Which political philosophy do you follow?

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Hi

I am a convert. Grew up in Democrat home (Protestant,too) but a very different Democrat Party than we see today. My poor Grandpa must be spinning in his grave.
We grew up when the words “honor”, “courage”, “pride in Country”, “decency”, “morality”, all meant something great to Democrats. This was the days of good men like Hubert Humphry, Harry Truman and men of that stripe.

I changed and I am sure my Granpa would, today. He would love Zell Miller. That is his kind of Democrat.

I am now pretty conservative. And I am a Republican Conservative.
 
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robertaf:
Hi

I am a convert. Grew up in Democrat home (Protestant,too) but a very different Democrat Party than we see today. My poor Grandpa must be spinning in his grave.
We grew up when the words “honor”, “courage”, “pride in Country”, “decency”, “morality”, all meant something great to Democrats. This was the days of good men like Hubert Humphry, Harry Truman and men of that stripe.

I changed and I am sure my Granpa would, today. He would love Zell Miller. That is his kind of Democrat.

I am now pretty conservative. And I am a Republican Conservative.
Sounds like my upbringing although my parents were not only liberal Dems they were ahead of their time being totally secular as well.

I woke up when I was working at my first job after highschool and going to college at night. It seemed like you were punished for working (because of my minimum wage job I couldn’t get grants or low interest loans). Then I’d hear about people who purposely didn’t work for a year so they qualified for financial aid. In fact the counselor at the college suggested that! It seems to me that liberals and Democrats like to reward bad behavior and punish good behavior. The worse you are the more they want to hand over to you.

Lisa N
 
Tom of Assisi:
I more or less agree with this sentiment…but libertarians tend to focus on privacy at the expense of morality/religion it seems to me.
I know what you mean, but I think most of the incompatability is at the top levels of the Liberatarian Party contrary to what is found at lewrockwell. com. From what I have seen, the top echelon of the Libertarian Party feels that a woman’s property rights allows her to have an abortion if she so chooses. Among those writing for lewrockwell.com, the theory is that the unborn child’s rights outweigh the mother’s, thus negating the legality/morality of abortion. That is what I subscribe to.

I don’t feel libertarianism is incompatable with Catholicism/morality/religion. If we take charity, for example, libertarianism would have each of us contribute an appropriate amount of our labors and income/wealth to assist the less forturnate as opposed to having the governments tax us and redistribute the income. Nothing I can find incompatable with Christianity here, simply a difference in methodology. Our Lord never forced anyone to give to charity.
 
If I really had my druthers, I would rather live in a Catholic Theocracy
 
How come monarchy wasn’t one of the choices? Whatever happened to the “divine rights of kings”? 🙂

Anyway, I voted libertarian - of the stripe (like Elaine?) that views abortion as wrong.
 
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SteveT:
How come monarchy wasn’t one of the choices? Whatever happened to the “divine rights of kings”? 🙂

Anyway, I voted libertarian - of the stripe (like Elaine?) that views abortion as wrong.
Steve there are many things I find appealing about libertarianism such as less government interference. I’m a card carrying member of the Cato Institute However don’t they believe that choosing to use “recreational” drugs is up to the person? IOW do they believe in removing any penalties for buying, selling and using drugs? I heard this somewhere and if there is one thing I find offputting about this philosophy, it’s that kind of “freedom.”

Can you enlighten me or point me to a good description of libertarian values?

Lisa N
 
If I had to choose from the options above, I’d go with conservatism. But when it comes down to it, I go with Catholic teachings. 🙂
 
Lisa N said:
>>>>I’m a card carrying member of the Cato Institute However don’t they believe that choosing to use “recreational” drugs is up to the person? IOW do they believe in removing any penalties for buying, selling and using drugs? I heard this somewhere and if there is one thing I find offputting about this philosophy, it’s that kind of "freedom."Lisa N

I don’t know about the Cato Institute, but many libertarians, including the Libertarian Party platform and many writers for lewrockwell.com adovate the abolishment of the current drug laws. I, for one, do not have a problem with those who would like to indulge in recreational use of drugs, at least legally speaking. While there would be some negatives, there would also be some positives. By the same token, the government should not be collecting taxes to rehab those who become addicted through their drug use.

