Who can deny that the evils in this world help to separate us from God?

[jcrichton]

The day that Holy Mother Church explicitly declares that everybody is morally obligated to love every moment of their life in this miserable, corrupt, and materialistic world will be the same day that the world enters the New Age where all religion is abolished and a giant statue of Henry Ford made of solid gold is erected and people are made to bow and pray to it.

I’m obviously being facetious here, and I promise that none of these things will ever come to pass, except perhaps in China. Even Job, the Prophet Elijah, and St Paul did not love their life in this world when they were being afflicted, and God always regarded them to be upright! Do you think that Christ loved His life in this world during His Passion?

Hi, Robert!

…you are compounding the issue…

…that statue and that worshipping that you speak of has already been done and is already being worshipped!

The fact that there are billionaires and millionaires in the world while people are starving to death and the fact that powerful and wealthy governments/agents (as the US, China, Japan…) are bent on exploitation of the masses (forcing the culture of death upon those who are in need of financial and military support) while ignoring the plight of the needy is demonstrative of the evil of the brazen images and the worship of them…

Did the Son of man loved the physical torment of His Passion and Death? No! Yet, He embraced it! He did not hate Life because of the pain and discomfort to which He would be subjected; He actually embraced that moment (episode) because it was the cost of our Salvation!

Can you will the death and destruction in the world to cease? Can you die for those who are dying?

Certainly you cannot bring the cessation the evil/injustice in the world, none of us, individually, can.

But we can die to ourselves (“hate”) for those who are less fortunate and going through worse experiences than ourselves… we can sacrifice our comfort for them… we can sacrifice some financial edge for them… we can Pray for them and for ourselves… we can appeal to others on their behalf… we can support the Church’s aide to specific regions/needy people/nation… we can become active in our part of the world to help bring about awareness and change… or we can just fold unto ourselves and simply “hate” Life, hoping that all will just go away (we may need some ruby slippers to get that done, though)… or we can torment ourselves because evil and injustice is part of our temporal existence.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Robert_Sock]

Hi, Robert!

…you are compounding the issue…

…that statue and that worshipping that you speak of has already been done and is already being worshipped!

The fact that there are billionaires and millionaires in the world while people are starving to death and the fact that powerful and wealthy governments/agents (as the US, China, Japan…) are bent on exploitation of the masses (forcing the culture of death upon those who are in need of financial and military support) while ignoring the plight of the needy is demonstrative of the evil of the brazen images and the worship of them…

Did the Son of man loved the physical torment of His Passion and Death? No! Yet, He embraced it! He did not hate Life because of the pain and discomfort to which He would be subjected; He actually embraced that moment (episode) because it was the cost of our Salvation!

Can you will the death and destruction in the world to cease? Can you die for those who are dying?

Certainly you cannot bring the cessation the evil/injustice in the world, none of us, individually, can.

But we can die to ourselves (“hate”) for those who are less fortunate and going through worse experiences than ourselves… we can sacrifice our comfort for them… we can sacrifice some financial edge for them… we can Pray for them and for ourselves… we can appeal to others on their behalf… we can support the Church’s aide to specific regions/needy people/nation… we can become active in our part of the world to help bring about awareness and change… or we can just fold unto ourselves and simply “hate” Life, hoping that all will just go away (we may need some ruby slippers to get that done, though)… or we can torment ourselves because evil and injustice is part of our temporal existence.

Maran atha!

Angel

I fully agree with all you have to say here. I NEVER suggested that we should hate life, but simply that we ought to hate our life in this world as Christ clearly stated in the unadulterated version of John 12:25 which is present in every Bible I have ever read.

 

[Bookcat]

I fully agree with all you have to say here. I NEVER suggested that we should hate life, but simply that we ought to hate our life in this world as Christ clearly stated in the unadulterated version of John 12:25 which is present in every Bible I have ever read.

We are yes to “hate” our life in this world.

And “hate” our children and our wife etc…

In the* sense that Jesus used the term* - as explained by the Popes and Scholars. In the sense of that *semitic expression *(hate…).

*That *is the unadulterated version and meaning of “hate” in Luke as well as John 12:25 and his other uses of “hate” in similar contexts.

We are not to hate this world or our life in this world - that is not in the sense that we use hate in the English in the 21st Century.

We are to love our life in this world- our life of pilgrimage with all its good …

While keeping ones eyes fixed on Jesus …and looking forward to Heaven and later in the resurrection!

