White people have 13 dollars for every dollar held by black Americans

[stinkcat_14]

You possibly believe that unemployment is 5.8% as well, Cat? uch:

What evidence do you have that it is not 5.8%? Do you think we should count as unemployed people who are too lazy to look for work (aka discourage workers)?

 

[Ridgerunner]

So were these banks forced to make bad loans?

I’m sure they made them to the extent they had to, but beyond that, I doubt it. As I understand Community Reinvestment Act, you don’t have to go much outside your regular trade area to make loans. So the number of bad loans you have to make would depend on where your facilities are.

That would not, of course, free you from potential “pattern discrimination” liability. Banks are required to at least solicit minority loans actively. Sometimes that can mean you end up making loans that are shaky.

But it’s not a cut and dried thing. Really assertive bankers can sometime make regulators back down to a degree, but only to a degree. Some (particularly if they have other problems) are supine to whatever the regulators tell them to do.

 

[bisco1]

anyone who has followed the research on the mortgage crisis knows that it goes way beyond politicians fighting redlining. it was a grande party, attended by finical connoisseurs from all over the world. even the bank regulators and rating houses looked the other way, for a small amount of renumeration, no doubt. all at the expense of the taxpayers, or should i say debt holders, who had to come in the next day and sweep the floor.

 

[petra22]

Hate to puncture your idyllic Roman fantasy. They had taxes, property taxes and pensions in Rome. They had usury. The “republic” really had an oligarchic class that exploited the people and the government bureaucracies. Should not be surprising it evolved to become an empire. They also had numerous financial crises that often affected the entire Empire. The Roman Empire’s final collapse happened when taxes became so onerous that the tax base disappeared and the empire imploded. The collapse was so drastic that the city of Rome went from about 1.6m population in the year 400 to about 200k in the year 600 and it took until the 19th century to get back to 1.6m. Think about that.

I loved the history lesson. Thanks!

 

[petra22]

The Roman civilization lasted from about 700 BC to the late 1400’s AD, over 2,000 years. The period you refer to was maybe 200 years in the West and those taxes still did not reach 50% as ours are at.

The average Roman had more personal freedom even under the Caesars than we have today.

I know the Truth hurts, but pretending different doesn’t change a thing.

More history. I seriously enjoy the banter!

 

[RGCheek]

Conditions in the empire varied a lot from time to time.

There were times in which the coinage was severely debased by alloying with non-precious metals. There were times when coinage was then reformed.

There were times in which the population was low and there were times when it was high. France, for instance, probably didn’t regain the population level it had under the empire until at least the 19th Century. There were times when barbarian tribes were invited into the empire to settle empty lands and there were times when invasion was thwarted by heavy populations and strong military almost everywhere.

There were times when land was inexpensive, and times when it was beyond the means of normal people. There were times when it was simply given to veterans by the government, and there were times when it wasn’t.

There were times of debt crisis when small landowners not only had to sell or, through foreclosure, otherwise lose their land to wealthier people but sell themselves and their children as well. At least you’ll not have to do that.

The alloy of gold and silver was known as ‘electrum’ and it is still worth more than strips of linen paper with green ink on it.

And yes, the empire had all kinds of fluctuations in population and wealth due to plagues, civil war and invasion.

But the original point was that those nasty ‘Publicans’ that collected taxes stayed between 1 and 3%. The 3% tax was considered ghastly and some people fled into and assimilated into the German tribes, dropped their Roman citizenship and even accepted servitude to get away from that nasty 3% tax.

Even as late as 1776 our forefathers rebelled from a very low tax on paper and tea.

And we are passive paying a net total 52% of our income in taxes at all levels and do nothing.

 

[stinkcat_14]

The alloy of gold and silver was known as ‘electrum’ and it is still worth more than strips of linen paper with green ink on it.

And yes, the empire had all kinds of fluctuations in population and wealth due to plagues, civil war and invasion.

But the original point was that those nasty ‘Publicans’ that collected taxes stayed between 1 and 3%. The 3% tax was considered ghastly and some people fled into and assimilated into the German tribes, dropped their Roman citizenship and even accepted servitude to get away from that nasty 3% tax.

