describing the life of Jesus) haphazardly to confuse the two.

The Bible itself has, if we may say, two volumes. Volume I–the Old Testament, and Volume II–the New Testament. We shall ignore the Old Testament (OT) henceforth and concentrate now on the New Testament (NT).

The New Testament itself consists of several “books” by various authors, some known and some unknown. The “Gospels” is a collection of the first four books of the NT, said to be the Gospel according to Matthew, the Gospel according to Mark, the Gospel according to Luke, and the Gospel according to John. These are texts in the NT, in the Bible. There are also other writings in the NT, we’ll concentrate on just these 4 for now, though.

The word “Gospel,” on the other hand, is used in these 4 books and in other books in the NT, to describe the message Jesus was preaching. (A search in the NIV on the word “gospel.”)

Now, Muslims believe in something very specific as being revealed by God to Jesus. Not to Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, or to Paul or James or anyone else. What Muslims believe in was revealed only to Jesus.

What Christians have in the NT are accounts **about Jesus–in the four "Gospels."

Now, if someone wants to debate corruption of those texts, that’s his own business, and not something that Muslims need concern themselves with at all. Muslims don’t even need to make the claim that there is any “corruption” in those texts–whether there is or not isn’t the most pressing concern.

Because what Muslims believe in as revelation from God is obviously not what Christians have in the NT. Because what Muslims believe in was revealed to Jesus. And only to Jesus. It was not revealed again to the authors of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, or any other text in the NT. So even though Christians may assert that the “Holy Spirit” inspired those authors with the story, that is not equivalent to what Muslims believe was revealed to Jesus.

 

[Jay53]

I made a post on the last page that seems to be largely ignored–perhaps in its simplicity it did not seem necessarily relevant to the discussion at hand.

We must be very clear in our language, so please let us not use the word “Gospel” (as in the message of Jesus) and the word “Gospels” (as in the 4 books in the NT describing the life of Jesus) haphazardly to confuse the two.

The Bible itself has, if we may say, two volumes. Volume I–the Old Testament, and Volume II–the New Testament. We shall ignore the Old Testament (OT) henceforth and concentrate now on the New Testament (NT).

The New Testament itself consists of several “books” by various authors, some known and some unknown. The “Gospels” is a collection of the first four books of the NT, said to be the Gospel according to Matthew, the Gospel according to Mark, the Gospel according to Luke, and the Gospel according to John. These are texts in the NT, in the Bible. There are also other writings in the NT, we’ll concentrate on just these 4 for now, though.

The word “Gospel,” on the other hand, is used in these 4 books and in other books in the NT, to describe the message Jesus was preaching. (A search in the NIV on the word “gospel.”)

Now, Muslims believe in something very specific as being revealed by God to Jesus. Not to Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, or to Paul or James or anyone else. What Muslims believe in was revealed only to Jesus.

What Christians have in the NT are accounts **about Jesus–in the four "Gospels."

Now, if someone wants to debate corruption of those texts, that’s his own business, and not something that Muslims need concern themselves with at all. Muslims don’t even need to make the claim that there is any “corruption” in those texts–whether there is or not isn’t the most pressing concern.

Because what Muslims believe in as revelation from God is obviously not what Christians have in the NT. Because what Muslims believe in was revealed to Jesus. And only to Jesus. It was not revealed again to the authors of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, or any other text in the NT. So even though Christians may assert that the “Holy Spirit” inspired those authors with the story, that is not equivalent to what Muslims believe was revealed to Jesus.

Sorry, but you totally confused me. What do Muslims believe was revealed to Jesus that is not included in the Gospels?

 

[Sister_Amy]

Sorry, but you totally confused me. What do Muslims believe was revealed to Jesus that is not included in the Gospels?

Let me try to give you an example…

Suppose someone teaches you a Shakespearean play, that you memorize completely.

And then you go on to teach people that play, but they’re not quite as dedicated students as you were, they don’t want to memorize the whole thing or they don’t have time. So you just keep teaching it, what parts of it you can, and they understand some parts and forget some parts.

And then your students who pretty much learn the gist of the play and even memorize some key parts of it, they go on to write about it. But they don’t have the whole thing memorized, and they don’t know everything about it that you knew. And they don’t even get together to write it, they just write what they remember.

