Who can deny that the evils in this world help to separate us from God?

[sudy]

There is evil in the world, certainly. I’m convinced that nobody would argue otherwise.

John 10:27-30 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.

Read Psalm 91

Evil in this world has no power over us, unless we give it power over us. Temptation is all around us, but…

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your strength, but with the temptation will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Of course, without grace we would all be helpless.

I don’t claim that we are fully united, however.

757 "The Church, further, which is called ‘that Jerusalem which is above’ and ‘our mother’, is described as the spotless spouse of the spotless lamb. It is she whom Christ ‘loved and for whom he delivered himself up that he might sanctify her.’ It is she whom he unites to himself by an unbreakable alliance, and whom he constantly ‘nourishes and cherishes.’"149

769 "The Church . . . will receive its perfection only in the glory of heaven,"179 at the time of Christ’s glorious return. Until that day, "the Church progresses on her pilgrimage amidst this world’s persecutions and God’s consolations."180 Here below she knows that she is in exile far from the Lord, and longs for the full coming of the Kingdom, when she will "be united in glory with her king."181 The Church, and through her the world, will not be perfected in glory without great trials. Only then will "all the just from the time of Adam, ‘from Abel, the just one, to the last of the elect,’ . . . be gathered together in the universal Church in the Father’s presence."182

Source: vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p1.htm

 

[thistle]

I can assure you that I’m full of joy and fully optimistic that we will eventually be united with God after leaving this wretched world if we are found worthy! Whoever loves their life in this world is being deceived by Satan!

That is a stupid comment and certainly not taught by the Church.

 

[rcwitness]

That is a stupid comment and certainly not taught by the Church.

I don’t think it’s stupid at all, but a logical conclusion of John 12:25

He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

 

[Beryllos]

To think that we are fully united to God by attending Sunday Mass would be absurd!

You are right about that. Unity with God, and with it joy in life, comes from faith, hope, and love, not necessarily from attending Mass (though Mass certainly can help).

 

[Wesrock]

The issue isn’t that there are evils in the world, but the comments Robert Sock made early in the other thread which were essentially a Gnostic/Manichean view of matter, and implying that we are not only to put God first before other worldly ambitions and pleasures (definitely true), but implying that we are to hate the world with a downright loathing in our bowels as some type of demiurgic prison.

His comments in this topic have been better.

Christianity is a middle-way, as G.K. Chesterton loved to point out.

 

[Wesrock]

I don’t think it’s stupid at all, but a logical conclusion of John 12:25

He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

And what it means to “hate one’s life” should be interpreted through the heart of the Church, or at least be knowledgeable of any cultural idioms that Jesus may have been using.

 

[rcwitness]

And what it means to “hate one’s life” should be interpreted through the heart of the Church, or at least be knowledgeable of any cultural idioms that Jesus may have been using.

I understand it to mean a life that is not reconciled to God. Our life leads to death. His life gives life to the world. He is the only eternal one.

 

[TechieGuy]

So, Robert … things going okay at home? Problems at work?

What’s up?

 

[Bookcat]

Whoever loves their life in this world is being deceived by Satan!

No that is* not simply a true statement* if one takes it as simply written in 21st century English.

Now if one takes it in the way sense of what Jesus said and that is recorded in John - it can make sense. But that IS when one takes it as he and John meant it - as the Church understands it.

And what it means to “hate one’s life” should be interpreted through the heart of the Church, or at least be knowledgeable of any cultural idioms that Jesus may have been using.

Very True.

but a logical conclusion of John 12:25

He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.

How is that to be understood?

Pope Benedict XVI explains:

"What the Lord says of himself here in this Christological parable is applied to us in two other verses: “He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life” (v. 25).

I think that when we first hear this we do not like it. We would like to say to the Lord: “But what are you telling us, Lord? Must we even hate our life? Isn’t our life a gift of God? Haven’t we been created in his image and likeness? Shouldn’t we be grateful and glad that he has given us life?”. However, Jesus’ words have another meaning. Of course the Lord has given us life and we are grateful for this. Gratitude and joy are fundamental attitudes of Christian life. Yes, we can be happy because we know that each of our lives comes from God. It is not a chance without meaning. I am wanted and loved. When Jesus says we must hate our life he means quite the opposite."

~ Pope Benedict XVI

For the rest:

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2010/march/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20100314_christuskirche.html

“* “To hate” one’s life* is a strong and paradoxical Semitic expression that clearly emphasizes the radical totality which must distinguish those who follow Christ and, out of love for him, put themselves at the service of their brethren. They lose their life and thus find it. There is no other way to experience the joy and the true fruitfulness of Love: the way of giving oneself, of self-giving, of losing oneself in order to find oneself.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090329_magliana_en.html Emp added

---

This is the *same semitic expression *used regarding ones father…mother …children…(see Luke 14:26 et al)…and we know rather well we are to in fact to love our Mother and Father and Children…

What we are to do - is Love God above all - follow Christ - and desire heaven and the Resurrection above the joys of life here that God gives us…

…as the Creed says we “look forward to the resurrection”.

