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Reuben_J
Guest
He is not presumptuous because it is a statement of faith; Jugdment is God’s notwithstanding.
So this is quite tricky. Like I said, it is only good if you know what the person means.
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So this is quite tricky. Like I said, it is only good if you know what the person means.
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concretecamper
Guest
16 - For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting.
John 3:16 says may…not shall.
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John 3:16 says may…not shall.
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concretecamper
Guest
Augustine on John 3:16
For why is He called the Savior of the world, but because He saves the world? The physician, so far as his will is concerned, heals the sick. If the sick despises or will not observe the directions of the physician, he destroys himself.
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For why is He called the Savior of the world, but because He saves the world? The physician, so far as his will is concerned, heals the sick. If the sick despises or will not observe the directions of the physician, he destroys himself.
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concretecamper
Guest
Satan believes in the only begotten Son. Belief does not = salvation.
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concretecamper
Guest
If you make a good confession with a firm purpose of amendment, perform you penance…and then you immediately die…lights out…you will get to heaven. This is what the Catholic Church teaches.
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jmcrae
Guest
Yes.
And if you qualify for an Indulgence then in fact you would go straight to Heaven. :extrahappy: :extrahappy: :extrahappy:
Which is why it is a very good idea to go to Confession once a week (so as to have been to Confession within the past 8 days, as required for an Indulgence) and to pray daily for the Pope using the Our Father, the Hail Mary, and the Glory Be, on a daily basis (required to have made this prayer the same day) and receive Holy Communion on a daily basis (required to have received Holy Communion the same day) and to have done the action for which an Indulgence is granted (for example, to read the Scriptures for 15 minutes in a devotional manner) on the same day.
If a fully initiated Catholic who is in good standing with the Church (ie: not divorced and remarried, and not an habitual sinner) makes it a habit to do these things daily, and to go to Confession weekly, he or she will go straight to Heaven at the moment of death.
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jmcrae
Guest
No, no - he meant, the person who prays does not pray by himself. We say “Our Father who art in Heaven,” not "My Father … " The Church is a “we” not an “I”. It is the Church who is saved; not the individual. Individuals who are members of the Church are saved because they are in the Church, but God doesn’t pick and choose among individuals to save them.
If you are “in the boat” (the Church) when God comes for us, then you will be saved along with everyone else who is “in the boat” but if you are not in the boat, then you are tossed on the waves, and you will not be saved.
Just as in the days of Noah, when those who did not get “on the boat” were not saved from God’s wrath. And God could still say that He had saved the human race, in the eight persons who got on the boat and who were saved, even though millions and perhaps billions of people refused to get on the boat, thinking they knew of a better way to get saved.
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ffg
Guest
heard a great few lines from this morning’s radio speaker. Fr. John Ricardo. I highly recommend his podcasts.
The key today was that much of the teaching around sacraments used to not come until after someone recieved them because the grace provided through the sacrament helps in the understanding of the teaching.
Perhaps this is why we recieve much of them when we are young. How much can we really understand about them in second grade? But with them and the graces from them, we are helped by the fruits of the Spirit over time.
We can explain until we turn blue about them, but it is not we who provide the graces to ourselves.
Someone who does not partake in the sacraments should consider this point in analyzing them.
If it is true they deliver grace, it is logical they deliver fruits of the spirit, in this case ‘understanding’.
The key today was that much of the teaching around sacraments used to not come until after someone recieved them because the grace provided through the sacrament helps in the understanding of the teaching.
Perhaps this is why we recieve much of them when we are young. How much can we really understand about them in second grade? But with them and the graces from them, we are helped by the fruits of the Spirit over time.
We can explain until we turn blue about them, but it is not we who provide the graces to ourselves.
Someone who does not partake in the sacraments should consider this point in analyzing them.
If it is true they deliver grace, it is logical they deliver fruits of the spirit, in this case ‘understanding’.
