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Kovaska
Guest
Islamic teachings say that Abraham built the Kaaba with his son. Does the Kaaba actually have anything to do with Abraham or was that just another thing Muhammad made up?
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ltwin
Guest
Before Muhammad took over Mecca, the Kaaba was a polytheistic shrine. It could have been dedicated to a “high god”. I doubt we could prove whether Abraham had any connection to it. That would have to be a matter of faith.
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Salibi
Guest
The Kaaba was a place of pilgrimage and worship for polytheistic Arabs. History has it that it contained the idols of 360 gods, representing the days of the year. When Islam took root the shrine was rededicated and the idols removed, however, Islam eventually re-adopted many religious practices of ancient Arabs, including the act of circumnavigating the Kaaba.
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mhmtas63
Guest
It is not actually known who first built Kaaba but Kaaba could had been built by Adam. Abraham and his son Ishmael rebuilt (peace be upon them).
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mhmtas63
Guest
Made up!!! I think that is some other’s job who knows made up very well. Qur’an is directly words(revelation) of God. Some follows made up doctrines!!!
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CarmeliteKnight
Guest
Oh man, how do I say this nicely without getting banned… I’m sorry but the Quran is not divine revelation.
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mhmtas63
Guest
That is your thought I respect. You have not to belive but also you do not insult that is good. I advise you to search Qur’an deeply. You will se that Qur’an just can be the words of creator of everything.
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mhmtas63
Guest
quote from Kovaska(10) : "that just another thing Muhammad made up?
Is that not an insult?
3- Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination
4- It is not but a revelation revealed An-Najm(53)
Qur’an contains some same issues and topics with previous scriptures. Qur’an resuming subjects of previous revelations does not point that Muhammad had taken from them but shows that God revealed. Because Muhammad could not read or write and had never educated by any one. After first revelation Muhammad was taken to a monk to learn about revelation from God. That monk approved that were a new revelation.
If you notice Qur’an you will see that Qur’an is direct speech from God to people. In Qur’an Muhammad (or original writer or source of speech) ) do not say God sait that … But instead God Himself speaks as God of people and creator of everything and owner of all states and universe and judgement day and … If it were quotations from previous scriptures it would not be by that way. And if Muhammad had writen such thing by Himself again it would not be by this way. We can understand the difference. How much a human could be clever but nobody could do such thing.
Qur’an summarize the previous scriptures and that point that the speaker in Qur’an knows everything detailed.
Qur’an contains all sciences just like history, geography, psychology, astronomy, economy, sociology etc. A human could not know all those.
People around Muhammad were witness of revelation so they believed and were tortured and expeled from their country but they never quitclaim. They saw the facts from Muhammad so they could die for Him.
There are many things to say…
So if someone say Muhammad “made up” but that make Muslims angry. And if we believe Qur’an is direct words of God so how could we critique?
For doctrines I used “made up” . Perhaps it is not true to say such thing but doctrines are not revelation from God because people establihed such dogmas through strained interpretations from Bible. Writers of Gospels wrote what they saw and hear from Jesus. That is not direct revelation. And there are many interpretations in both passages of OT and NT. So Muslims say they were corrupted. Muslims do not rejects previous scriptures but people added many interpretation in text of revelation. As revelation Qur’an and previous scriptures are equal but Qur’an is high to be pure revelation.
Is that not an insult?
3- Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination
4- It is not but a revelation revealed An-Najm(53)
Qur’an contains some same issues and topics with previous scriptures. Qur’an resuming subjects of previous revelations does not point that Muhammad had taken from them but shows that God revealed. Because Muhammad could not read or write and had never educated by any one. After first revelation Muhammad was taken to a monk to learn about revelation from God. That monk approved that were a new revelation.
If you notice Qur’an you will see that Qur’an is direct speech from God to people. In Qur’an Muhammad (or original writer or source of speech) ) do not say God sait that … But instead God Himself speaks as God of people and creator of everything and owner of all states and universe and judgement day and … If it were quotations from previous scriptures it would not be by that way. And if Muhammad had writen such thing by Himself again it would not be by this way. We can understand the difference. How much a human could be clever but nobody could do such thing.
Qur’an summarize the previous scriptures and that point that the speaker in Qur’an knows everything detailed.
Qur’an contains all sciences just like history, geography, psychology, astronomy, economy, sociology etc. A human could not know all those.
