D
DrWeed
Guest
I was just wondering if anyone has heard of saints who were aware of relatives/friends being sent to Hell. Let me explain my practical purpose for asking such a gruesome question: scores of people I know are not only explicitly, consciously rejecting many of the moral teachings of the Catholic Church, but are digging in their heels and worsening all the time. It’s really disturbing to watch; it’s like those scenes in “The Fly” where Jeff Goldblum starts to look and act more and more like a monster a little bit more each day. Knowing their personalities well, I sincerely doubt that most of them can reach repentance, at least not without minor miracles I know they don’t deserve. Severe personal tragedy that jolts them out of their ways might be the only remedy; “I will open their ears with adversity” etc. It is quite obvious that with each passing decade, the whole Western world is rejecting the gamut of Catholic morality more brazenly; it’s like being trapped in a dirty fish tank. We know in great detail what the standards of judgment will be and in our age, it’s not difficult to quantify how many millions more people are committing grave matter than in ages previous. I’m a historian by trade, so I know that the proportions have changed rapidly over the past century, ranging from hot-button modern issues like gay marriage to unspeakable horrors like abortion to forgotten sins that it is uncouth to speak of now, like speculation and price gouging. I’m aware of dozens upon dozens of relatives and friends who are rapidly degenerating before my very eyes and who only dig in their heels when anyone reminds them of the Catholic code of morality; they’re like patients who are so sick they can’t help but vomit out their only medicine.
Pick any mortal sin and I can name scores of people I care about who now embrace it fully; just as a “no-brainer” example, I now know of at least a dozen people who claim the right to openly cheat on their spouses, including 3 siblings. Unlike the adulterer Jesus saved from stoning; they would furiously demand that he stop telling them what to do if he said “Go, but do not sin again.” One has cheated on 3 husbands, covered it up with trumped-up abuse allegations, then went out and topped it off by getting a mail order license to marry people. She just remarried again the other day, after I made her explicitly aware of each Biblical passage against divorce. I’m only singling her out because she’s an extreme, recent and obvious example. I know probably 100+ people who are divorced and would become violently indignant if a priest were to tell them that both the new Catechism and that of Trent define it as grave matter. If the national stats are any guide, at least another hundred have murdered their own children through abortion. Most will certainly go to their graves in willful defiance of Catholic morals, with no sorrow at all for the victims of their crimes. I must admit that most of these people really don’t deserve any forgiveness, because they’re explicitly aware of what they’re doing, but I hold out hope that at least a couple might have deathbed conversions someday or whatever.
It is distressing to see that sort of loved ones make those kinds of dangerous choices, but my question’s somewhat selfish, since it stands to reason that I will have a tough time even extricating myself. Since “a good tree does not bear bad fruit,” I question how either I or any of my acquaintances or myself can be saved, if we are outgrowths of the same tree. I wish everyone I know would repent, but realistically it is difficult to envision any being saved without divine intervention of an unusual kind. Joining the Church would not be enough. How many “converts,” for example, actually acknowledge all of the moral commandments, let alone put them into practice?
We know from such sources as St. Leonard’s “The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved” ) that the majority of adults don’t make it, even in the best of times. We also have empirical evidence of just how little it takes (by worldly standards) to be damned, from sources like Padre Pio, who once threw a mother out of confession after receiving a vision of her deceased daughters in Hell. Their crime seemed tame by today’s standards: wearing revealing clothing with the purpose of exciting lust in boys. In a rather twisted way, it would be of comfort to know that saints have escaped similar circumstances, after being hemmed in by others destined to damn themselves. I know that we are not to despair for any specific person’s salvation, that it is not good to be judgmental, etc. etc. but as a practical matter, it is helpful to have empirical evidence that it is possible. More and more, I find myself trusting in hagiography for sound advice, particularly in difficult matters like this; I can’t recall any examples of saints who’ve had visions of their own loved ones in Hell, but we know that many saints have had visions of others being damned. I’ve noticed that saints seem to come from more wholesome backgrounds than most of us (with some exceptions, like Germaine Cousin). I’m happy for them, but that also means that neither nor anyone I know has a snowball’s chance in Hell (pun intended). I can’t think of a single person I know who’s had the kind of humble, pious upbringing that breeds saints; that whole culture was rejected several generations ago. Realistically, at least a majority of the people I know personally aren’t going to make it; I’m just hoping that it doesn’t turn into a 100% loss. I know it’s possible on abstract grounds; but in a roundabout way, saints with relatives and friends in Hell would serve as a concrete reminder that salvation will be possible even in the midst of such dark times. If anyone knows of any such examples, please share them
Thanks
Pick any mortal sin and I can name scores of people I care about who now embrace it fully; just as a “no-brainer” example, I now know of at least a dozen people who claim the right to openly cheat on their spouses, including 3 siblings. Unlike the adulterer Jesus saved from stoning; they would furiously demand that he stop telling them what to do if he said “Go, but do not sin again.” One has cheated on 3 husbands, covered it up with trumped-up abuse allegations, then went out and topped it off by getting a mail order license to marry people. She just remarried again the other day, after I made her explicitly aware of each Biblical passage against divorce. I’m only singling her out because she’s an extreme, recent and obvious example. I know probably 100+ people who are divorced and would become violently indignant if a priest were to tell them that both the new Catechism and that of Trent define it as grave matter. If the national stats are any guide, at least another hundred have murdered their own children through abortion. Most will certainly go to their graves in willful defiance of Catholic morals, with no sorrow at all for the victims of their crimes. I must admit that most of these people really don’t deserve any forgiveness, because they’re explicitly aware of what they’re doing, but I hold out hope that at least a couple might have deathbed conversions someday or whatever.
