"Who are you to judge...?"

[AndyF]

Fraternal correction. It is my duty to care for his soul.

AndyF

 

[Nino]

Right. I think that if you understand the context of the Biblical passage to not judge - it means to refrain from judging the person. We are supposed to judge actions.

We can examine any number of the Saints. Their lives are full of sinful actions, Paul, St. Augustine. But we know without a doubt that they made it to Heaven. So does that mean St. Augustine’s fornication was good? Does that mean Paul’s (Saul’s) murder sprees were good? Good Heaven’s NO!

Good people do bad things. But that doesn’t mean we have to remain silent when those people do the bad things.

Perhaps St. Monica would be a good role model for this. She most certainly did not approve of her son’s evil deeds. And I’m sure she made her disapproval clear to Augustine. But she NEVER judged her SON. She always insisted that no matter how many evil deeds he did, her son was worth saving. And a big Thank You to St. Monica!

 

[Nino]

numero uno…good people do NOT do bad things…while they are doing this bad stuff they are bad and will be judged accordingly…we dont know when they made it to heaven…many times the church takes …50 years (earth years) to decide the individual made it or not…maybe in eternity one earth year is like a thousand!.Also on the ‘minister’ post…I also have found that another bad result of the new mass is the super star bit…hey look at me how holy I am…I am the center of the Mass …not Jesus etc…sins of the vat.council fathers last dont they…

 

[johnlal]

I’ve been finding myself getting hammered with accusations of being judgemental.

Maybe it’s because you are judgmental.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Matthew 7: 3-5

How exactly are you condemning people?

 

[buffalo]

Maybe it’s because you are judgmental.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Matthew 7: 3-5

How exactly are you condemning people?

**1829 **The *fruits *of charity are joy, peace, and mercy; charity demands beneficence and fraternal correction; it is benevolence; it fosters reciprocity and remains disinterested and generous; it is friendship and communion: Love is itself the fulfillment of all our works. There is the goal; that is why we run: we run toward it, and once we reach it, in it we shall find rest.

Fraternal Correction

18:15. But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother.
Si autem peccaverit in te frater tuus vade et corripe eum inter te et ipsum solum si te audierit lucratus es fratrem tuum 18:16. And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand.
Si autem non te audierit adhibe tecum adhuc unum vel duos ut in ore duorum testium vel trium stet omne verbum
18:17. And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican.
Quod si non audierit eos dic ecclesiae si autem et ecclesiam non audierit sit tibi sicut ethnicus et publicanus

 

[Nino]

Maybe it’s because you are judgmental.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Matthew 7: 3-5

How exactly are you condemning people?

 

[Nino]

as one who has lived,worked,suffered and know how to cross the street …I can judge…good from evil…if I cant after all of these experiences what a moron I must be…just perfect for running for congress or president…we parents judge all the time…on our kids and their teachers, class mates habits etc…its called a valued evaluation!!! its like on another thread some here write and brag about pagan practices and that Chrfistianity ‘stole’ all of their ideas…golly,like what…human sacrifice…or reading the entrails of a chicken to forcast the future…or having more then one wife at a time…or worshipping the moon as a god or sun…etc etc…its always open season on the Catholic church…Hollyweird has been perfecting that onslaught for 100 years…leave it to the experts…lets loosen up and ask how we can help one another…o hey gooba…before Christianity there were no hospitals,charity wards,etc…old folks were left on the trail with a small dull knife and a good luck note if they could not keep up with the tribe…sorry gramps…Nino

 

[richardwy]

Good responses.

The “don’t be judgemental” correction is of course a judgement.

Judgement is never in question during these sorts of exchanges.

Never.

The person objecting, if they were precise should say you’re standard is wrong.

See?

All people judge, rule, decide, or conclude daily. From what clothes to wear, to when to pay a bill, and more to our point, what to think about was so and so said or did.

Even the person motivated from guilt to a “hear no evil speak no evil” sillyness does so by judging that it be in their best interest to do so.

Another person may aspire to “hear no evil and speak no evil” because they belive it to be a superior ethic. They’ve judged it to be the most moral route. That is, more right than to call a spade a spade.

If someone will not or cannot exchange honestly, then we might as well go fly a kite.

There should be some quick, down and dirty, sound-bite way to get someone to see the question is all about morality – standards of right and wrong – and NOT the act of judging.

Maybe, Ah, I see you are a moralist would be the best riposte?

That at least would turn the talk to the matter at hand, standards of right and wrong conduct: how one ought behave towards one’s neighbor.

 

[johnlal]

I’m trying to build a repetoire (sp?) on responses for the judgemental accusations.