People around Muhammad were witness of revelation so they believed and were tortured and expeled from their country but they never quitclaim. They saw the facts from Muhammad so they could die for Him.
There are many things to say…
So if someone say Muhammad “made up” but that make Muslims angry. And if we believe Qur’an is direct words of God so how could we critique?
For doctrines I used “made up” . Perhaps it is not true to say such thing but doctrines are not revelation from God because people establihed such dogmas through strained interpretations from Bible. Writers of Gospels wrote what they saw and hear from Jesus. That is not direct revelation. And there are many interpretations in both passages of OT and NT. So Muslims say they were corrupted. Muslims do not rejects previous scriptures but people added many interpretation in text of revelation. As revelation Qur’an and previous scriptures are equal but Qur’an is high to be pure revelation.
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preacher_of_christ
Guest
I dont think anyone knows. From a pressuposition that Islam is not true there is not much evidence for Abraham bulding it and it would probably be concidered a pagan construction, however I dont think that this could be an argument against Islam since its more of a conclusion based that assumes that the Quran is not necesserily true and its an uncertain conclusion based on what probably happened since no strong evidence points to anything in particular.
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jrgmercado
Guest
Let’s not forgot that many churches, were built on former sacred locations.
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ProdglArchitect
Guest
This is your opinion as a member of Mohammad’s faith, and you are welcome to it.Kovaska:
Made up!!! I think that is some other’s job who knows made up very well. Qur’an is directly words(revelation) of God. Some follows made up doctrines!!!
To Catholics, it is a book filled with blasphemies and untruths. Whatever beauty and Truth is found in it is there in spite of Mohammad, not because of him.
As to this claim, I doubt Abraham had anything to do with it, given the site’s history. Still, it is not entirely impossible, so it is not something we can say definitively. As said by others, it is a matter of faith. You believe that it was by Abraham because Mohammad supposedly said so. That same endorsement is strong evidence to me that it was not build by Abraham.
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Pattylt
Guest
Sorry, I don’t buy that. Muhammad was the son of a wealthy businessman and his father would have most assuredly made sure he was educated. It was quite popular to have religious leaders appear uneducated to enhance the claim of divine revelation. Gee, how could this poor uneducated man know these things! Umm, because he wasn’t uneducated.
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Kovaska
Guest
I respect what Muslims believe about it as everyone should respect all religions. However, I do not take back my statement of Muhammad making stuff up. Catholic and all Christian doctrine teaches that the Qur’an is an invalid book that directly contradicts the bible (Old Testament and New Testament) as it denies the resurrection which was the entire point of Jesus coming to Earth.
Also the Qur’an and the teachings of the Muslim religion were created and started in Arabia, a polytheistic region with barely any Christians or Jews. Christianity built off Judaism from a Jew (Jesus) from the city of (Jewish City) Nazareth and Christianity accepts the Jewish teachings along with the Christian ones.
Islam built off Muhammad, a polytheist in Arabia who turned into a monotheist. Islam has a morphed combination of Judaic teachings (Ishmael instead of Issac) and Christian teachings (Believe that Jesus is alive, but Muslims believe Jesus never died)
It’s easy for all Muslims to say that the Qur’an is accurate because all they need to do is just say to themselves “It’s the Direct words of God” and that’s the only argument they need to convince themselves. The bible and it’s scriptures were written by the followers of Jesus with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and it is extremely more accurate than the Qur’an because it was peer reviewed and if there was anything inaccurate, it would be removed by other followers. Of course Muhammad is going to make it easy and just say the Qur’an is the direct word of God so no argument will ever convince a Muslim.
I think that “Allah” would have revealed himself to at least someone peaceful. Medina and Mecca went to war and Muhammad encouraged and led that. Jesus was against Israel going to war with the Roman empire and taught that only through love and mercy will people see the true God. What do you expect to happen when some guy from Arabia that nobody has heard of storms into towns with weapons telling Christians and Jews that the Qur’an is the new teaching.
Christianity first spread through the world by peaceful means over the span of hundreds of years. Islam first spread through the world through war and then heavy taxation on non-muslims so they’d convert. The real God is with the religion that was first spread by thousands of followers being killed because they chose peace and mercy, not the religion that first spread through violence and hostile takeover.
Also the Qur’an and the teachings of the Muslim religion were created and started in Arabia, a polytheistic region with barely any Christians or Jews. Christianity built off Judaism from a Jew (Jesus) from the city of (Jewish City) Nazareth and Christianity accepts the Jewish teachings along with the Christian ones.
