Who are the deserving poor?

[emily47017]

They do such a wonderful job that our childhood obesity rates are plummeting–NOT.

hee! i’m put in mind of the lunches i ate in high school… cheeseburgers and curly fries every single day… and cookies three for a dollar! dear lord, thank you for letting me survive school lunch.

never heard such a load of hard right rhetoric.

thank you for voicing my thoughts… by starting this thread on a catholic forum, i was sorta expecting a catholic response. instead it’s turned into a cascade of neo-con talking points. who knew?

 

[vern_humphrey]

You are partly right. I do own a computer.

On the rest, you are way off. I want all children to be well educated and healthy so they can be productive and pay for their own children. I don’t want a lot of low paid workers, I want a lot of workers who can demand high wages because they have skills that are worth high wages. Many of them will create products no one else has yet thought of, and we will all live better because of that.

We might also teach them the rules of debate and logic, so they can contribute to discussions like this, and not be limited to insulting and railing at those with whom they disagree.

 

[jabelltulsa]

Congratulaions on your upcoming wedding. It looks like you are still the old fashioned kind who gets married before the kids are old enough to be witnesses.

I LOL’d on that last statement

and thank you!

 

[Trader]

hee! i’m put in mind of the lunches i ate in high school… cheeseburgers and curly fries every single day… and cookies three for a dollar! dear lord, thank you for letting me survive school lunch.

I have already dated myself somewhere in these forums, so no further harm will be done. We were so poor that I always brought my lunch from home. The only thing I ever bought from our cafeteria was a half pint carton of milk for 3 cents. The one day in four years that I forgot my lunch they served fried eggplant. I never forgot my lunch again.

My parents scraped together enough money to pay tuition, but I had to pay my own bus fare because we lived 12 miles from high school. $110 was a lot of money for a 14 year old in 1963, but it turned out to be a pretty good investment. I might not have won a full academic scholarship to college in a public school.

 

[cynic]

. I don’t want a lot of low paid workers, I want a lot of workers who can demand high wages because they have skills that are worth high wages. Many of them will create products no one else has yet thought of, and we will all live better because of that.

And given this ‘ideal’ who will make those products? Right, labour in South East asian countries working for 2 cents an hour. We can’t all be accountants, engineers, lawyers, doctors or own a business. An economy wouldn’t function if everyone were accountants, engineers, lawyers, doctors or self-employed.

 

[vern_humphrey]

And given this ‘ideal’ who will make those products? Right, labour in South East asian countries working for 2 cents an hour. We can’t all be accountants, engineers, lawyers, doctors or own a business. An economy wouldn’t function if everyone were accountants, engineers, lawyers, doctors or self-employed.

Ah, yes, the old “some people were born to be exploited” argument, butressed by the “it’s better for the rest of us” theory.

 

[Trader]

And given this ‘ideal’ who will make those products? Right, labour in South East asian countries working for 2 cents an hour. We can’t all be accountants, engineers, lawyers, doctors or own a business. An economy wouldn’t function if everyone were accountants, engineers, lawyers, doctors or self-employed.

I guess I am more optimistic than you are. 100 years ago one third of American workers were farmers. Today one percent of Americans are farmers. By your logic we all starved to death in 1979.

If the electronic telephone switch had not been invented today’s volume of telephone calls would require 25% of the work force to be telephone operators. I read that one before the invention of the internet, so the actual percentage would be a lot higher today.

We still manufacture a lot of “stuff” in America. It just requires fewer workers per unit of output. Flexible manufacturing, just in time delivery, and computer controlled manufacturing equipment require better educated employees to make it all work.

There are lots of skilled service jobs like nursing and teaching, truck drivers, and mechanics for the forseeable future.

 

[cynic]

Ah, yes, the old “some people were born to be exploited” argument, butressed by the “it’s better for the rest of us” theory.

do yo have any reply, any counter argument? The old ‘me against the world’ and ‘others are my enemy’ theories.

 

[Man]

Ah, yes, the old “some people were born to be exploited” argument, butressed by the “it’s better for the rest of us” theory.

The American way of life is changing, and it would help if more people understood that. We aren’t going to continue to be able to expect several times the wages as people in other countries. We can’t continue to expect that everyone will be gainfully employed. The world is racked with unemployment, and we have to fight to keep jobs in the United States.

Remember, in other countries land, housing, and rent are a lot cheaper. This is one primary pressure on the dollar and the American worker. They need jobs that can get them housing in the US, but for the middle class, it means sacrificing a lot of income to live where the good schools are.

The changes are coming fast, and we have to do what we can to mitigate the damage to the poor in this country. Revolution is not the answer, we need to find a way to make a soft landing, which we aren’t necessarily doing now.

