Which parts of the Gospels specifically have not been corrupted?

[Sister_Amy]

Welcome back, Amy, now please address FAB’s post.

Having a Jewish father-in-law (born in Palestine), I am most curious to read your answer about where your information came from concerning what Jews believe.

I am waiting.

Robert

Perhaps you know more about Judaism than I do, having a Jewish father-in-law, like you say. I’m certainly not an expert on what Jews believe. And it appears that I might be wrong.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Amy:

Hello Robert.

Get real.

Yes sir.

Jesus is God as man. Islam does NOT believe this. Neither does Judaism.

I think it would be more appropriate to say Jesus is not God, not divine at all. And then to say that Christianity (or specifically, Christians) do NOT believe this.

The beliefs of Judaism and Islam seem more consistent, to me anyway.

He is a ‘minor’ prophet in your world view because Mohammed is considered to be Allah’s great prophet.

Really? Do you have a reference for that statement? Something from the Qur’an or teachings of Muhammad? Maybe I just didn’t know that and you could point it out to me. Thanks in advance.

The Koran was alleged to have been written on any available surface. Leafs and rocks and palm fronds. This is YOUR belief, not mine.

It was also written on paper. But I didn’t bring this up… and I’m curious why you did?

It is mormon like in this respect: illiterate ‘prophet’ claims special revelation from an ‘angel’ and takes dictation/translates a ‘new’ testament. Sect is based upon a Catholic lectionary in Islam’s case and upon the KJV and a novel in the mormon’s instance.

Do you not believe that the Angel Gabriel appears to men as a messenger?

Both are male-dominated (mulitple wives, remember?) and in your case, women are without SOULS.

LOL. Good one. Reference pleace? Women without souls in islam… that’s new… lol…

(love those houris: great marketing idea to the poor tribesman who cannot afford more than one wife!)

I didn’t realize that all men ever wanted is just to marry lots of women.

The CAIRO manuscript is the OLDEST manuscript of the Koran (remember: Arabic was only spoken at the time of your prophet) without the marks indicating vowels.

Arabic was written at the time of Muhammad–he had scribes, for instance. Within two years after his death the entire Qur’an was collected into a single volume–on pages. It was subsequently copied multiple times, eventually destroyed.

Semitic languages need vowel marks, Amy, to make sense. Or, for example, a ‘bk’ could mean ‘bake,’ ‘book,’ or ‘bunk.’

If you pick up an Arabic newspaper, you won’t see any diacritical marks, Robert. The vowels aren’t to make the language make sense, they’re only for foreigners who rely on them as a crutch.

You still don’t address the questions and regardless of your smaryness, are very disingenuous and deceiving.

Sorry, Robert. I’m trying my best.

 

[FAB]

So perhaps I have a misunderstanding.

I’m certainly not in a position to argue what Jews believe–I could be wrong. I might have been told that before, or it might be a general impression of my own. I certainly don’t have any facts to verify my position so if you prefer, I will abandon in.

On to the second count, according to my beliefs, Jesus Christ never uttered such a thing, at least not in the literal way that people understand it today. I accept that “son of God” is a title used for righteous men (even before the time of Jesus) so the phrase itself doesn’t bother me. The literal interpretation of it, however, violated just about everything I believe in, and I simply can’t believe Jesus ever said it, to mean that.

5:114 And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’?” He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, Thou I know not what is in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.”

And of course since I believe that the Qur’an is verbatim the word of God revealed and preserved, and it declares that Jesus never said what you claim…

Thus the differnce in our beliefs which cannot be bridged. Since I do not belief that Mohammed was a prophet or that God spoke to him verbatim, you can quote the Qur’an all day long and it is meaningless. Were it matters is how the follows of the religion are using it.
There are some basic things that cannot be reconciled without some real mind bending.
Many of the quotes I have read from the Qur’an are so contrary to both Old and New Testament writings, I prefer to put my trust in the writtings of hundreds who have been inspired by God, rather than just one.
Also your faith requires a ridgid submission to a strict set of laws to be saved. This is not the God I have come to know.

Peace,
FAB

 

[Sister_Amy]

Teachings of Jesus and Teachings of Muhammad–the Parallels!

I should write an article about this… one day inshaaAllaah.