Islam built off Muhammad, a polytheist in Arabia who turned into a monotheist. Islam has a morphed combination of Judaic teachings (Ishmael instead of Issac) and Christian teachings (Believe that Jesus is alive, but Muslims believe Jesus never died)
It’s easy for all Muslims to say that the Qur’an is accurate because all they need to do is just say to themselves “It’s the Direct words of God” and that’s the only argument they need to convince themselves. The bible and it’s scriptures were written by the followers of Jesus with the guidance of the Holy Spirit and it is extremely more accurate than the Qur’an because it was peer reviewed and if there was anything inaccurate, it would be removed by other followers. Of course Muhammad is going to make it easy and just say the Qur’an is the direct word of God so no argument will ever convince a Muslim.
I think that “Allah” would have revealed himself to at least someone peaceful. Medina and Mecca went to war and Muhammad encouraged and led that. Jesus was against Israel going to war with the Roman empire and taught that only through love and mercy will people see the true God. What do you expect to happen when some guy from Arabia that nobody has heard of storms into towns with weapons telling Christians and Jews that the Qur’an is the new teaching.
Christianity first spread through the world by peaceful means over the span of hundreds of years. Islam first spread through the world through war and then heavy taxation on non-muslims so they’d convert. The real God is with the religion that was first spread by thousands of followers being killed because they chose peace and mercy, not the religion that first spread through violence and hostile takeover.
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Salibi
Guest
Just for the history, there were many Christian and Jewish Arab tribes. The Kaaba even contained an icon of the Virgin and Child. Remember, the Kaaba was a place of worship for all Arabs.
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niceatheist
Guest
Well, first of all, I think it’s questionable that Abraham ever existed. But if he did exist, and did initially live in Ur (that is, in modern southern Iraq), and made his way to the Levant, where he apparently settled, I find it somewhat improbable that he then picked up stakes and headed into the Arabian peninsula for the purpose of building a religious shrine.
What we do know is that it existed before Mohammed, and was almost certainly a center of Arab paganism.
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niceatheist
Guest
Most of the experts I’ve read are very hesitant to directly link the Qu’ran to earlier Miaphysite writings. I think it is reasonable to suggest that there was a Syriac influence, but the idea put forward that Islam is a direct descendant of some strain of Oriental Christian miaphysitism is risky. The strongest suggestion that there was a link between Syriac Christianity and Islam is the number of times Mary shows up in the Qu’ran, suggesting some variant of the Mary cult was transferred into Islam. But still, there’s not a lot of direct textual evidence linking the Qu’ran to Syriac writings, which is the primary claim of Islam being sort of extremist Miaphysite text.
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twf
Guest
Hasn’t it been suggested that some of the practices, such as the daily prostrations and set prayers, were inspired by Syriac Christianity?
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niceatheist
Guest
That has been suggested, which is why I think there’s probably some links, but generally the theories being put forward are more than simply Syriac influences, but rather that the Qu’ran or elements of it are in fact built directly on top of Syriac writings. I think most scholars take a much more cautious view.
One of the chief problems clouding this is the common notion among many Muslim scholars that the Qu’ran was delivered as a concrete whole, that Mohammed received the final work in fell swoop. The textual evidence and early variants suggest the Qu’ran, like the Bible, was the product of editorial compilation. But that view is about as popular in Muslim circles as textual analysis of the Gospels is in most Christian circles, because it challenges the notion of direct divine inspiration.
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Salibi
Guest
Islam adopted many practices and aspects of Syriac Christianity, including prostrations, qiblas, ( the niche in the walls of churches indicating the direction of Jerusalem became a niche indicating the direction of Mecca in Islam), and the slender design of church towers, to name a few.
Islam also adopted the pagan Arab practice of circumambulating the Kaaba, performing an annual pilgrimage to the Kaaba, and the entire “Kaaba is holy” notion altogether.
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twf
Guest
Textual analysis of the Gospels is pretty widely accepted in mainline Protestant and Catholic circles… at least to some extent. Certainly more so than textual criticism of the Quran in Islam.
Unlike fundamentalist Protestants, with the Bible, or most Muslims with the Quran, we accept that God worked through human authors and editors to arrive at what we now call “the Bible”.
Unlike fundamentalist Protestants, with the Bible, or most Muslims with the Quran, we accept that God worked through human authors and editors to arrive at what we now call “the Bible”.
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