 

[LilyM]

I fully agree with all you have to say here. I NEVER suggested that we should hate life, but simply that we ought to hate our life in this world as Christ clearly stated in the unadulterated version of John 12:25 which is present in every Bible I have ever read.

But you describe life as a stinking latrine - you talk of having basically no joy and seeing no good except in the world.to come. What is this but to hate life?

 

[Robert_Sock]

But you describe life as a stinking latrine - you talk of having basically no joy and seeing no good except in the world.to come. What is this but to hate life?

Please be fair and read all my posts clearly. I said that our trip to the Hereafter in this life is like having to walk trough a stinking latrine, not that that trip is in anyway not worth it. I have also stated many times that I’m joyful and most optimistic in my life here in this world, but only in respect to the Hereafter. I have also been most explicit that I love life itself.

 

[Bookcat]

We are yes to “hate” our life in this world.

And “hate” our children and our wife etc…

In the* sense that Jesus used the term* - as explained by the Popes and Scholars. In the sense of that *semitic expression *(hate…).

*That *is the unadulterated version and meaning of “hate” in Luke as well as John 12:25 and his other uses of “hate” in similar contexts.

We are not to hate this world or our life in this world - that is not in the sense that we use hate in the English in the 21st Century.

We are to love our life in this world- our life of pilgrimage with all its good …

While keeping ones eyes fixed on Jesus …and looking forward to Heaven and later in the resurrection!

And of course a great example of living that verse -are the martyrs. They gave up their life in this world for sake of Christ - and thus “keep it for eternal life”.

 

[Robert_Sock]

We are yes to “hate” our life in this world.

And “hate” our children and our wife etc…

In the* sense that Jesus used the term* - as explained by the Popes and Scholars. In the sense of that *semitic expression *(hate…).

*That *is the unadulterated version and meaning of “hate” in Luke as well as John 12:25 and his other uses of “hate” in similar contexts.

We are not to hate this world or our life in this world - that is not in the sense that we use hate in the English in the 21st Century.

We are to love our life in this world- our life of pilgrimage with all its good …

While keeping ones eyes fixed on Jesus …and looking forward to Heaven and later in the resurrection!

As I have stated previously, I hate the life of my loved ones in this world, which is really my love for them, the same way I hate my own life in this world

 

[Bookcat]

As I have stated previously, I hate the life of my loved ones in this world, which is really my love for them, the same way I hate my own life in this world

We are yes to “hate” our life in this world.

And “hate” our children and our wife etc…themselves.…not just their lives in this world…and* indeed hate our own life.*

*Not just *“our life in this world”. (No no …we cannot stop there)

That is what the Scriptures tell us. That is what Jesus tells us.

We are not* only* to “hate the our life in this world” -but also hate our wife and our children and our Mother and our Father…and our brothers and our sisters …and our own life (see Luke et al).

But here is the very important key to this:

Only…

In the* sense that Jesus used the term* - “hate” - as explained by the Popes and Scholars.

In the sense of that *semitic expression * (new readers can see the quotes of Pope Benedict XVI up above on this forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=14627052&postcount=29 or various Scholars).

Not in some other sense that modern English speakers would use the term.

 

[LilyM]

Please be fair and read all my posts clearly. I said that our trip to the Hereafter in this life is like having to walk trough a stinking latrine, not that that trip is in anyway not worth it. I have also stated many times that I’m joyful and most optimistic in my life here in this world, but only in respect to the Hereafter. I have also been most explicit that I love life itself.

I have read all your posts very carefully.

I mean this with the greatest respect and love for you, your writing simply is not that of a genuinely hopeful, joyful or optimistic person.

You have the example of Christ, who took great joy in the good things and good people of this world, as I have given examples of earlier, and spoke to and the vast majority of them lovingly.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Please tell me what rationale I should have in loving my life in this world for the past 15 years or so while I have been afflicted with major depression, very severe anxiety, and panic attacks? While you’re at it, maybe you can explain to the great multitude of people who are living in extreme poverty why they too should love their life in this world!!! Do not be surprised if the majority of them who hated such a miserable life in this world enter Heaven at a much higher level than we here on CAF do!!!

God forbid this should happen to anyone, but if you began to suffer unbearable pain that doctors could not alleviate, would you still love your life in this world? If not, what rationale do you have for loving your life in a world where so many people are experiencing just that? Have you no empathy?

 

[sudy]

Catholics believe that suffering can be a gift from God, or it can be a result of human cause, like pollution, for example. I understand why you are struggling to understand how this can be. Somebody suffering can do very much good for themselves and for others, though I’m sure it’s difficult to face as someone who’s suffering before they understand how it can be a gift or a blessing.