It is distressing to see that sort of loved ones make those kinds of dangerous choices, but my question’s somewhat selfish, since it stands to reason that I will have a tough time even extricating myself. Since “a good tree does not bear bad fruit,” I question how either I or any of my acquaintances or myself can be saved, if we are outgrowths of the same tree. I wish everyone I know would repent, but realistically it is difficult to envision any being saved without divine intervention of an unusual kind. Joining the Church would not be enough. How many “converts,” for example, actually acknowledge all of the moral commandments, let alone put them into practice?
We know from such sources as St. Leonard’s “The Little Number of Those Who Are Saved” ) that the majority of adults don’t make it, even in the best of times. We also have empirical evidence of just how little it takes (by worldly standards) to be damned, from sources like Padre Pio, who once threw a mother out of confession after receiving a vision of her deceased daughters in Hell. Their crime seemed tame by today’s standards: wearing revealing clothing with the purpose of exciting lust in boys. In a rather twisted way, it would be of comfort to know that saints have escaped similar circumstances, after being hemmed in by others destined to damn themselves. I know that we are not to despair for any specific person’s salvation, that it is not good to be judgmental, etc. etc. but as a practical matter, it is helpful to have empirical evidence that it is possible. More and more, I find myself trusting in hagiography for sound advice, particularly in difficult matters like this; I can’t recall any examples of saints who’ve had visions of their own loved ones in Hell, but we know that many saints have had visions of others being damned. I’ve noticed that saints seem to come from more wholesome backgrounds than most of us (with some exceptions, like Germaine Cousin). I’m happy for them, but that also means that neither nor anyone I know has a snowball’s chance in Hell (pun intended). I can’t think of a single person I know who’s had the kind of humble, pious upbringing that breeds saints; that whole culture was rejected several generations ago. Realistically, at least a majority of the people I know personally aren’t going to make it; I’m just hoping that it doesn’t turn into a 100% loss. I know it’s possible on abstract grounds; but in a roundabout way, saints with relatives and friends in Hell would serve as a concrete reminder that salvation will be possible even in the midst of such dark times. If anyone knows of any such examples, please share them
Thanks
Not only did he become a Christian, he became a bishop, a great saint and doctor of the Church. Would that have happened if St. Monica hadn’t prayed for him? If she didn’t, he probably wouldn’t be in Heaven right now. The power of our prayers, sacrifices and fasts pack quite the punch! Don’t despair of seeing so many people you know living in sin. By the way, you sound like a loving person and a good friend. Keep in mind though that no one ever was converted to Christ by being beaten over the head with a sermon. Like St. Francis said, “Preach the Gospel at all times and when necessary use words.” The Bible says that they will know we are Christians by our love, not by our arguments. In fact our words to them, however well intentioned they may be, can have disastrous results when we don’t pray for guidance from the Holy Spirit first. By the way, I’m not suggesting that you do any of the above things. I’m just making a point.
I’m not going to get 300 miraculous conversions to cover everyone I know, LOL. The context is also very different now, since modern morals are far worse than what they grew up with; it’s not like Arius went around preaching that Christ tolerated abortion, as so many clerics and ministers do these days. We are better dressed these days, but far more barbaric, as Chesterton warned back in the '30s.