Jesus: 27 You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:23-24

Muhammad: The zina [adultery/fornication] of the eye is looking and the zina of the tongue is speaking. The heart wishes and longs and the private part confirms that or denies it. (Bukhari/Muslim)

Jesus: "You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’[g] But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:38-39

Qur’an: And We ordained therein for them: “Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal.” But if anyone remits the retaliation by way of charity, it shall be for him an expiation. Qur’an 5:45

Jesus: Be careful not to do your ‘acts of righteousness’ before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.
2"So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. Matthew 6:1-4

Muhamamd: “Allah will cover seven people with His shade, on the Day when there will be no shade but His: a just ruler, a youth who has been brought up in the worship of Allah, a man whose heart is attached to the mosques, two persons who love each other only for Allah’s sake and they meet and part in Allah’s cause only, a man who refuses the call of a beautiful and rich woman for illicit relation with her and says: I am afraid of Allah, a man who gives charitable gifts so secretly that his left hand does not know what his right hand has given, and a person who remembers Allah while he is alone and his eyes are flooded with tears.” (Bukhari)

Jesus: And when you pray, do not be like the hypocrites, for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the street corners to be seen by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. **But when you pray, go into your room, close the door **and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. Matthew 6:5-6

Muhammad: O people! perform your (voluntary) Salat (prayers) in your homes because the best Salat of a man is the one he performs at home, except the obligatory Salat.’’ (Bukhari/Muslim)

That’s just getting started.

 

[Sister_Amy]

Thus the differnce in our beliefs which cannot be bridged. Since I do not belief that Mohammed was a prophet or that God spoke to him verbatim, you can quote the Qur’an all day long and it is meaningless. Were it matters is how the follows of the religion are using it.
There are some basic things that cannot be reconciled without some real mind bending.
Many of the quotes I have read from the Qur’an are so contrary to both Old and New Testament writings, I prefer to put my trust in the writtings of hundreds who have been inspired by God, rather than just one.
Also your faith requires a ridgid submission to a strict set of laws to be saved. This is not the God I have come to know.

Peace,
FAB

With all respect, I think I am in a position to say that you don’t fully understand my faith.

The words of the Qur’an are not meaningless to the discussion–in fact they are the hinge of it. If you want to prove me wrong, then you need to deal with this matter of the revelation of the Qur’an. Your position only makes sense if the Qur’an was not revealed, my position only makes sense if it was. That is the real crux, isn’t it?

Secondly, my faith does not require “submission to a strict set of laws to be saved.”

Salvation in Islam, as I recently explained in PM to one poster, is a matter explained in the Qur’an. You can examine the following passages, if you like, for the gist of it. Chapter 103, Verse 177 in chapter 2, Chapter 31 verses 12-19, and Chapter 41 verses 30-36.

You’ll see the first part is belief, in all cases. Laws don’t matter a thing without belief.

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

Hello Robert.

Sorry, Robert. I’m trying my best.

I know Amy, but you need to try a little bit harder.

The Aliwite minority of Shi’a islam believes women to have NO souls. They are moslem/islamic, are they not???

Caliph Uthman collated the Koran MANY years AFTER Mohammed’s death. During the 20+ years Mohammed was writing the Koran, there was NO written ARABIC.

If you can find a paleographic scholar or semantic-language expert who is NOT Islamic to verify this, I would really appreciate it. Because in all my years of exploration and study in Syrio-Aramaic culture and language, I haven’t found any.

As to Islam:

When people complained to ol’ Mohammed that his later (Medina) ‘revelations’ contradicted his earlier, Mecca, ones he replied with 2:106-

“Whatever a verse do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?”

Pretty convenient way to silence textual and logical critics, is it not? Point to Allah.

Oops! Let me rephrase that sayeth the [fill in blank of your deity]

What about that “Verse of the Sword” in 9:5 that directs the Faithful (you among them, I am sure) to “kill the unbelievers [Mushrikun] wherever you find them” after the “sacred months.”??

THAT needs to abrogated. Except it is a LATER writing than the earlier ‘peaceful’ ones, isn’t it, Amy??

Again: similarities in a badly translated Lectionary, called the Koran, only point out what the source document was for Islam.

It sure wasn’t an angel dictating to an illiterate merchant who copied on rocks and leaves and palm fronds.

Parsecs, friend, parsecs.

The ONLY thing in common is monotheism. Everything else is Peninsular Arab tribe nationalism. Just like the white American nationalism of Mormonism.

I think you and Zerinus should PM on this one.

Robert

 

[Sister_Amy]

I know Amy, but you need to try a little bit harder.