Will they have everything that your teacher taught you? And will the papers or books they write be the same as the complete play?

 

[Jay53]

Let me try to give you an example…

Suppose someone teaches you a Shakespearean play, that you memorize completely.

And then you go on to teach people that play, but they’re not quite as dedicated students as you were, they don’t want to memorize the whole thing or they don’t have time. So you just keep teaching it, what parts of it you can, and they understand some parts and forget some parts.

And then your students who pretty much learn the gist of the play and even memorize some key parts of it, they go on to write about it. But they don’t have the whole thing memorized, and they don’t know everything about it that you knew. And they don’t even get together to write it, they just write what they remember.

Will they have everything that your teacher taught you? And will the papers or books they write be the same as the complete play?

OK, I understand your example, but I have a couple issues with it: In your example, God would be teaching Jesus the “play” that he then memorizes and teaches to the apostles. However, Jesus IS God so that doesn’t hold water. The apostles were getting the “play” directly from God. I can see where the apostles could have “forgotten” something as they were writing, but you didn’t answer what they forgot. Second, in extending your example, God taught the “play” to the Angel Gabriel (as an aside, I don’t believe that either ) which he then instructed Muhammad to write and teach. Whose to say that Muhammad didn’t “forget” something or screw up the message? Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[FAB]

Because what Muslims believe in as revelation from God is obviously not what Christians have in the NT. Because what Muslims believe in was revealed to Jesus. And only to Jesus. It was not revealed again to the authors of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, or any other text in the NT. So even though Christians may assert that the “Holy Spirit” inspired those authors with the story, that is not equivalent to what Muslims believe was revealed to Jesus.

What I understand is that Muslims believe Jesus was a prophet, not the Son of God, both human and divine as do Christians. When we speak of the writers of Gospel, their works are not revealed in the sense you are speaking. They are instead accounts of Jesus’s message and life reavealed by the human person of Christ to the world. The writters at some point, when Jesus did not return as many had thought, in their time, were guided or inspired by the Holy Spirt to record the events of his life. We as a result get several perspectives of the events of Jesus’s ministery as oppossed to a single author whose word cannot be verified.
We don’t look at the differences in the Gospels as somehow proving that they are not the Truth, but the similarites and realize that no two human authors much less the four that are in the Cannon would write exactly the same thing. You should also know that each of the authors were addressing a specific Christian community, to meet the concerns, needs and understanding of that community so that they would understand the truth of Christ’s message and life.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Sister_Amy]

OK, I understand your example, but I have a couple issues with it: In your example, God would be teaching Jesus the “play” that he then memorizes and teaches to the apostles. However, Jesus IS God so that doesn’t hold water.

But Muslims don’t believe that, do they? Because the Qur’an says otherwise.

The apostles were getting the “play” directly from God. I can see where the apostles could have “forgotten” something as they were writing, but you didn’t answer what they forgot.

Do you think they wrote down everything that happened in Jesus’s life? Everything he said, did, everything he taught? If not, then there’s the possibility something was left out. More to the point, they are only writing what they heard Jesus say. That leaves much open to doubt and speculation.

Second, in extending your example, God taught the “play” to the Angel Gabriel (as an aside, I don’t believe that either ) which he then instructed Muhammad to write and teach. Whose to say that Muhammad didn’t “forget” something or screw up the message? Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

God, of course.

The Muslim position is that God revealed a book which is itself a message to mankind (like Jesus was given a message) and it is also the miracle (Jesus was given other miracles, like healing the sick and so on). So Muslims have in the Qur’an a message and a miracle which to them proves its own validity.

And if God really did reveal a book, which He promised to preserve, then if you disagree with the book you’re essentially refuting God’s own words.

That’s the Muslim position.

 

[Jay53]

But Muslims don’t believe that, do they? Because the Qur’an says otherwise.

Do you think they wrote down everything that happened in Jesus’s life? Everything he said, did, everything he taught? If not, then there’s the possibility something was left out. More to the point, they are only writing what they heard Jesus say. That leaves much open to doubt and speculation.

God, of course.

The Muslim position is that God revealed a book which is itself a message to mankind (like Jesus was given a message) and it is also the miracle (Jesus was given other miracles, like healing the sick and so on). So Muslims have in the Qur’an a message and a miracle which to them proves its own validity.