Even as late as 1776 our forefathers rebelled from a very low tax on paper and tea.

And we are passive paying a net total 52% of our income in taxes at all levels and do nothing.

I am not sure what you mean by electrum is “worth” more. In our society, we significantly prefer dollars to gold and silver, because we use them every day. So as a medium of exchange dollars are clearly more valuable.

Also, you want to cite some data that shows we pay 52% of our incomes in tax.

 

[RGCheek]

I am not sure what you mean by electrum is “worth” more. In our society, we significantly prefer dollars to gold and silver, because we use them every day. So as a medium of exchange dollars are clearly more valuable.

There is an inherent value to gold and silver because you can make things with them, from jewelry, to musical instruments, to glass coatings that filter out sunlight so well they use gold for astronaut suits. The electrical conductivity of gold and silver surpass that of copper and aluminum. Silver is also used in widespread industrial use and is consumed leaving less of it from total global supplies each year that mines have to replenish, so it is a consumed commodity that can appreciate in value if mine production does not kept up with demand.

But silver and gold are always worth something. Linen strips are not. Bank credit is not as the bank you have credit with can always go out of business. The dollar you think you hold is actually a dollar of credit from the Federal Reserve banking system, which is the only medium of exchange because that is enforced by law. IF you try to use precious metals as a medium of exchange or store of value, the feds might raid you, confiscate all your property and throw you in jail as the did the promoters of the ‘Liberty Dollar.’ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar

The government protects its monopoly on currency production in order to control the economy and they do not tolerate interlopers of any kind.

Also, you want to cite some data that shows we pay 52% of our incomes in tax.

Rather than simply give you a link to an article that asserts that this is what we pay, let’s walk through the numbers.

First, the percentage of average income paid in direct taxes to government at all levels is 32%.
uwgb.edu/DutchS/PSEUDOSC/FairTax.HTM
Taxes at all levels of government as percentage of average adjusted individual income is: Proportion of Adjusted Gross Income: 32.7%

But they calculate Adjusted Gross Income to include a number of things most of us don’t have.
•Personal Income 2003: (Table 657)◦Total $9,169.1 billion
◦Wages $5,111.1 billion
◦Fringe Benefits $1,210 billion
◦Proprietor Income 941.9 $billion
◦Asset Income (interest, dividends, etc.) $1,338.7 billion
◦Government social benefits to persons $1,313.5 billion

I think it safe to say that most of us do not have proprietor income, only a few of us have Asset Income, and most do not draw government social benefits during most of our lives.

So the 32% is really closer to 50% for most of us.

Then there is also sales taxes, fuel taxes, user fees etc that are not included in the above income tax calculations, but are nonetheless a tax we all pay.

Then there is the employer taxes and mandatory costs imposed by government that are part of the total employee costs that they are willing to spend. When your employer pays 8% to social security, that is money YOU would have earned as part of the total employee compensation that you never see, but you still got ‘taxed’ in the form of lost compensation. I wont even go into the lost income from interest you could have earned on your withheld taxes.

But aside from that, the INDIRECT taxes add another 20% in the cost of what we consume in services and goods we purchase. Those things we buy are taxed at the other end of the business deal, but their COSTS GET PASSED ON TO US as consumers in the final price we pay. The cost of the bread we eat in the store is not supposed to be taxed but it is, as the producer had to ship that bread to market and paid energy taxes and corporate taxes that are built into the price of the bread.
investopedia.com/financial-edge/0111/the-unseen-taxes-that-you-pay-every-day.aspx

Farmers may be eligible for subsidies, but they pay property taxes and income taxes. The trucker who takes the grain to market pays taxes for his license, his rig and his fuel. The grain elevator has property, employment, income and sales taxes. The miller, the bakery, the store and every other link in the chain has its own taxes as well, whether they are assessed on property, sales, income, wages, fuel or what have you.

All these taxes and government costs are passed along to the consumer in the final price of that loaf of bread.

But most of us do not see the money we pay in taxes when we buy goods. We don’t see the fuel tax, corporate tax, the store’s taxes, etc. And so we don’t see the pain. All we know is that our money doesn’t stretch nearly so far as before.

And just wait till Congress finally passes a Value Added Tax! Then the fun really starts.