I’ll do my best, Robert.

The Aliwite minority of Shi’a islam believes women to have NO souls. They are moslem/islamic, are they not???

Heh. Is that right? I’ve never heard of the Aliwites. Fascinating. You decided to select a minority of a minority, and a belief exclusive to them (apparently) and claim it to all of Islam? And do you expect me to take you seriously and rebut this bogus claim that women have no souls? Even cursory reading of the Qur’an refutes sucha notion. And whether the group is Muslim or not is certainly not for me to say.

Caliph Uthman collated the Koran MANY years AFTER Mohammed’s death. During the 20+ years Mohammed was writing the Koran, there was NO written ARABIC.

Robert, if I might make a suggestion, there are some good books available on the sciences of the Qur’an, which you can investigate. First of all, there was written Arabic–Muhammad had scribes, who wrote letters for him to various Kings. He even had Arabic writing on his ring. So there was written Arabic, absolutely.

Secondly, which perhaps should have been first, the Qur’an was collected into a single volume during the rule of the Caliph called Abu Bakr–not Uthman. He ruled for the 2 years immediately after the death of Muhammad. During the life of Muhammad, there are many reports of His companions writing down the revelation. In Arabic, of course. In the two years after his death, the single volume was collected, using the writings which had been made prior, and also employing the memories of the many Companions who had memorized the Qur’an.

If you can find a paleographic scholar or semantic-language expert who is NOT Islamic to verify this, I would really appreciate it. Because in all my years of exploration and study in Syrio-Aramaic culture and language, I haven’t found any.

Not Islamic? Why should a person’s religion have anything to do with paleography? Anyway, here’s what seems to me to be a good resource to support my claims: islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/kufic.html

As to Islam:

When people complained to ol’ Mohammed that his later (Medina) ‘revelations’ contradicted his earlier, Mecca, ones he replied with 2:106-

“Whatever a verse do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring one or similar to it. Know you not that Allah is able to do all things?”

Pretty convenient way to silence textual and logical critics, is it not? Point to Allah.

Oops! Let me rephrase that sayeth the [fill in blank of your deity]

I’m sorry, I don’t understand what you’re trying to say.

Doesn’t the Qur’an also say that if it had been from other than Allah, you would have found in it many discrepancies? (Yes it does, 4:82.)

What about that “Verse of the Sword” in 9:5 that directs the Faithful (you among them, I am sure) to “kill the unbelievers [Mushrikun] wherever you find them” after the “sacred months.”??

THAT needs to abrogated. Except it is a LATER writing than the earlier ‘peaceful’ ones, isn’t it, Amy??

Later than what? Perhaps you might not realize this, but the Muslims were persecuted in Mecca for 13 years–no islamic state. The Qur’an which was revealed during that time was not legal, but predominately faith-based, in order to make the people’s hearts firm in their belief.

Then in Medina, the laws started to be revealed, because in Medina an “Islamic state” was established whereby Islam could become the rule and law for the people–which was not the case in Mecca. Jihad, fighting, was not used to establish the Islamic state. Not at all. And it was only permitted when the state had been established. So the matter isn’t abrogation of violence vs. peace or contradictions. The point is that sometimes one ruling applies, and sometimes another.

Again: similarities in a badly translated Lectionary, called the Koran, only point out what the source document was for Islam.

Eh?

It sure wasn’t an angel dictating to an illiterate merchant who copied on rocks and leaves and palm fronds.

Of course an illiterate merchant wouldn’t be writing on anything–rocks, leave, or palm fronds–would he? I really don’t understand what you’re getting at.

Parsecs, friend, parsecs.

Again, over my head.

The ONLY thing in common is monotheism. Everything else is Peninsular Arab tribe nationalism. Just like the white American nationalism of Mormonism.

What about the saying of Muhammad that a white man isn’t better than a black man, or a white man better than a black man, nor an Arab better than a non-Arab, or a non-Arab better than an Arab… except in piety in good deeds. Pretty much blows that theory out of the water.

I think you and Zerinus should PM on this one.

Who is Zerinus?

 

[FAB]

With all respect, I think I am in a position to say that you don’t fully understand my faith.

The words of the Qur’an are not meaningless to the discussion–in fact they are the hinge of it. If you want to prove me wrong, then you need to deal with this matter of the revelation of the Qur’an. Your position only makes sense if the Qur’an was not revealed, my position only makes sense if it was. That is the real crux, isn’t it?