And if God really did reveal a book, which He promised to preserve, then if you disagree with the book you’re essentially refuting God’s own words.

That’s the Muslim position.

OK. I guess I just have to agree to disagree, because IMO it’s all just circular logic. I just flat out don’t believe that God had anything to do with the Quran. I just don’t understand what was left out of the Bible that the apostles “forgot” that would cause Muhammad to have such a different viewpoint as to disregard His teachings. I’m sure the argument will then be that God gave Muhammad the Quran and that’s why some of his verses are different and he then rejected Jesus as the Son of God, (BTW DID Muhammad even accept Jesus’ messages before his visit from the “Angel Gabriel”, maybe that wasn’t even an issue???) but I don’t understand why God would give Jesus one message and reveal Him as His Beloved Son and then turn around and take it back and give Muhammad something different. I honestly just don’t get it. I don’t understand what motivation the apostles would have had for making up stories, i.e. about Jesus’ baptism where God said “This is My Beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.” (Luke:21) What was their payoff to do that? I suppose that just leaves us at an impasse But, that still leaves the question, what message do Muslims believe was revealed to Jesus that is left out of the Gospels? Thank you.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I’m not trying to be offensive here, and I’m trying to make this as plain as simple as I can. Forgive me if I can’t do a better job of explaining things.

The position of Islam, if you can try to understand, is not that Islam is a “follow-up” of Christianity or Judaism. Rather, the position of Islam is that Islam is a complete and comprehensive way of life, based on the revelation God sent down to Muhammad.

Now, Islam isn’t considered to be the first revelation to mankind, but Muslims believe God sent messengers to other peoples before, and other scriptures before. Note that Muslims don’t believe those scriptures were or have been preserved, merely that God sent them.

So all that a person needs is Islam. It is complete. And if anything in for example, Christianity, agrees with Islam, then it is considered to be based on previous revelation. If anything in Christianity (for example) disagrees with the Qur’an, then it is considered to be either abrogated, or false.

What Muslims believe happened in Christianity is that God sent Jesus and the people followed him. And that then the people exaggerated in their love for Jesus to the extent that they deified him.

 

[FAB]

The Muslim position is that God revealed a book which is itself a message to mankind (like Jesus was given a message) and it is also the miracle (Jesus was given other miracles, like healing the sick and so on). So Muslims have in the Qur’an a message and a miracle which to them proves its own validity.

And if God really did reveal a book, which He promised to preserve, then if you disagree with the book you’re essentially refuting God’s own words.

That’s the Muslim position.

Let’s say I would accept this premise, that not accepting the Qur’an is not accepting God’s word. How then do I reconcile the redically different message that it contains from 4000+ years of previously revealed messages. Did God, some 400 or so years after Christ, decide he was wrong and decided to send a differnt message?

Peace
FAB

 

[Techno2000]

Hi

I don’t think there are any approved authentic apparition of Jesus or Mary seen by any Catholic. If you mean from “approved” vatican approval; that does not add any credence to the issue.

I don’t think, the vatican clergy have themselves seen any apparitions. Those who see don’t mention a clear picture of Jesus or Mary; they see something foggy, they cannot describe clear physical features of Jesus or Mary. They don’t agree on the features.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

our.homewithgod.com/divinemercy/

catholicforum.com/churches/cathteach/divinemercy1.htm
This is very much approved by the vatican, with very clear physical features of Jesus.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Let’s say I would accept this premise, that not accepting the Qur’an is not accepting God’s word. How then do I reconcile the redically different message that it contains from 4000+ years of previously revealed messages. Did God, some 400 or so years after Christ, decide he was wrong and decided to send a differnt message?

Peace
FAB

Decide He was wrong? A’udhibillah.

The answer is quite simple, and in fact it is the premise of the original question. God did not “decide He was wrong” but in fact the message which God sent to Christ was lost.

So God sent the same message again.

Anyone who studies Islam and Christianity and Judaism closely will see the striking parallels–the echo of the same message repeated over time.