 

[stinkcat_14]

There is an inherent value to gold and silver because you can make things with them, from jewelry, to musical instruments, to glass coatings that filter out sunlight so well they use gold for astronaut suits. The electrical conductivity of gold and silver surpass that of copper and aluminum. Silver is also used in widespread industrial use and is consumed leaving less of it from total global supplies each year that mines have to replenish, so it is a consumed commodity that can appreciate in value if mine production does not kept up with demand.

But silver and gold are always worth something. Linen strips are not. Bank credit is not as the bank you have credit with can always go out of business. The dollar you think you hold is actually a dollar of credit from the Federal Reserve banking system, which is the only medium of exchange because that is enforced by law. IF you try to use precious metals as a medium of exchange or store of value, the feds might raid you, confiscate all your property and throw you in jail as the did the promoters of the ‘Liberty Dollar.’ en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar

The government protects its monopoly on currency production in order to control the economy and they do not tolerate interlopers of any kind.

In economics, value is always subjective, so things are worth whatever it is people are willing to pay for them. Money’s value comes from several uses, each of which has value to the user otherwise it won’t be used. For example, while one can debate the extent to which the government can compel its use as a medium of exchange, the one thing that the government cannot compel it its use as a store of value. People hold bank deposits because they hold their value for the most part. Silver and gold do not necessarily hold their value, the value of metals goes up and down as subjective valuations change. Now currency is not guaranteed to hold its value, but the historical record has been much better than for gold and silver.

Rather than simply give you a link to an article that asserts that this is what we pay, let’s walk through the numbers.

First, the percentage of average income paid in direct taxes to government at all levels is 32%.
uwgb.edu/DutchS/PSEUDOSC/FairTax.HTM
Taxes at all levels of government as percentage of average adjusted individual income is: Proportion of Adjusted Gross Income: 32.7%

But they calculate Adjusted Gross Income to include a number of things most of us don’t have.
•Personal Income 2003: (Table 657)◦Total $9,169.1 billion
◦Wages $5,111.1 billion
◦Fringe Benefits $1,210 billion
◦Proprietor Income 941.9 $billion
◦Asset Income (interest, dividends, etc.) $1,338.7 billion
◦Government social benefits to persons $1,313.5 billion

I think it safe to say that most of us do not have proprietor income, only a few of us have Asset Income, and most do not draw government social benefits during most of our lives.

So the 32% is really closer to 50% for most of us.

Then there is also sales taxes, fuel taxes, user fees etc that are not included in the above income tax calculations, but are nonetheless a tax we all pay.

Then there is the employer taxes and mandatory costs imposed by government that are part of the total employee costs that they are willing to spend. When your employer pays 8% to social security, that is money YOU would have earned as part of the total employee compensation that you never see, but you still got ‘taxed’ in the form of lost compensation. I wont even go into the lost income from interest you could have earned on your withheld taxes.

But aside from that, the INDIRECT taxes add another 20% in the cost of what we consume in services and goods we purchase. Those things we buy are taxed at the other end of the business deal, but their COSTS GET PASSED ON TO US as consumers in the final price we pay. The cost of the bread we eat in the store is not supposed to be taxed but it is, as the producer had to ship that bread to market and paid energy taxes and corporate taxes that are built into the price of the bread.
investopedia.com/financial-edge/0111/the-unseen-taxes-that-you-pay-every-day.aspx

All these taxes and government costs are passed along to the consumer in the final price of that loaf of bread.

But most of us do not see the money we pay in taxes when we buy goods. We don’t see the fuel tax, corporate tax, the store’s taxes, etc. And so we don’t see the pain. All we know is that our money doesn’t stretch nearly so far as before.

And just wait till Congress finally passes a Value Added Tax! Then the fun really starts.

There are a lot of problems with your math here. First of all, adjusted gross income is a horrible measure of income. It is an artificial construct based on what the IRS counts as income. For example, I could earn $10k in dividends in my 401k, but the IRS does not count that as income until I withdraw the money.

If we use current BEA data, we have about $14. trillion in personal income. We have to include all income, because those with proprietors income and dividend income tend to pay a larger share of the tax bill. The government takes in about $3.5 trillion in taxes, which puts the total tax bite at under 25%. And that includes all taxes, income taxes, excise taxes, etc.