Secondly, my faith does not require “submission to a strict set of laws to be saved.”

Salvation in Islam, as I recently explained in PM to one poster, is a matter explained in the Qur’an. You can examine the following passages, if you like, for the gist of it. Chapter 103, Verse 177 in chapter 2, Chapter 31 verses 12-19, and Chapter 41 verses 30-36.

You’ll see the first part is belief, in all cases. Laws don’t matter a thing without belief.

You don’t believe in the reserected Christ or that he’s is God, not just a prophet.
There is less proof that Mahammed was a prophet and even less that the Qur’an is any kind of revelation other than his own.
The difference in our faiths is that you can have your belief without worry that you will be killed for it, were as a Catholic, there are parts of the world that members of you faith are actively trying to kill people of my belief for believing what I stated. Do you really think that that is God’s plan for mankind?
By the way, I am talking about in today’s modern world, not 1000 years ago.
Peace,
FAB

 

[inJESUS]

If you pick up an Arabic newspaper, you won’t see any diacritical marks, Robert. The vowels aren’t to make the language make sense, they’re only for foreigners who rely on them as a crutch.

 

[inJESUS]

Jesus

 

[Sister_Amy]

You don’t believe in the reserected Christ or that he’s is God, not just a prophet.
There is less proof that Mahammed was a prophet and even less that the Qur’an is any kind of revelation other than his own.
The difference in our faiths is that you can have your belief without worry that you will be killed for it, were as a Catholic, there are parts of the world that members of you faith are actively trying to kill people of my belief for believing what I stated. Do you really think that that is God’s plan for mankind?
By the way, I am talking about in today’s modern world, not 1000 years ago.
Peace,
FAB

My peers live in fear of being arrested for their beliefs. They fear speaking out, that they won’t be able to travel. They watch their brothers and sisters and fathers tortured without ever being accused of a crime. They see friends held in solitary confinement, sisters jailed for refusing to uncover themselves.

It’s easy to say there is freedom of religion, when you don’t know the people who are imprisoned for theirs.

That is today’s modern world.

But if the time came for me, I hope I would not be afraid to die for my beliefs.

 

[Sister_Amy]

 

[Sister_Amy]

having desires to a married woman is zina ( Muhammad is guilty, as per the Quran and hadith). Having sex with possessions who are not your wife is adultery. Temporary marriages were not taught by Jesus and are aduletry 9even according to the majority Sunni of today), easy divorce and remarriage is adultry to Jesus. So you are quoting same teachings with different understanding.

 

[Reuben_J]

Teachings of Jesus and Teachings of Muhammad–the Parallels!

I should write an article about this… one day inshaaAllaah.

We did not ask for parallels but where is no Mohammad’s teaching that is equivalent to Jesus’ in the Gospel. May I remind you of the title of the thread again?

Jesus: 27 You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’[e] 28But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Matthew 5:23-24

Muhammad: The zina [adultery/fornication] of the eye is looking and the zina of the tongue is speaking. The heart wishes and longs and the private part confirms that or denies it. (Bukhari/Muslim)

Hadiths may be controversial to some Muslims. You accept some but reject some. It happens all the time in this forum. It is safe not to use the Hadith. Beside this thread is about the Bible (and the Quran).

Anyway as has been mentioned, Mohammad committed adultery according to this definition. Since Muslims also follow the example of Mohammad who cannot do wrong, the hadith is self null and void.

To save having to write long post, I will point to you one by one. Let’s start with this. If this digresses from the thread, you can start a new one just for this topic.

About not retaliating against an evil person:

**Matthew 5:39 (NAB)
But I tell you, offer no resistant to one who is evil. When someone strikes you on your right cheek, turn the other one to him as well.

Luke 6:29
To the person who strikes you on one cheek, offer the other one as well, and from the person who takes your cloak do not withhold even your tunic.
Jesus taught the above. Now please show us where Mohammad did the same in the Quran.**

Looking forward to hear from you. Thanks.

 

[Reuben_J]

We did not ask for parallels but where is no Mohammad’s teaching that is equivalent to Jesus’ in the Gospel. May I remind you of the title of the thread again?

Sorry about that. In my earlier exhanges with inJESUS we spoke about those teachings in the Bible that are being contradicted or not found in the Quran in reference to the title of the thread. So we did not ask for parallels.

 

[Reuben_J]

I quoted the Qur’an, which clearly indicates that forgiveness is better than retaliation.