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With regard to the focus of the discussion being 'heart stopped just after proper confession'. I would be careful and be sure to mention there is still judgement. The result of which we can assume due to Church teaching, but only God has the gavel.
The questioner and the answerer in these scenario's above mean two different things when asking 'you are saved right?' and answering 'yes'. The minds are not on the same wave length.
The answer of 'Yes' is not understood in the Catholic sense by the questioner, thus confusion and misinterpretation.
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Sacredheart1208
Guest
Why would Jesus give His apostles power to forgive sins then?
Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
John 20:23
This shows Jesus gave His apostles power to forgive sins. In no way does the priest have the authority on his own, it is only Christ who gives him the authority. Here’s a picture that might help!https://www.google.com/search?q=divine+mercy+confession&client=safari&hl=en&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=wwz4UflJgb3IAfXBgbgB&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAA&biw=768&bih=928#biv=i|0%3Bd|Zox0J3AZVn01zM%3A
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Patti_M
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Hello Sacredheart. I quoted John 20:23 at the beginning of this thread. I did not received any response from the OP. Sure would be nice if he would answer this one simple question. It might have saved us all alot of typing.
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Sacredheart1208
Guest
Isn’t it funny how proof from scripture works?Hello Sacredheart. I quoted John 20:23 at the beginning of this thread. I did not received any response from the OP. Sure would be nice if he would answer this one simple question. It might have saved us all alot of typing.
I guess they don’t fully subscribe to sola Scriptura after all? For if the bibles the sole authority this case would be closed with that piece of scripture!
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Patti_M
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I agree! they (non-Catholics) are always saying “where’s that in the Bible”? When you give them the exact location & scripture quote they ignore you. OP please open your Bible to John 20:23 and read “whose sin you shall forgive, they are forgiven, whose sin you shall retain, they are retained.” END OF THREADIsn’t it funny how proof from scripture works?
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Sacredheart1208
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JRKH
Guest
While I certainly understand the frustration of having a quote ignored…we need to remember that there is a wide range of non-catholic out there…some are more adamant on the “where is that in the bible” than others.
I’m not exactly sure where onHisteam falls in the spectrum…
Anyway…I hope that he will comment on the proposed verse…
Peace
James
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jmcrae
Guest
In special circumstances, God gives leeway. In this case, a sincerely repentant heart and the intention to go to Confession at the earliest reasonable opportunity would suffice.
I’m going to give you another scenario that is like this one in many ways.
We have two children: James and Peter.
James is extremely ill; he has Hodgkin’s Lymphoma, which is not a good disease for a child to have. Many children who get this disease die before they reach adulthood.
Peter, on the other hand, is in perfect health and furthermore, he is a very intelligent and athletic young lad.
They are both enrolled in Grade 4 at St. Pythagoras Elementary School.
Peter is required to attend classes every Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday from September 1st until June 30th. He has to get up at 6:30 every morning, bathe, get dressed, eat breakfast, brush his teeth, and walk five blocks to school, and he must arrive there no later than 8:15 am, which is when his teacher records attendance. If he arrives even a few moments late, he has to take a note from his teacher to the Principal’s office to explain why he is late, and if his excuse isn’t very good, or if he lies, he gets points docked from his overall achievement score. He has to stay at the school until 3:30 pm every afternoon. He can’t leave early unless he has a medical appointment, and even then, his mother must arrange with the teacher ahead of time to have him excused.
James comes to class any time he feels well enough. Sometimes he only stays for one class and then goes home because he is feeling so tired. Most days, he sleeps through the morning, and then comes to school in the afternoon. On days when he is feeling especially poorly, the school sends a teacher to his house to tutor him privately while he stays in bed.
On the weeks when he is undergoing chemotherapy, no one comes to see him at all, in case they might bring germs with them, and he has no schooling at all during those weeks, except for assigned readings that he does by himself, if he thinks of it or remembers to do them.
Because of the accommodations being made for James, Peter and James are both earning similar grades, and both of them will advance to Grade 5 in September.