If you feel that others lack the humility to accept your criticism, then maybe you need to have the humility to accept the criticism of others. All I’m saying is that if you are getting “hammered” with criticism (your word), then maybe there’s a reasonable basis for it. Can you give an example of what you did to get labeled “judgmental”?

 

[rpp]

If you feel that others lack the humility to accept your criticism, then maybe you need to have the humility to accept the criticism of others. All I’m saying is that if you are getting “hammered” with criticism (your word), then maybe there’s a reasonable basis for it. Can you give an example of what you did to get labeled “judgmental”?

Here is an example of Black Jaque getting hammered and accused of being judgmental.

Maybe it’s because you are judgmental.

Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Matthew 7: 3-5

 

[johnlal]

Here is an example of Black Jaque getting hammered and accused of being judgmental.

I didn’t accuse him. I only raised the possibility. He complained that he was being accused of being judgmental. If so, there are two possibilities: 1. Either he was falsely accused of being judgmental, or 2. He’s judgmental.

His reaction to being called “judgmental” is to devise a way of countering the accusation. This only addresses possibility #1 above.

My post suggests that maybe he should consider possibility #2.

There is a third possibility. Maybe he’s oversensitive. If he takes it upon himself to judge others as sinners, maybe he shouldn’t be so concerned about what the sinners say back to him. After all, the central issue is the sinner and his sins. Once Black Jaque is forced to argue his own judgmentalism, the conversation has gone off course.

 

[soccermom]

We must judge actions of others, the EXTERNAL actions. We cannot judge the INTERNAL - that is for God alone. God’s law is reflected in the Bible. We have the sacraments to purify us when we SIN. We have CIVIL LAWS and as a consequence of CRIME, people reside in JAIL and PRISONS. You do not want to get on the wrong side of any JUST civil law (abortion is “lawful” but is intrinsically evil & unjust in every circumstance) or you may risk conviction, prison, penalties, etc. So you do not want to be a perpetrator or accomplice of a crime.

I learned about a situation by an inlaw about sibling’s behavior & didn’t sound right to me & I could not condone it. She tipped off the sibling while on my way over that I disapproved of sibling’s lifestyle. This behavior now impacted when my daughter would be allowed to be at her home. So as I was driving over, she had time to formulate her arguments as to why I should approve her behavior and wow, did her response escalate! I told her change that behavior for your own soul and for the well-being of your children! Go to a priest, talk about this & go to confession & don’t miss mass. God will help you through this. After a stormy reply on her part, I drove away in shock at her amazing response but at the same time at peace!!! I informed her with all the calmness and love I could muster that what she was doing was wrong and was not good for her, my daughter, her children and her sphere of influence. I got so rattled it was tough to keep my presence of mind. I asked the Holy Spirit to give me the right words to say and He did!!!

After a 3 month silence, we met & since then have gotten along fairly well. Another sibling told me he confronted her & told her the same thing. She won’t bring up the subject - she knows I cannot give approval for what I know is contrary to God’s law and as a result, our relationship is not the same.

…Fr. Corapi is correct - political correctness is a “scourge” !!!

Fraternal correction can be difficult but if we fail to respond, we could be guilty of the sin of omission. Best to ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. Its’ indeed hard to hate the sin and love the sinner & go do the right thing. In this day, you may be persecuted & misunderstood - but who was more persecuted & misunderstood than Our Lord?

 

[Mari]

I can’t stand hearing the statement, “Don’t be so judgemental…” It really seems to be an excuse for bad behavior; a way out of an uncomfortable conversation. If this is said to me, I immediately realize I have spoken the Truth and that it has truly struck a nerve with the individual. The person feels they need to defend themself or the person they feel is being “judged”. We live in a society where people want to be considered “good people”; it doesn’t matter whether or not you follow Church teachings, God’s laws or the Bible. I have Catholic family members who use these terms regularly “She is a good person, it doesn’t matter that she doesn’t go to church or has a tugal ligation”. “Don’t judge her, she’s a good person.” Aren’t they being judgemental in determining whether or not she is a “good person?” I don’t judge whether or not someone is good or bad - That’s up to God. What I do have authority to judge is behavior. I have the intellect and properly formed conscience to determine if an act is right or wrong - a sin or not. It is at this time in which *I am obligated to admonish the sinner. *It is an act of Love, not a judgemental act. And I/we may not be liked much afterward, either. But that is a sacrifice I/we must all make to help each other reach Heaven. It appears that accusations of being judgemental have become a defense for sin.

I agree with living a virtuous and moral life and being an example to all, and that the delivery of the message must be done lovingly. However, if a situation presents itself, I cannot stand idle and not speak the truth. And sometimes I am more passionate and firm than loving. But, none of us want to stand before God and have to answer why we didn’t point out a sin that is potentially fatal to another’s soul. Not wanting to sound “judgemental” will be hard to explain.