Furthermore, if I understand libertarian principles correctly, one locale would not necessarily dictate to another as to whether or not recreational drug use would be illegal or legal. If one wants to live in a recreational drug area, one can move to one and vice versa.

Personally, I have no desire to use recreational drugs.
 
In a nutshell, the libertarian idea starts with the most fundamental political question of all: what is the proper function of the state? If you look at the state, as an entity, you see that the defining characteristic of the state is power. In any society, the state is the ultimate, unappealable power. If the state mandates that you shall pay taxes, you shall pay taxes. If the state condemns you to death for breaking one of it’s laws, you will die. Now, what is the proper object to which the state should address that power? Following the “natural law” approach, libertarians conclude that the proper application of the power of the state ought to be confined to protecting the “life, liberty and pursuit of happiness” of the citizens of the state. Enforcing morality does not fit within that scope. From a Christian standpoint, it cannot fit within that scope, because as fallen men we are incapable of perfectly obeying the moral law, so if immorality is defined as a crime, the state would end up punishing the entire citizenry, hardly a workable political theory. In that theoretical framework, murder is banned by the state (deprives a person of life), theft is banned (deprives a citizen of their property - part of the “pursuit of happiness”), slavery is banned (liberty), etc., etc., etc… The state should not ban high fat foods like donuts (one of my own personal vices), because me freely buying donuts in no way interferes with somebody else’s life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness. Same with recreational drugs. Or prostitution. That’s not to say these things are good or OK, just that they are not the proper provence of the state.

“Now human law is framed for a number of human beings, the majority of whom are not perfect in virtue. Wherefore human laws do not forbid all vices, from which the virtuous abstain, but only the more grievous vices, from which it is possible for the majority to abstain; and chiefly those that are to the hurt of others, without the prohibition of which human society could not be maintained: thus human law prohibits murder, theft and such like.” Summa 1:2:95:2

I answer that, Human government is derived from the Divine government, and should imitate it. Now although God is all-powerful and supremely good, nevertheless He allows certain evils to take place in the universe, which He might prevent, lest, without them, greater goods might be forfeited, or greater evils ensue. Accordingly in human government also, those who are in authority, rightly tolerate certain evils, lest certain goods be lost, or certain greater evils be incurred: thus Augustine says (De Ordine ii, 4): “If you do away with harlots, the world will be convulsed with lust.”” Summa 2:2:10:11

Similarly, social welfare is also not properly within the scope of the state.

“In recent years the range of such intervention has vastly expanded, to the point of creating a new type of state, the so-called “Welfare State.” This has happened in some countries in order to respond better to many needs and demands, by remedying forms of poverty and deprivation unworthy of the human person. However, excesses and abuses, especially in recent years, have provoked very harsh criticisms of the Welfare State, dubbed the “Social Assistance State.” Malfunctions and defects in the Social Assistance State are the result of an inadequate understanding of the tasks proper to the State. Here again the principle of subsidiarity must be respected: a community of a higher order should not interfere in the internal life of a community of a lower order, depriving the latter of its functions, but rather should support it in case of need and help to coordinate its activity with the activities of the rest of society, always with a view to the common good.[100]
By intervening directly and depriving society of its responsibility, the Social Assistance State leads to a loss of human energies and an inordinate increase of public agencies, which are dominated more by bureaucratic ways of thinking than by concern for serving their clients, and which are accompanied by an enormous increase in spending. In fact, it would appear that needs are best understood and satisfied by people who are closest to them and who act as neighbors to those in need. It should be added that certain kinds of demands often call for a response which is not simply material but which is capable of perceiving the deeper human need. One thinks of the condition of refugees, immigrants, the elderly, the sick, and all those in circumstances which call for assistance, such as drug abusers: all these people can be helped effectively only by those who offer them genuine fraternal support, in addition to the necessary care.” - Pope John Paul II, “Centesimus Annus”, paragraph 48

I think you can make a pretty good case, as a Catholic, for a libertarian political philosophy.
 
