Who Actually Built The Kaaba?

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twf said:
Textual analysis of the Gospels is pretty widely accepted in mainline Protestant and Catholic circles… at least to some extent. Certainly more so than textual criticism of the Quran in Islam.
Unlike fundamentalist Protestants, with the Bible, or most Muslims with the Quran, we accept that God worked through human authors and editors to arrive at what we now call “the Bible”.
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The problem for Islam is that for Mohammed to hold the position he does as the latest and most important Prophet, and for the Qu’ran to hold its pre-eminent position, the notion that it was in fact compiled and edited is problematic. But as much as we know of its early history, it was compiled from some written materials and possibly from the memories of the first followers of Mohammed, so it may have come into existence in a similar timeline as much of the New Testament.
 
Pattylt said:
Sorry, I don’t buy that. Muhammad was the son of a wealthy businessman and his father would have most assuredly made sure he was educated. It was quite popular to have religious leaders appear uneducated to enhance the claim of divine revelation. Gee, how could this poor uneducated man know these things! Umm, because he wasn’t uneducated.
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Muhammad’s Father was dead before Muhammad were born! And Father was not wealthy.

Muhammad had not taken any religious knowledge from any one. If that had been by that way so nobody would believe that Muhammad take a new revelation.
 
mhmtas63 said:
It is not actually known who first built Kaaba but Kaaba could had been built by Adam. Abraham and his son Ishmael rebuilt
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Abraham couldn’t have rebuilt a Kaaba (allegedly) built be Adam, since even “if” Adam built one, it would have been destroyed in the Flood. The fact none of the Biblical OT writers (nor any of the NT writers) mention anything remotely sounding like a Kaaba, it is highly improbably either Adam or Abraham built one. The only source of a Kaaba being built is from Islam.
 
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And more tha all that, the Qu’ran does not have the intention to perpetuate Catholic faith.
 
Correct…his grandfather and after his death, his uncle…the grandfather was a respected elder with a profitable business. The rest of my comment stands. His grandfather educated him. He wasn’t uneducated.
 
That doesn’t surprise me. Most cultures have ways that they practice worship and even when their religions change, the way they worship in their new faith will continue the ways they worshipped in the old. This is as true for Christianity continuing to follow Jewish styles of worship and, as Christianity spread, incorporating worship styles of the Pagans they converted. The Christians were brilliant at changing the meanings of pagan worship into Christian meanings. People aren’t comfortable changing their style of worship…whether it’s kneeling, prostration, circumambulating, etc!
 
Pattylt said:
Correct…his grandfather and after his death, his uncle…the grandfather was a respected elder with a profitable business. The rest of my comment stands. His grandfather educated him. He wasn’t uneducated.
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Grandfather did not believe in Muhammad so I wonder how how grandfather educated grandson about what did not know and believe!
 
There was nobody to educate Muhammad. Non of Arab could bring something like Qur’an. So who could educate Mahammad?
 
Back in 1995 I heard from a liberal Imam that he personally believed Muhammad was literate, but he begged us in the class I was checking out NOT to advertise his opinion because it would cause him big problems at his mosque.

I thiink that even if Muhammad was iliterate the Koran’s omposition, in 22 years was well within the capacity of an undeniably very intelligent man, especially of a merchant who travelled and talked to other people, especially the Jews and Christians who already were in Arabia in the 7th century. Muhammad’s cousin in law Waquira was a Nestorian priest, which certainly accounts for the Koran’s straw man depiction of the Trinity, with the Blessed Virgin Mary said to be one of the Persons of the Godhead. All the retelling and reconstruction of the OT stories has all the thumbprints of oral story telling borrowing and massive adaptation to make the Arabians the true chosen people of God and Muhammad as the one Prophet, compared to all the others, who gets the message ( pure Islam ) right AND makes it stick.
 
The answer is in that sentence. Muhammad had never been taught about previous books. It is impossible for Muhammad to compose from other books because He knew nothing. He was taught by Holy Spirit(angel Gabriel).
 
16:1Now Sarai Abram’s wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar.
16:2And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai.
16:3And Sarai Abram’s wife took Hagar her maid the Egyptian, after Abram had dwelt ten years in the land of Canaan, and gave her to her husband Abram to be his wife.
16:4And he went in unto Hagar, and she conceived: and when she saw that she had conceived, her mistress was despised in her eyes.
16:5And Sarai said unto Abram, My wrong be upon thee: I have given my maid into thy bosom; and when she saw that she had conceived, I was despised in her eyes: the LORD judge between me and thee.
16:6But Abram said unto Sarai, Behold, thy maid is in thy hand; do to her as it pleaseth thee. And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled from her face.
16:7And the angel of the LORD found her by a fountain of water in the wilderness, by the fountain in the way to Shur.
16:8And he said, Hagar, Sarai’s maid, whence camest thou? and whither wilt thou go? And she said, I flee from the face of my mistress Sarai.
16:9And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Return to thy mistress, and submit thyself under her hands.
16:10And the angel of the LORD said unto her, I will multiply thy seed exceedingly, that it shall not be numbered for multitude.
16:11And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction.
16:12And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
16:13And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?
16:14Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered.
16:15And Hagar bare Abram a son: and Abram called his son’s name, which Hagar bare, Ishmael.
16:16And Abram was fourscore and six years old, when Hagar bare Ishmael to Abram.
Abraham took Hagar to Mecca.
 
“the Koran is the standard of revelation literature because the Koran says it is the standard of revelation literature.”

That is a circular reasoning fallacy. Why does the Uncreated Creator have to stoop to such an error?
 
mhmtas63 said:
The answer is in that sentence. Muhammad had never been taught about previous books. It is impossible for Muhammad to compose from other books because He knew nothing. He was taught by Holy Spirit(angel Gabriel).
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You have literally no evidence of that other than tradition. Given his position in the world, the argument that he was uneducated really doesn’t hold much water, especially when we see the liberal use of heretical Christian ideals in his supposedly “god-revealed” theology. It is clear that Mohammad was deeply influenced by certain Christian sects, meaning that he was educated by those monks and taught their views.
 
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I don’t see it as realistic that the New Testament writings were a product of editorial compilation. They do appear to contain some additions and occasionally include explanatory commentary but their early and complete emergence suggests they were singular and original works that were copied and disseminated. Further, we can contextualize a lot of the formal character of OT works to contemporary analagous themes, beliefs and treatises, thus establishing their antiquity (so in the case of the Pentateuch the writings are by and large certainly before the Greek Dark Ages and analagous to themes and styles of ancient Sumerian religious texts and legal codes, as well as resemblances to formal Hittite treaties (e.g. with the ancient Egyptians)). Such writings make a lot of sense before that period but little or no sense afterward (so Genesis 1 - 10 has similar themes in ancient Sumerian culture but after the Greek Dark Ages these themes seem to disappear entirely from concern and remembrance, possibly because they lost all practical and especially any political relevance or significance).
 
It would be nice to have a record of what ancient, pre-Islamic Arabians believed about the Kaaba. But seeing as Islam didn’t utterly obliterate customs around the Kaaba, I think we can safely infer that the ancient Arabians did believe ancient patriarchs of their race were responsible for its construction and institution. There are some pretty interesting ancient Arabian kingdoms that we have some knowledge about that might help us get some idea of the source, origins or context of the Kaaba as it was originally dedicated or built. But it’s all going to have to be speculative unless we get some new archeological or historical documents related to the ancient use of the Kabaa to go from.
 
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