 

[Sarabande]

There are ways in expressing your beliefs without sounding “judgemental”. It also depends on the personality of the person. I know people who have a personality that will always sound judgemental. It’s just how they are. If you don’t know them well enough, you’d think that person is a you-know-what. Although, sometimes that person is a you-know-what and they never get anywhere in their witness to morality or religiosity.

There are others I know who are well-respected by those around them and never come across as judgemental. By their actions and the way they word their thoughts, they know how to witness well.

I’m not perfect and have made mistakes of speaking before thinking. But my friends have told me that they have always been able to trust my opinion and beliefs on morals and faith because I never appear to judge them. I can tell them that what they did was wrong, but in such a way that they don’t feel like I’m condemning them.

When I was growing up, my mother tended to be the harsh disciplinarian. Very black and white and unmoving. She would joke that she was an ogre. My father was the understanding, reasonable, wise and sympathetic disciplinarian. Good cop/Bad cop scenario. Both had their good points and bad points which worked well together and these points are natural to their personalities, but my father got much further with me in doing things because he got me to understand it was good and right, rather than because we were told to do it or that we were scared into it. He never judged, although you did feel really bad if he appeared disappointed in you. He also tends to be the mediator in any disputes in the family or outside of it because of his nature.

So there are ways to express what’s right without coming across as “judgemental”. To some people it’s natural. To others it needs to be learned. You have to be strong, yet soft at the same time, if that makes sense. A sympathetic nature to assure the other person that you are also not without sin and understand the problems they are going through. For many people that works. For some people, being very straight-forward and harsh works. But I know, in at least my experience, the former works better in getting people to think about their choices in life and changing.

 

[rpp]

I didn’t accuse him. I only raised the possibility. He complained that he was being accused of being judgmental. If so, there are two possibilities: 1. Either he was falsely accused of being judgmental, or 2. He’s judgmental.

His reaction to being called “judgmental” is to devise a way of countering the accusation. This only addresses possibility #1 above.

My post suggests that maybe he should consider possibility #2.

There is a third possibility. Maybe he’s oversensitive. If he takes it upon himself to judge others as sinners, maybe he shouldn’t be so concerned about what the sinners say back to him. After all, the central issue is the sinner and his sins. Once Black Jaque is forced to argue his own judgmentalism, the conversation has gone off course.

Before such a discussion can continue. We must define terms. Please define your idea of what being judgmental is. I suspect we disagree.

 

[rpp]

What the Holy Scriptures have to say about “fraternal correction”.

3:16And it came to pass at the end of seven days, that the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.
Ezekiel 3:16 - 21

And about judging.

7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?
Matthew 7:1 - 4

But here is the verse everyone ignores.

7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Matthew 7:5

The very next verse. Read in context, it seems to me that I must make those corrections in myself, or at least be in the process of making those corrections before I can correct someone else.

In fact, it seems the real point here is to not be hypocritical.

At the same time, I am obligated to correct someone.

That mean that I as a chaste single man, for example, can properly, and in good conscience, correct someone who is unchaste. More than that, I am required to do so. And of course, I am required to do it charitably (which would be more effective anyway).

 

[johnlal]

Before such a discussion can continue. We must define terms. Please define your idea of what being judgmental is. I suspect we disagree.

I have always heard “judgmental” as a pejoriative term, somebody who judges harshly or makes moral judgment based on one’s own opinion. I have not heard of anyone being complimented with the term “judgmental”.

Furthermore, when I think of a person who is judgmental, it is usually someone whose judgment is neither solicited or welcome-- one who has no interest in the matter being judged, and one who has not been injured by the person being judged. An interloper, a buttinsky, meddler, kibitzer, etc.

 

[cheddarsox]

If they say, “Who are you to judge?”, you can tell them the truth. You are a Catholic, this is what the Church teaches and why, including the authority the Church holds as given by Christ. Beyond that, they can like it or lump it, but that is the answer.

Might get some to take a second look.

 

[anthony022071]

Galatians 6,1 :

“My friends,if anyone is detected in a transgression,you who have received the Spirit should restore such a person in a spirit of gentleness.”

 

[anthony022071]

Romans 14,1:

“Welcome those who are weak in faith,but not for the purpose of quarreling over opinions.”

Romans 14,13:

“Let us therefore no longer pass judgement on one another,but resolve instead never to put a stumbling block or hindrance in the way of another.”

Romans 15,1:

“We who are stong ought to put up with the failings of those who are weak,and not to please ourselves.”