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jwoods:
Who voted communism? :eek:
looks like we have two reds now. I wonder if they know just how incompatible socialism/communism is with Catholic teachings.
 
Thank you for the additional information on the Libertarian political profile. I find myself in agreement with much of the overall theory…where government belongs and doesn’t belong.

Could one of you flesh out the “recreational drug” issue a bit more? What would be considered a recreational drug? Would it be a drug that was not addicting? Or any drug as long as one used it without interfering with anyone else’s life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? Opiates? Meth? Oxycontin and its cousins (legal but restricted)

Having seen the impact of certain drugs I have a hard time supporting legalizing them. I think the power of addiction is so strong that legalizing or providing such drugs via a pharmacy, would result in more of an addiction problem than we have now. The upside I guess is that maybe some of the property crime now funding drugs like Meth would be reduced. But if the drugs were expensive and given Meth addicts tend not to be employed, I wonder how much crime would be prevented? Also given the state should not be funding treatment, what do we do with the addicts besides try to avoid them on the street?

Lisa N
 
Lisa N:
Thank you for the additional information on the Libertarian political profile. I find myself in agreement with much of the overall theory…where government belongs and doesn’t belong.

Could one of you flesh out the “recreational drug” issue a bit more? What would be considered a recreational drug? Would it be a drug that was not addicting? Or any drug as long as one used it without interfering with anyone else’s life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? Opiates? Meth? Oxycontin and its cousins (legal but restricted)

Having seen the impact of certain drugs I have a hard time supporting legalizing them. I think the power of addiction is so strong that legalizing or providing such drugs via a pharmacy, would result in more of an addiction problem than we have now. The upside I guess is that maybe some of the property crime now funding drugs like Meth would be reduced. But if the drugs were expensive and given Meth addicts tend not to be employed, I wonder how much crime would be prevented? Also given the state should not be funding treatment, what do we do with the addicts besides try to avoid them on the street?

Lisa N
Perhaps this will help

Reply to Objection 3: Human law is said to permit certain things, not as approving them, but as being unable to direct them. And many things are directed by the Divine law, which human law is unable to direct, because more things are subject to a higher than to a lower cause. Hence the very fact that human law does not meddle with matters it cannot direct, comes under the ordination of the eternal law. It would be different, were human law to sanction what the eternal law condemns. Consequently it does not follow that human law is not derived from the eternal law, but that it is not on a perfect equality with it.1 2 q.93 a3 r3

ccel.org/a/aquinas/summa/FS/FS093.html#FSQ93OUTP1

St. Thomas uses prostitution as an example of a law which can be applied variously and not strictly on all citizens in all areas of the state because greater harm may be caused by a more strict enforcement.
 
Lisa:

Speaking as a life-long tea-totaller, I have seen the impacts of alcohol on people’s lives, how addictive it is and how many lives have been ruined by it. I don’t think there’s any question that a significant percentage of crimes that are committed are done under the influence of alcohol, and no doubt much out-of-wedlock conceptions - some of which end in abortions - are alcohol related too. Do you support governmental prohibition of alcohol?

Do you support the governmental prohibition of tobacco?

Do you support the governmental prohibition of high-fat foods?

The question, I think, is one of general principles.

I don’t think the government should be in the business of enforcing morality or preventing us from making stupid choices, so long as those choices don’t infringe upon another person’s rights.

“Also given the state should not be funding treatment, what do we do with the addicts”

I believe it is accurate to say AA has been far more effective at helping alcoholics than any governmental programs. As the citation from the pope in my previous post suggested, these folks need charity, which is not an essential characteristic of the state and hence is a function for which the state is woefully ill suited.