Before the problems spiral beyond our ability to even conceive to control them.

 

[cynic]

I think vern was trying to insinuate that I thought exploitative labour practices were a good thing, which isn’t true, or some of champagne socialist who doesn’t like to see others achieve …which is lol.

 

[ALLFORHIM]

Great post! What a wonderful thing you do for your community! I have to say I do agree with you … people caught abusing the system by committing fraud need to be cut off.

That is exactly right!! I dont understand why the state systems cant just do that. Other then meeting with each indidvidual–HOW HARD CAN THAT BE!!!

Maybe the problem is that it is TOO EASY TO DO Our government seems to likt to take the longest path when accomplishing something.

 

[Trader]

One of the problems is the current US economy concerns the possibilty of people losing their homes due to the collapse of subprime lending. A small part of the problem was outright fraud on both sides. Some borrowers lied about their income and some lenders made loans they knew could not be repaid.

The largest segment of people in trouble are decent people who streched a little too far. Some people wanted four bedroom houses and two new cars when they had the resources to afford a three bedroom house and two used cars. Others bought condominiums with an ocean view when they could only afford a place a couple blocks off the ocean.

So, do we demand federal aid for people who want to live beyond their means? Are families in three bedroom houses with two used cars the oppressed poor? I live in a three bedroom house with one 10 year old vehicle and some of you would consider me rich. Where do I sign up for my handout? My JP Morgan stock dropped over $2 last week.

 

[vern_humphrey]

do yo have any reply, any counter argument? The old ‘me against the world’ and ‘others are my enemy’ theories.

Before you get a counter-argument, you have to have an initial argument. You haven’t offered one yet.

 

[cynic]

Yes I have, that right wing rhetoric is a ruse to take away the most minimal and hard won protection for those who need it most.

 

[whatevergirl]

I like the poster, Man’s, thoughts on this…thanks for that insight, Man. Interesting.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Yes I have, that right wing rhetoric is a ruse to take away the most minimal and hard won protection for those who need it most.

The intellectual brilliance of your argument, the in-depth research you present, and the breath-taking eloquence of your debating style takes my breath away.

 

[emily47017]

The largest segment of people in trouble are decent people who streched a little too far. Some people wanted four bedroom houses and two new cars when they had the resources to afford a three bedroom house and two used cars. Others bought condominiums with an ocean view when they could only afford a place a couple blocks off the ocean.

are you sure about this? do you have a study to back it up? i hesitate to make any counter-assertions, not really knowing anything about the demographics of poverty today… but it seems unlikely to me.

excessive debt is definitely a huge problem today, with a lot of different causes – fraud, as you mentioned, being a biggie, and predatory lending, and just plain poor judgment. but i personally wouldn’t lump all bankruptcies under the banner of poverty. to me, poverty means working as hard as you can and still being unable to obtain the necessities: food, housing, utilities, medical care, decent education or job training.

So, do we demand federal aid for people who want to live beyond their means? Are families in three bedroom houses with two used cars the oppressed poor? I live in a three bedroom house with one 10 year old vehicle and some of you would consider me rich. Where do I sign up for my handout? My JP Morgan stock dropped over $2 last week.

i think this is an important point you’re making. not everyone who feels like they’re struggling is actually struggling. current welfare policies, as generally ****ed up as they are, try to take that into account. when they’re evaluating whether or not you’re eligible, they exclude certain assets, like a car you’re using to get to work (and they do pay attention to its blue book value) or a house you’re living in. in calculating food stamp benefits, the major factors seem to be the size of your family and the proportion of your income that’s spent on housing.

but they might look at your stock and tell you not to slam the door on your way out.

 

[vern_humphrey]

Which brings me to a recurring point – why don’t we teach economics in school?

Why don’t we teach kids about compound interest, the Rule of 78, the Time Value of Money? Why don’t we teach them the difference between stocks, bonds and mutual funds?

Why don’t kids graduate from high school knowing the folly of going into debt?

 

[cynic]

The intellectual brilliance of your argument, the in-depth research you present, and the breath-taking eloquence of your debating style takes my breath away.

Debating with you is like clapping with one hand.

 

[whatevergirl]

Which brings me to a recurring point – why don’t we teach economics in school?

Why don’t we teach kids about compound interest, the Rule of 78, the Time Value of Money? Why don’t we teach them the difference between stocks, bonds and mutual funds?

Why don’t kids graduate from high school knowing the folly of going into debt?

some kids have a hard time constructing a sentence …I want to know why my kids are not reading the classics like I did, when I went to school.

I will say though, that I graduated 20 yrs ago from high school…and I did not learn economics, and I went to a very high rated northeastern school, affluent area. I guess the bureaucrats don’t believe in kids learning principles and practices that they*** will ***use in every day life?