 

[Jay53]

You are not being offensive at all! I appreciate you trying to explain this to me. I genuinely don’t get it. Perhaps because I am Catholic, have always been and always will be. Therefore I have difficulty in understanding how others don’t believe the same.??? (Incidentally, before reading these forums I had absolutely no idea that there was such animosity towards Catholics (not from you, but just in general). I had no idea even that Protestants had such a low opinion of Catholicism. I’ve always just told people I’m Catholic if such a topic ever came up or told people we were going to Mass etc. and maybe with such pride/enthusiasm that no one had the heart to say anything mean. )

What Muslims believe happened in Christianity is that God sent Jesus and the people followed him. And that then the people exaggerated in their love for Jesus to the extent that they deified him.

Anyhow, then what is the significance of Muslims believing in Blessed Mother, believing in Jesus’ Virgin birth (which incidentally Muhammad does not have)? Blessed Mother obviously knows her Son is the Son of God. Do Muslims think she was and is lying about this? What is the Muslim opinion of her apparitions at Fatima? (Sorry, do I have to start another thread to ask this? )

 

[FAB]

I’m not trying to be offensive here, and I’m trying to make this as plain as simple as I can. Forgive me if I can’t do a better job of explaining things.

The position of Islam, if you can try to understand, is not that Islam is a “follow-up” of Christianity or Judaism. Rather, the position of Islam is that Islam is a complete and comprehensive way of life, based on the revelation God sent down to Muhammad.

Now, Islam isn’t considered to be the first revelation to mankind, but Muslims believe God sent messengers to other peoples before, and other scriptures before. Note that Muslims don’t believe those scriptures were or have been preserved, merely that God sent them.

So all that a person needs is Islam. It is complete. And if anything in for example, Christianity, agrees with Islam, then it is considered to be based on previous revelation. If anything in Christianity (for example) disagrees with the Qur’an, then it is considered to be either abrogated, or false.

What Muslims believe happened in Christianity is that God sent Jesus and the people followed him. And that then the people exaggerated in their love for Jesus to the extent that they deified him.

The faith seems quite convenient then. Agree with what we want and throw out the rest, just so long as it agrees with the revealation to one person, who may or may not had his own agenda.
It also has a convenient way of dismissing Christianity. So how do Muslims reconcile the reserection and that so many were willing to die for that belief. That defies human nature. The apostles were tortured, jailed and killed for this exaggerated love. No one else in human history, not a sinlge prophet or king inspired such a thing, at least not beyond their own life time. The basis of Christianty is that God so loves us, that he died for us. That Christ’s coming was the end of His revelation to mankind.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Jay53]

So God sent the same message again.

But I don’t remember there ever being any messages about smiting unbelievers and making non-believers pay a subjugation tax etc. Maybe I missed that.

 

[FAB]

Decide He was wrong? A’udhibillah.

The answer is quite simple, and in fact it is the premise of the original question. God did not “decide He was wrong” but in fact the message which God sent to Christ was lost.

So God sent the same message again.

Anyone who studies Islam and Christianity and Judaism closely will see the striking parallels–the echo of the same message repeated over time.

Still doesn’t explain away the previous 4000 years of God’s message. By the way, what in God’s message do Muslims see that the Christains and Jews have gotten wrong?

Peace,
FAB

 

[inJESUS]

To answer the Op’s question, Muslims believe in the gospels if you remove all the passages talking about His death and resurrection, all passages saying no salvation except through Him, all passages saying He is the Son of God, all passages saying He is the Word in flesh, all passages saying the Holy Spirit is not an angel, all passages prophecising about false prophets, passages saying He is the Alpha and Omega, Resurrection and Life, passages saying He is the one who searches the heart and minds, all passages saying Mary was married to Joseph, all passages written by Paul, passages saying all food is clean, passages saying circumcision is not for gentiles, passages saying God preserves his words, passages saying He is the saviour, redeemer, king and judge, and am sure you will find other passages.

In other words, you might end up with a couple of pages that Muslims believe in.

And yes, all Christians deciced to corrupt Jesus’ teachings in the Bible and tradition because bad bad were the Christians, not one of them cared about Jesus, but when it comes to Muhammad, Muslims were the only people to care about Allah and his prophet and Allah suddenly took control after a very long negligence. This is the Islamic Allah and his wisdom, preached by Muslims, which is very similar to Smith’s wisdom, after all, both were visited by “angels”, even though their angels did not agree and actually opposed each others, but who cares, both their books are “miraculous”.