 

[RGCheek]

In economics, value is always subjective, so things are worth whatever it is people are willing to pay for them.

Which is simply ridiculous. If I talk a moron into buying a **** painting for a million dollars, that doesn’t make all the other **** paintings worth a million dollars. The efficiency of the market as a whole can establish a ‘value’ for trading purposes but that is different than the actual value of the item. Nothing changed about petroleum that was worth over $100 a barrel a couple of years ago that it is now only worth about half that now. The availability changed that is all.

If some conmen started a run on tulips so that people were paying several average annual incomes for the tulips, that doesn’t make them actually worth three average annual incomes. It just means that people are sometimes idiots.

Money’s value comes from several uses, each of which has value to the user otherwise it won’t be used. For example, while one can debate the extent to which the government can compel its use as a medium of exchange, the one thing that the government cannot compel it its use as a store of value. People hold bank deposits because they hold their value for the most part. Silver and gold do not necessarily hold their value, the value of metals goes up and down as subjective valuations change. Now currency is not guaranteed to hold its value, but the historical record has been much better than for gold and silver.

Silver and gold, and most commodities ALWAYS have some value, and though their value may drop yoy, it never goes to zero like fiat currency can and has.

There are a lot of problems with your math here. First of all, adjusted gross income is a horrible measure of income. It is an artificial construct based on what the IRS counts as income. For example, I could earn $10k in dividends in my 401k, but the IRS does not count that as income until I withdraw the money.

Until your investments pay you a dividend or you cash out, it isn’t real, but only potential money you could have if you sold it. The value of all the household items I have are worth a lot more money than I have in the bank, but it wont buy me a burger at McDonalds unless I sell it, and even then, McDonalds wont take my couch in exchange for a burger anyway.

Converting wealth from one form into another is not merely an abstract endeavor, but the form of the wealth determines much of the practical value that the item has or could have.

If we use current BEA data, we have about $14. trillion in personal income. We have to include all income, because those with proprietors income and dividend income tend to pay a larger share of the tax bill. The government takes in about $3.5 trillion in taxes, which puts the total tax bite at under 25%. And that includes all taxes, income taxes, excise taxes, etc.

Yeah, and according to the statistics I must have 2.4 children because that is the average.

lol, no, I am speaking of what the typical real person pays in total government taxes at all levels and I am not the only person to have come to this realization. We lose well over half of our total spendable income to taxes of all kinds and fees. And it wasn’t always that way; as recently as 1950 only the top 5% paid any federal income tax and it was around 2% of total income.

We are paying all this for no better reason than that we are fools. We have let the corporations shift the tax burden from them to us working cattle, and there is no reason for that to be the case other than that we have failed to protect our own individual interests.

It’s simple as that, ignore it if you prefer, but dems da fax, jack.

 

[stinkcat_14]

Which is simply ridiculous. If I talk a moron into buying a **** painting for a million dollars, that doesn’t make all the other **** paintings worth a million dollars. The efficiency of the market as a whole can establish a ‘value’ for trading purposes but that is different than the actual value of the item. Nothing changed about petroleum that was worth over $100 a barrel a couple of years ago that it is now only worth about half that now. The availability changed that is all.

If some conmen started a run on tulips so that people were paying several average annual incomes for the tulips, that doesn’t make them actually worth three average annual incomes. It just means that people are sometimes idiots.

Price is determined by the intersection of supply and demand. In the overwhelming majority of cases it works very nicely. Occasionally things can get overblown, but those are rare occasions. If the arms length interactions of buyers and sellers don’t determine value, what does?

Silver and gold, and most commodities ALWAYS have some value, and though their value may drop yoy, it never goes to zero like fiat currency can and has.

There is nothing that could prevent gold and silver from going to zero. It is probably not likely, but neither is it likely that the value of the dollar will go to zero either.

Until your investments pay you a dividend or you cash out, it isn’t real, but only potential money you could have if you sold it. The value of all the household items I have are worth a lot more money than I have in the bank, but it wont buy me a burger at McDonalds unless I sell it, and even then, McDonalds wont take my couch in exchange for a burger anyway.

