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oneofmany
Guest
Did John the Baptist get baptized? Who did it or did he baptize himself? When Jesus came to be baptized, why didn’t John ask Jesus to baptize him?
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DaveBj
Guest
We don’t know. Period. We don’t know that John ever was baptized, altho my guess is that he might have been, by the Essenes.
With regard to your last question, John did say that Jesus should be the one baptizing him.
With regard to your last question, John did say that Jesus should be the one baptizing him.
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aicirt
Guest
Why would you think he was baptized by the Essenes? If they had been baptized, they would have become Christian yet we think of them as Jews.
Where did the idea of baptism come from? Was it a revelation from God and, if so, when did that happen?
I like this post from another thread:
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aicirt
Guest
What was the purpose of his baptism? And how do we know what formula he used? If it was in the Trinitarian formula, then when was the actual sacrament of baptism initiated and by whom?
John’s baptism was a baptism of repentance. It was NOT in the Trinitarian formula and it has nothing to do with Christian baptism instituted by Christ. The word, baptism, means immerse and that is all that John did.
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aicirt
Guest
When did Christ baptize?
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kkollwitz
Guest
When did Jesus baptize?
Check John 3:
22 “After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized. 23 John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people came and were baptized.”
26 And they came to John, and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you bore witness, here he is, baptizing, and all are going to him.”
But not for long, see John 4:
1 Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), 3 he left Judea and departed again to Galilee.
Check John 3:
22 “After this Jesus and his disciples went into the land of Judea; there he remained with them and baptized. 23 John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was much water there; and people came and were baptized.”
26 And they came to John, and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you beyond the Jordan, to whom you bore witness, here he is, baptizing, and all are going to him.”
But not for long, see John 4:
1 Now when the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 2 (although Jesus himself did not baptize, but only his disciples), 3 he left Judea and departed again to Galilee.
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patrick457
Guest
The Essenes did not ‘baptize’ in the Christian sense. They partook of ritual immersions in a miqveh, but then again so did all Jews at the time. The only difference is that the Essenes apparently did it several times a day.
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DaveBj
Guest
See patrick457’s post #10. The mikvah could have been considered a sort of baptism. And the word “baptism” doesn’t necessarily mean “Christian baptism;” for starters, John’s baptism was not a Christian baptism.
I don’t know. It just appeared in the Gospels, with John preaching repentance and then dipping repentant sinners in the waters of the Jordan River.
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patrick457
Guest
Josephus is apparently intrigued by John’s baptism and understands it first as a purification of the body, playing the same role as the miqveh. The spiritual question involved is whether John has the power to forgive sins, perhaps with the aid of water that has mystical properties. Josephus strongly denies that John claimed any such power: the washing was an outward physical manifestation of a spiritual commitment to repentance and performing good works.
Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod’s army came from God, and was a very just punishment for what he did against John called the baptist. For Herod had him killed, although he was a good man and had urged the Jews to exert themselves to virtue, both as to justice toward one another and reverence towards God, and having done so join together in washing. For immersion in water, it was clear to him, could not be used for the forgiveness of sins, but as a sanctification of the body, and only if the soul was already thoroughly purified by right actions.
Which is somewhat close to what the gospels say:
In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” …] Then Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region about the Jordan were going out to him, and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? Bear fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not presume to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father,’ for I tell you, God is able from these stones to raise up children for Abraham. Even now the axe is laid to the root of the trees. Every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.”
The other differences between normal ritual baths and John’s own is that while miqvaoth could be found almost everywhere, John holds his exclusively in different parts of the Jordan river (full of symbolic significance) and that while normal immersions are usually self-administered, in John’s case you apparently needed him to perform.
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patrick457
Guest
Baptism as a practice would have been derived from Jewish purificatory immersion. Now the concept which links it with repentance is something that was peculiar to John. Who knows? Perhaps he received inspiration.
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aicirt
Guest
Okay but after John baptizes Christ in Luke 3:21,After all the people had been baptized and Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, heaven was opened and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in fodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son, with you I am well pleased.”
Here’s the Trinity. If He wasn’t baptized in the Trinity, why was the baptism so profound that all three persons of the Trinity appeared?
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patrick457
Guest
That baptism was important because Jesus was important.
Besides, why would John have knowledge of a mystery that wasn’t even properly revealed or defined yet?
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PJM
Guest
YES in the extrodinaty fom of Martyrdom.
He gave his life for Christ! Baptism of Blood:thumbsup:
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aicirt
Guest
John 3: 22…Christ is baptizing at the same time as John is baptizing but neither are baptizing in the name of the Trinity. So when was the baptism as we know it inititiated?That baptism was important because Jesus was important.
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patrick457
Guest
I’m not totally sure (somebody correct me), but I believe that it would be after the Resurrection, when Jesus gave the command to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
As an aside (tongue-in-cheek moment), I have a hard time imagining Jesus using the Trintarian formula. “In the name of the Father, me, and the Holy Spirit”?
po18guy
Well-known member
Luke 3:1-4Baptism as a practice would have been derived from Jewish purificatory immersion. Now the concept which links it with repentance is something that was peculiar to John. Who knows? Perhaps he received inspiration.
Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA)
3 Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, Pontius Pilate being governor of Judea, and Herod being tetrarch of Galilee, and Philip his brother tetrarch of Iturea, and the country of Trachonitis, and Lysanias tetrarch of Abilina;
2 Under the high priests Annas and Caiphas; the word of the Lord was made unto John, the son of Zachary, in the desert.
3 And he came into all the country about the Jordan, preaching the baptism of penance for the remission of sins;
4 As it was written in the book of the sayings of Isaias the prophet: A voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight his paths.
For this reason, John is known as the last prophet of the Old Testament. He introduced the concept of repentance for the forgiveness of sin, whereas ritual sacrifice had made atonement under the law of Moses.
po18guy
Well-known member
Neither can I imagine a third, pre-ascension baptism. Peter it is who teaches that baptism now saves, cleansing of sin and clearing our conscience (1 Peter 3:21). He must have received that in teaching from our Lord, although he also received direct revelation - knowing where Christ went between His death and resurrection (1 Peter 3:19-20, 1 Peter 4:6).I’m not totally sure (somebody correct me), but I believe that it would be after the Resurrection, when Jesus gave the command to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
As an aside (tongue-in-cheek moment), I have a hard time imagining Jesus using the Trintarian formula. “In the name of the Father, me, and the Holy Spirit”?
Nevertheless, it is good that Matthew recorded the formula, as some today make the mistake of baptizing in the name of Jesus alone. Their “teachers” apparently forget that there were two “competing” baptisms, that of John and that of Jesus, and that the ancient terminology was used only to differentiate between them. Jesus alone provided the formula in Matthew 28.
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