The Gospel does not say forgiveness is better than retaliation. It says **NO **retaliation whatsoever. It goes even further - do not resist but instead give him even more than what he wants (offer the other check). In other word, reply evil with love. If you do not like the interpretation, you can just stick to the verses, it’s OK with me.

The teaching on forgiveness is this:

Mt 18:21-22
21Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?”
22Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times​

In other word, the call to forgive is unconditional and infinite.

 

[inJESUS]

inJESUS;4584929:

I was referring to vowels in writing, not in pronunciation.

Am I wrong?

yes because written Arabic without vowels doesn’t make sense. it is like writing in English without using the “a” or “u” or “i” letters so bd might mean bed or bud or bid. These letters have their diatrical marks known as fatha , damma and kasra which usually do not change the meaning completely, but *can *confuse the meaning or change it depending on their use.

Example of a vowel changing the meaning from the root QL:

Qila = it has been said

Qala: he said.

2 examples of vowel differences that change the meaning between the Hafs recitation and the Warsh recitation:

Yaqula (Hafs) : he says (2:214)
Yaqulu ( Warsh) : they say. (2:212)

yakdhibuuna (Hafs) : they lie (2:10)
yukadhdhibuuna (Warsh): they make them liars.(2:9)

 

[inJESUS]

am not imposing anything. Am showing what the Quran/Islam does not consider adultery when it is, so just saying “no adultery” does not mean the teaching is the same.

I quoted the Qur’an, which clearly indicates that forgiveness is better than retaliation

but still eye for eye is ok so you cannot compare these 2 teachings as if they were the same.

 

[Eucharisted]

Hi Jay!

1. Who corrupted the Gospels and to what end/purpose?

The major opinion is that the Catholic Church corrupted the Bible. There is some different opinons on the who and when: some say it was the Apostles, others say it was Rome, or the Vatican, or some translators. Some say it was at 70 AD, others say at the Reformation.

The end or purpose of said scriptural corruption is also different from account to account. There are some who say it was for power or control, others say it was to brainwash Christians and corrupt minds, some others say it was to bring out a religon from the person of Jesus, and a few say it was a mistake which the Vatican either couldn’t or wouldn’t correct.

1. What passages from the Gospels have not been corrupted?

For Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and the like, it’s all about one thing: how you interpret the Bible. A lot of Catholics on CAF don’t get this, but it’s not about how the Catholic Church interprets the Bible: for Muslims, it’s about they interpet the Bible; for Mormons, it’s about how they interpret the Bible; for Jehovah Witnesses, it’s about how they interpet the Bible, and so forth. You could ask a Muslim, a Mormon, and a Jehovah Witness what Jesus meant when He prophecies the coming of the Son of Man, and you’ll get three different interpretations of the prophesy, all of them based upon what the soul has been taught to see in the Bible.

So, what passages from the Gospels have not been corrupted? Generally, it’s those about Jesus’ miracles and parables. All the passages that speak about His Divinity or His Paschal Mysteries (Death, Resurrection, and Ascension) are considered to be corrupted. Now, Catholicity-speaking, we know that every little detail of the Gospels point to the Cross and that when Jesus spoke or acted, He did so to reveal His supernatural identity; however, not all non-Catholics believe this. So for them, only Jesus’ miracles and parables are free from corruption. Certainly some details of His birth and public life are considered incorrupt as well - for example, Jesus being born in a manager, Jesus being baptized by John the Baptist - but they are really just a selective few, cherry picked to fit and reinforce the teachings of one’s religion.

 

[dzheremi]

I was told by my Arabic professor that while the Arabic of Muhammad’s day lacked certain diacritics (so obviously the first Qur’ans wouldn’t have them), all religious texts (Qur’an, Bible, etc) will always be fully voweled (with regular long vowels, and the corresponding fatha, damma, kesra), as well as carrying the necessary gemination marker (shadda), hamzat l-wasl, and anything else necessary for proper pronounciation. All of this is to avoid any ambiguity where religious reasons demand that there be none, so those examples from inJESUS are interesting. While I understand, mechanically, why they differ, it strikes me as somewhat strange that they do: Did the people who translated the verses work from differing source materials, or did they just not understand the Arabic triconsonantal root system?

At first I didn’t understand why all texts (religious and not) shouldn’t be fully voweled…then the professor showed us a printed page from the Qur’an…silly me!