Amen!

 

[Robert_Sock]

No that is* not simply a true statement* if one takes it as simply written in 21st century English.

Now if one takes it in the way sense of what Jesus said and that is recorded in John - it can make sense. But that IS when one takes it as he and John meant it - as the Church understands it.

Very True.

How is that to be understood?

Pope Benedict XVI explains:

"What the Lord says of himself here in this Christological parable is applied to us in two other verses: “He who loves his life loses it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life” (v. 25).

I think that when we first hear this we do not like it. We would like to say to the Lord: “But what are you telling us, Lord? Must we even hate our life? Isn’t our life a gift of God? Haven’t we been created in his image and likeness? Shouldn’t we be grateful and glad that he has given us life?”. However, Jesus’ words have another meaning. Of course the Lord has given us life and we are grateful for this. Gratitude and joy are fundamental attitudes of Christian life. Yes, we can be happy because we know that each of our lives comes from God. It is not a chance without meaning. I am wanted and loved. When Jesus says we must hate our life he means quite the opposite."

~ Pope Benedict XVI

For the rest:

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2010/march/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20100314_christuskirche.html

“* “To hate” one’s life* is a strong and paradoxical Semitic expression that clearly emphasizes the radical totality which must distinguish those who follow Christ and, out of love for him, put themselves at the service of their brethren. They lose their life and thus find it. There is no other way to experience the joy and the true fruitfulness of Love: the way of giving oneself, of self-giving, of losing oneself in order to find oneself.”

~ Pope Benedict XVI:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/homilies/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_hom_20090329_magliana_en.html Emp added

---

This is the *same semitic expression *used regarding ones father…mother …children…(see Luke 14:26 et al)…and we know rather well we are to in fact to love our Mother and Father and Children…

What we are to do - is Love God above all - follow Christ - and desire heaven and the Resurrection above the joys of life here that God gives us…

…as the Creed says we “look forward to the resurrection”.

Amen!

No offense to Pope Benedict XVI, but I take John 12:25 literally. If John intended it to have a different meaning, he would certainly have said so. If we cannot take this passage at face value, then we should not take anything else that John wrote at its face value. At some point, the New Testament becomes totally untrustworthy.

 

[Bookcat]

No offense to Pope Benedict XVI, but I take John 12:25 literally. If John intended it to have a different meaning, he would certainly have said so. If we cannot take this passage at face value, then we should not take anything else that John wrote at its face value. At some point, the New Testament becomes totally untrustworthy.

Face value? You mean as a 21st Century American reading the English there? Who just picks it up and reads it…

Such would not quite be approaching Sacred Scripture as it was written and intended by John and … would not be approaching it as as the Church approaches it.

It is very important to read the Scriptures as they were intended and as the Church reads them.

One ends up down wrong roads otherwise.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a3.htm

The New Testament is entirely trustworthy -one needs though to read it “within the Church” (and often with some good background) to avoid misreadings etc.

Jesus did not hand us a “do it your self book” but he founded a Church. The Inspired Word of God is best understood within the Divinely founded and guided Church. And of course orthodox Scholars and Commentaries that are faithful to the Church are wonderful helps.

As Peter himself noted in one of his Letters -the Letters of Paul can be difficult to understand and some of have twisted them to their own destruction…that can go to for other parts of the Bible.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Is there any Christian who does not hate evil? If so, isn’t it only logical that we also hate a life that is so intertwined with it?

 

[Bookcat]

No offense to Pope Benedict XVI, but I take John 12:25 literally. If John intended it to have a different meaning, he would certainly have said so. If we cannot take this passage at face value, then we should not take anything else that John wrote at its face value. At some point, the New Testament becomes totally untrustworthy.

In addition to the first response of mine to this post - see above.

I will add too-

So then you would say the same for Luke 14:26?

So you would then say - “I take -]John 12:25/-] Luke 14:26 literally.If -]John /-] LUKE intended it to have a different meaning, he would certainly have said so. If we cannot take this passage at face value, then we should not take anything else that -]John/-] LUKE wrote at its face value.”

"If any one comes to me and does not hate** his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple."**

ewtn.com/v/bible/search_bible.asp

So I should hate not only my “life” but also my Father and my Mother and my Children?

And ignore my Marriage vows and the 4th Commandment to Honor my Father and Mother?