Peter could look at this situation and say, “Hey! I want to stay home like James does, and still get good grades from the teacher. Why do I have to follow different rules than James does? Why is everything so much more difficult for me than for James, when it comes to school work?”
Can you explain to Peter why James is allowed to stay home and do his work whenever he wants to, and yet still gets the same grades that Peter gets, when he goes to school every day on time, and works very hard all day? And why Peter would get an “F” and have to repeat the 4th Grade if he tried the same thing?
In the same way, God requires those of us who are in good health and the ability to go to Confession to in fact do so. In situations where it is physically impossible for the person to go to Confession, God doesn’t require it, just as the teacher doesn’t require James to do things that are physically impossible for him to do - but yet demands them and requires them of Peter, who is fully capable of doing them.
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rcwitness
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I wasnt specifically meaning that, though that is indirectly what i meant too.
Prayer has many aspects. We can pray to the faithful departed (Personal friends in Christ, or officially permitted Saints of the Church) which is conversational and reverently, but not in the worship and glorify sense. In the brotherhood and humble way…acknowledging our asscociation with the body. Requesting intercessions as taking care of one another, knowing our high priest has many members. So in this way you are correct too, jmcrae. We are praying to God together…looking to Him.
Can we look at Jesus without seeing His mother? So too she is looking at Him and sees all of us! We pray to Jesus in helping the poor. We pray to Jesus in confessing before our pastor.
If we cannot confess to our pastor, can we confess to God? Or if we can confess to God can we not bear to confess to our elder and appointed? They should know who we are too! And we should not be scandalized to pray to God in our pastor, when we have sinned. But only because it is a Sacrament! This foundation is why we can know that Jesus is there in his person and office in order to draw our hearts out of sin.
Michael
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ProdigalSun
Guest
I would like to ask “ONHISSTEAM” from your original post you asked if your friend could be saved and most assuredly everyone said that it is possible. So we agree with your Idea of asking Forgiveness with complete contrition with out a preist. I wonder If you in turn understand and agree with confession to a priest. especially in light of the many scriptural passages that were given to you.
Just curious how all of this discussion has touched your heart and mind. Can you at least understand why Catholics believe this way.
Peace!
Just curious how all of this discussion has touched your heart and mind. Can you at least understand why Catholics believe this way.
Peace!
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rcwitness
Guest
I 2nd that:thumbsup:I would like to ask “ONHISSTEAM” from your original post you asked if your friend could be saved and most assuredly everyone said that it is possible. So we agree with your Idea of asking Forgiveness with complete contrition with out a preist. I wonder If you in turn understand and agree with confession to a priest. especially in light of the many scriptural passages that were given to you.
Just curious how all of this discussion has touched your heart and mind. Can you at least understand why Catholics believe this way.
Peace!
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jmcrae
Guest
Right - excellent points! I would only add, you cannot have a “relationship” with Jesus, without also becoming “related to” His mother, and all of the Saints whom He claims as brothers and sisters.I wasnt specifically meaning that, though that is indirectly what i meant too.
Prayer has many aspects. We can pray to the faithful departed (Personal friends in Christ, or officially permitted Saints of the Church) which is conversational and reverently, but not in the worship and glorify sense. In the brotherhood and humble way…acknowledging our asscociation with the body. Requesting intercessions as taking care of one another, knowing our high priest has many members. So in this way you are correct too, jmcrae. We are praying to God together…looking to Him.
Can we look at Jesus without seeing His mother? So too she is looking at Him and sees all of us! We pray to Jesus in helping the poor. We pray to Jesus in confessing before our pastor.
If we cannot confess to our pastor, can we confess to God? Or if we can confess to God can we not bear to confess to our elder and appointed? They should know who we are too! And we should not be scandalized to pray to God in our pastor, when we have sinned. But only because it is a Sacrament! This foundation is why we can know that Jesus is there in his person and office in order to draw our hearts out of sin.
Michael
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HumbledSinner
Guest
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