Wealth is more than money, it is the value of all your assets.

Converting wealth from one form into another is not merely an abstract endeavor, but the form of the wealth determines much of the practical value that the item has or could have.

Yeah, and according to the statistics I must have 2.4 children because that is the average.

I am not sure what your point is. You want to make a claim but you want to discount the data that you used to make your claim. The data I used came from exactly the same source as the data in your link.

lol, no, I am speaking of what the typical real person pays in total government taxes at all levels and I am not the only person to have come to this realization. We lose well over half of our total spendable income to taxes of all kinds and fees. And it wasn’t always that way; as recently as 1950 only the top 5% paid any federal income tax and it was around 2% of total income.

Ok, let’s see the data. If your claim is true, it should be pretty easy for you to provide the data.

We are paying all this for no better reason than that we are fools. We have let the corporations shift the tax burden from them to us working cattle, and there is no reason for that to be the case other than that we have failed to protect our own individual interests.

It’s simple as that, ignore it if you prefer, but dems da fax, jack.

You actually have presented no facts.

 

[RGCheek]

Price is determined by the intersection of supply and demand. In the overwhelming majority of cases it works very nicely. Occasionally things can get overblown, but those are rare occasions. If the arms length interactions of buyers and sellers don’t determine value, what does?

The record for value of the object should play a part, and the record of value of similar items.

There is nothing that could prevent gold and silver from going to zero. It is probably not likely, but neither is it likely that the value of the dollar will go to zero either.

No, gold h as never been worth zero, and if it could go to zero it would have at some time in the past. Prove your claim by showing a time and place in the modern era when gold was worth zero.

Wealth is more than money, it is the value of all your assets.

No, it is far than only that.

I am not sure what your point is. You want to make a claim but you want to discount the data that you used to make your claim. The data I used came from exactly the same source as the data in your link.

IT is the way you used the data, to ignore the simple fact that for the vast majority of us there is no such thing as proprietor income, Social security takes a bigger bite of our income, etc. You are taking the averages and I am saying that for the majority of us the averages don’t tell an accurate story.

Ok, let’s see the data. If your claim is true, it should be pretty easy for you to provide the data.

I did.

You actually have presented no facts.

I did. You just said that you used them yourself, lol.

 

[stinkcat_14]

The record for value of the object should play a part, and the record of value of similar items.

Actually no. Because preferences change, substitutes change, alternatives change. Just because leisure suits and bell bottoms once commanded a good price does not mean they will always be valuable.

No, gold h as never been worth zero, and if it could go to zero it would have at some time in the past. Prove your claim by showing a time and place in the modern era when gold was worth zero.

Just because something could happen doesn’t mean it must happen. The value of gold depends on the subjective preferences of buyers and sellers. Those subjective preferences could change to make it worth zero. There is no intrinsic value that guarantees a positive value.

No, it is far than only that.

No argument here.

IT is the way you used the data, to ignore the simple fact that for the vast majority of us there is no such thing as proprietor income, Social security takes a bigger bite of our income, etc. You are taking the averages and I am saying that for the majority of us the averages don’t tell an accurate story.

I am not using average data but aggregate data. You cannot use aggregate data for tax payments, which includes the higher tax rates paid by people with proprietors income and dividend income, etc, and then divide that by a subset of total income.

I did.

I did. You just said that you used them yourself, lol.

I just used the data more correctly than you did.

 

[petra22]

If we use current BEA data, we have about $14. trillion in personal income. We have to include all income, because those with proprietors income and dividend income tend to pay a larger share of the tax bill. The government takes in about $3.5 trillion in taxes, which puts the total tax bite at under 25%. And that includes all taxes, income taxes, excise taxes, etc.

Does that also include state, county, city, local taxes and taxes on utilities??? It all adds up, and it FEELS well over 25%!

 

[RGCheek]

Actually no. Because preferences change, substitutes change, alternatives change. Just because leisure suits and bell bottoms once commanded a good price does not mean they will always be valuable.