That being said, I shoud say that I am a sort of “moderate” libertarian, in that I don’t think the government has no role to play at all. The pope also ascribes some responsibility to the government, so I think I’m in good company there too. 🙂 I think, in particular, that the government’s power makes it an incomparable source of funding, and that it is appropriate for society to use the power of the state to compel a certain level of charitable activity (because of the externalities associated with charity, i.e., if my charitable giving makes your neighborhood safer, then you benefit, and if you benefit, then you should pay your fair share). My idea would be to completely abolish the welfare state, and in it’s place put a tax credit for an amount equivalent to the amount the state is spending now on welfare programs. In it’s oversight function, I would propose an SEC-type organization to develop standardized reporting requirements (and related auditing requirements) for registered charitable organizations, and only registered charities would be eligible for tax credit monies. The result would be competition for charitable funds, a large pool of such funds available, and generally reliable information for the donors to make decisions about where best to apply their charitable giving. But each individual would be allowed to choose which charity to support - e.g., if I want my money going to a Catholic charity, I can so direct it; if my neighbor wants to support a Muslim charity, he can do so, etc., etc… IMHO, such a structure would be vastly more efficient at relieving poverty, addiction, etc., then what we’re doing now. And, I think it respects the principle of subsidiarity the pope lays out in his encyclical.

I strongly recommend reading Centesimus Annus, if you haven’t already. I think it’s absolutely brilliant. A darn shame the “catholic” candidate for president hasn’t read it, nor proposed anything remotely conforming to the pope’s vision.
 
Lisa N:
Thank you for the additional information on the Libertarian political profile. I find myself in agreement with much of the overall theory…where government belongs and doesn’t belong.

Could one of you flesh out the “recreational drug” issue a bit more? What would be considered a recreational drug? Would it be a drug that was not addicting? Or any drug as long as one used it without interfering with anyone else’s life, liberty and pursuit of happiness? Opiates? Meth? Oxycontin and its cousins (legal but restricted)

Having seen the impact of certain drugs I have a hard time supporting legalizing them. I think the power of addiction is so strong that legalizing or providing such drugs via a pharmacy, would result in more of an addiction problem than we have now. The upside I guess is that maybe some of the property crime now funding drugs like Meth would be reduced. But if the drugs were expensive and given Meth addicts tend not to be employed, I wonder how much crime would be prevented? Also given the state should not be funding treatment, what do we do with the addicts besides try to avoid them on the street?

Lisa N
Drug and addiction problems are very serious in our society. Aside from cigerettes and alcohol I would not like to see any of “recreational” drugs legalized. Dope and Meth distort brain function too much and if you have the mind of a violin–dope will turn it into a banjo. In Oregon, as you know, most identity theft and property crime stems from people getting money to buy meth.

People should be dependent on God and not on mind-altering drugs. If commonsense, morality, or the Church won’t be a persuasive enough force for people not to engage in “recreational” drugs than I think it is a legitimate function of government to do so.
 
Steve T wirtes: “I don’t think the government should be in the business of enforcing morality”

Actually that is the primary function of government. Now enforcement of morality takes of different forms depending on the end. For instance self defense against murder is an enforcement of the moral law.

Second, as St. Thomas writes, governments exist to make men good.
 
Steve & Dymphna thank you for the additional information. As to Steve’s questions, while I wish smoking and alchohol had not become entrenched in our society I think trying to make them illegal would be opposed so strongly it would not even make sense. So while I agree neither smoking or drinking (over age) should be outlawed, I think something like illegal drug use should remain illegal. It’s just such a problem to get the genie back in the bottle once we let him out (as we did with cigarettes and booze).

Meth seems to be the drug du jour at least here. It is so mind altering that people literally become unrecognizable to their families. Not only is a lot of property crime associated with meth, there is a lot of violent crime. A very popular pastor was just gunned down by his meth addict son. Ironically the ingredients are legal but mixed and “cooked” are not. Our governor’s suggestion is to register your name every time you bought Sudafed when in reality the big suppliers are the problem, not the weekend meth cooker. So in that Steve, you can see the exact WRONG action by the government nanny state. Yeah let’s register law abiding folks who have colds and not go after the major suppliers. Oh well.

Anyway I like much of libertarianism. Could you refer me to that reading? I’m afraid I don’t know the source.

Lisa N
 
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