No that would not be correct.

Why?

Because I am to read such as the* Church* reads it - understand it as Jesus and Luke intended it…which is well explained up above in the quote from* Pope Benedict XVI* (who was given his authority by the He who said it).

 

[Wesrock]

Robert, you seem to be alleging that God directly does evil by placing you here and creating a world in a journeying, imprisoned state.

 

[JM3]

“The evils in others will enable you to correct what is wrong in yourselves.”

St. Basil the Great, Homilia in Martyrem Julittam 9

 

[Robert_Sock]

Robert, you seem to be alleging that God directly does evil by placing you here and creating a world in a journeying, imprisoned state.

Through the sin of Adam and Eve, God has become separated from us and evil was allowed to enter the world. This was not evil on God’s part because He knew that this would eventually allow us to experience Him much more brightly than if Adam and Eve never sinned.

Again, this is not something to be sad about but experienced joyfully because we will soon be with God in Heaven. However, as John 12:25 states so clearly, we should not love this world where we are in exile.

 

[Robert_Sock]

If John 12:25 was written ambiguously, I would agree, but it’s written as clear as can be.

 

[Bookcat]

If John 12:25 …it’s written as clear as can be.

…to the original audience!!!

But that is not you…

See Pope Benedict XVI

 

[Robert_Sock]

Face value? You mean as a 21st Century American reading the English there? Who just picks it up and reads it…

Such would not quite be approaching Sacred Scripture as it was written and intended by John and … would not be approaching it as as the Church approaches it.

It is very important to read the Scriptures as they were intended and as the Church reads them.

One ends up down wrong roads otherwise.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p1s1c2a3.htm

The New Testament is entirely trustworthy -one needs though to read it “within the Church” (and often with some good background) to avoid misreadings etc.

Jesus did not hand us a “do it your self book” but he founded a Church. The Inspired Word of God is best understood within the Divinely founded and guided Church. And of course orthodox Scholars and Commentaries that are faithful to the Church are wonderful helps.

As Peter himself noted in one of his Letters -the Letters of Paul can be difficult to understand and some of have twisted them to their own destruction…that can go to for other parts of the Bible.

If Pope Benedict XVI would have backed himself up using other Biblical verses, Church prayers, or the writings of the saints, I would agree. But you insist that all these other sources must also be reinterpreted to be in line with what Pope Benedict XVI has to say about John 12:25, which causes me to be very suspicious.

*“Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?” Romans‬ ‭7:24‬

"The death of the just: Death will reach everyone, the good and the bad; but the destiny of each one is quite different. The just man sees himself in this valley of tears as a prisoner, serving a very hard term. He considers himself a slave in this world, suffering an extremely distressing servitude. He regards himself a sailor caught in a horrible storm. And as death means an end of his confinement, an end of his slavery, and is the port of his salvation, he ceases not to cry with David, ‘Woe is me that my sojourning is prolonged!’ (Ps. 119:5)… He ceases not to ask with the Apostle’… Who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (Rom. 7:24)”
-The Golden Key to Heaven, by Saint Anthony Mary Claret

Hail, holy Queen, Mother of mercy, our life, our sweetness and our hope. To thee do we cry, poor banished children of Eve. To thee to we send up our sighs, mourning and weeping in this valley of tears. Turn, then, most gracious advocate, thine eyes of mercy toward us, and after this, our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb, Jesus. O clement, O loving, O sweet Virgin Mary.

V. Pray for us, O holy Mother of God. R. That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

“Love not the world, nor the things which are in the world. If any man loves the world, the charity of the Father is not in him.”
-1 John 2:15

“The inner life of man is greatly hindered in this life by the needs of the body. Thus, the Prophet devoutly prays that he may be set free from them, saying, “Lord, deliver me from my necessities!” Woe to those who refuse to recognize their own wretchedness, and doubly woe to those who love this miserable and corruptible life! For some cling so closely to it, that although by working or begging they can hardly win the bare necessities, they would yet be willing to live here for ever if it were possible, caring nothing for the Kingdom of God.”

• The Imitation of Christ *

 

[Bookcat]

If Pope Benedict XVI would have backed himself up using other Biblical verses, Church prayers, or the writings of the saints, I would agree. But you insist that all these other sources must also be reinterpreted to be in line with what Pope Benedict XVI has to say about John 12:25, which causes me to be very suspicious.

What?

The Pope is TEACHING the Church - not writing a research paper.

That is the office of the Pope.

It is not “reinterpreting” it - it is rather known that Jesus and John etc are using that semitic way of speaking here (semitic expression).

One can simply go to any good Catholic Scripture commentary and find this explained as the kind of language it is…