That is not the correct way to use historical data if you want good results. Historically you look for the median price over the last thirty years or so depending on how much it has been traded. For example, gold’s value right now is too high, I think and was overbought due to perceived issues with the Federal Reserves QE programs. Its median value over the last thirty years in 2010 dollars is around $1100, so I consider gold still overbought right now. When it moves down again, it will go further down than $1100, say to an $80-0 to $900 range and then retrace back up to about $1100.

It is a useful tool, but that is all it is. History is not a certain indicator of future performance.

Just because something could happen doesn’t mean it must happen. The value of gold depends on the subjective preferences of buyers and sellers. Those subjective preferences could change to make it worth zero. There is no intrinsic value that guarantees a positive value.

That is where you are wrong. There is in fact an intrinsic value to gold due to its usefulness. You can make an attractive ring out of gold and/or silver, you cant do that with abstract credit. You can make a shade, an electrical connector with top performance, and countless other things with gold and silver and so they will ALWAYS have some value above ZERO.

I am not using average data but aggregate data. You cannot use aggregate data for tax payments, which includes the higher tax rates paid by people with proprietors income and dividend income, etc, and then divide that by a subset of total income.

You misuse the data to say that because the top 1% have these sources of income that they MUST be referenced in when looking at the median incomes, and that is simply not true. Median proprietary income is $0 for the lower 80%.

I just used the data more correctly than you did.

No, you obfuscated what should be obvious, or tried to.

I think you failed.

 

[stinkcat_14]

That is not the correct way to use historical data if you want good results. Historically you look for the median price over the last thirty years or so depending on how much it has been traded. For example, gold’s value right now is too high, I think and was overbought due to perceived issues with the Federal Reserves QE programs. Its median value over the last thirty years in 2010 dollars is around $1100, so I consider gold still overbought right now. When it moves down again, it will go further down than $1100, say to an $80-0 to $900 range and then retrace back up to about $1100.

I am not making a prediction, I am just laying out what is possible. It is always possible that gold will be worth zero because its value is based on people’s subjective preferences. As subjective valuations change, prices change.

It is a useful tool, but that is all it is. History is not a certain indicator of future performance.

That is where you are wrong. There is in fact an intrinsic value to gold due to its usefulness. You can make an attractive ring out of gold and/or silver, you cant do that with abstract credit. You can make a shade, an electrical connector with top performance, and countless other things with gold and silver and so they will ALWAYS have some value above ZERO.

If preferences change and subjective valuations change, then it is possible that gold could be worth zero.

You misuse the data to say that because the top 1% have these sources of income that they MUST be referenced in when looking at the median incomes, and that is simply not true. Median proprietary income is $0 for the lower 80%.

The problem is, we are not using median data, we are using aggregate data. If you want to present data on median income and median tax payments, be my guest and we will discuss that.

No, you obfuscated what should be obvious, or tried to.

I think you failed.

You are the one who is obfuscating.

 

[RGCheek]

I am not making a prediction, I am just laying out what is possible. It is always possible that gold will be worth zero because its value is based on people’s subjective preferences. As subjective valuations change, prices change.

If preferences change and subjective valuations change, then it is possible that gold could be worth zero.

MAYBE hypothetically but in the REAL WORLD this will never happen if there is any utility for a commodity. And since gold has so many uses it will NEVER be valued at $0 unless proscribed by law or some other bizarre human intervention and then the black market will still give it a value.

The problem is, we are not using median data, we are using aggregate data. If you want to present data on median income and median tax payments, be my guest and we will discuss that.

I am using both. Do try to keep up, lol.

 

[stinkcat_14]

MAYBE hypothetically but in the REAL WORLD this will never happen if there is any utility for a commodity. And since gold has so many uses it will NEVER be valued at $0 unless proscribed by law or some other bizarre human intervention and then the black market will still give it a value.

I am using both. Do try to keep up, lol.

Where is your data on median tax payments?

 

[RGCheek]

Where is your data on median tax payments?

I gave you the median value of gold over the last 30 years in 2010 dollars.

Do you even read what I post in response?

 

[stinkcat_14]

I gave you the median value of gold over the last 30 years in 2010 dollars.

Do you even read what I post in response?

The issue at hand was your claim that we pay 50% of our income in taxes. You were making a claim about the median taxpayer without citing median data. So once again, where is your evidence that we pay 50% of our income in taxes?