Suffering for a cause, uniting our sufferings with Christ’s suffering and offering it up for the salvation of souls is a beautiful sacrifice. Please research it for a better explanation.

Suffering without sacrificing for love is, of course, wasted suffering.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Catholics believe that suffering can be a gift from God, or it can be a result of human cause, like pollution, for example. I understand why you are struggling to understand how this can be. Somebody suffering can do very much good for themselves and for others, though I’m sure it’s difficult to face as someone who’s suffering before they understand how it can be a gift or a blessing.

Suffering for a cause, uniting our sufferings with Christ’s suffering and offering it up for the salvation of souls is a beautiful sacrifice. Please research it for a better explanation.

Suffering without sacrificing for love is, of course, wasted suffering.

I accept my sufferings, and I pick up my cross every day and try to carry it as joyfully as I can (usually after a cup of coffee and a large dose of Adderall).

 

[Bookcat]

Please tell me what rationale I should have in loving my life in this world for the past 15 years or so while I have been afflicted with major depression, very severe anxiety, and panic attacks?

It is certainly understandable how this experience has colored your reading here. We may certainly desire heaven and desire that such sufferings be a thing of the past.

---

It is not the evil that is loved.

But the good.

---

The point of discussing what was meant by Jesus in those sayings with the *semitic expression *of “hate” was to simply explain what they do not mean and what they do mean. Jesus was speaking in a very particular way.

And again such does not mean that one cannot and does not look forward to heaven and to the resurrection and the new heavens and new earth!

Where every tear will be wiped away.

 

[jcrichton]

I fully agree with all you have to say here. I NEVER suggested that we should hate life, but simply that we ought to hate our life in this world as Christ clearly stated in the unadulterated version of John 12:25 which is present in every Bible I have ever read.

Hi, Robert!

…I think that we are in agreement… your understanding and mine of what Jesus demands of His Disciples (all Believers) is that we not form attachments to this temporal existence–we are to live accruing treasure in Heaven… this means that we must not place anything Above God… even our own personal existence.

…I think that part of the problem that arose within this thread is that when we speak from our heart/mind we have a clear understanding of things with the precise values that we give them… but when that is translated into a mode of public (outside of self) exchange the values do not necessarily translate as clear as within our personal perception… it’s like similar with regular language translations… some words lose meaning/depth and idioms may lose all meaning…

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Please tell me what rationale I should have in loving my life in this world for the past 15 years or so while I have been afflicted with major depression, very severe anxiety, and panic attacks? While you’re at it, maybe you can explain to the great multitude of people who are living in extreme poverty why they too should love their life in this world!!! Do not be surprised if the majority of them who hated such a miserable life in this world enter Heaven at a much higher level than we here on CAF do!!!

God forbid this should happen to anyone, but if you began to suffer unbearable pain that doctors could not alleviate, would you still love your life in this world? If not, what rationale do you have for loving your life in a world where so many people are experiencing just that? Have you no empathy?

Hi, Robert!

…again, you are compounding values…

If we all were to be billionaires and have not a care in the world we are Called by Christ to “hate” our Life in this world just as much as if we were suffering the worst human experiences…

The Call to “hate” and to “love” has nothing to do with material wealth or diminished health/capacity…

It is All about our relationship with God: God Above All.

Though I do not know many people, the people that I’ve met who have had nothing but illness and poverty in their life’s experience have been of two divergent characters…

Those who Hope and Believe in Christ have suffered through their experiences with Love, Charity and Joy in their hearts.

Those who have placed their hope and faith in themselves, the temporal gods, and other human beings seem to embrace bitterness and anger–their joy seem to emanate from releasing their resentments upon those around them… it’s the old: “misery loves company!”

…but I’ve found that too many times Believers get caught up in this battle (life’s struggles) and they are ill-equipped to “Love” God Above All and “hate” their temporal existence…

I cannot promise you that your pain/anguish/troubles will subside… but I can promise you that if you seek Jesus’ and Trust Him to carry your yoke for you, He will Lift you up!

We must give everything to God (Love) including our worst failures and our gravest pains and sorrows…

We must not allow our “Light” to be placed under the bed or in a box… we must illume the world, even from our most vulnerable and weakest capacities…

We are to be Salt of the world… but we cannot bring savor to it if we have lost our flavor.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I accept my sufferings, and I pick up my cross every day and try to carry it as joyfully as I can (usually after a cup of coffee and a large dose of Adderall).

Hi, Robert!

…and that’s how I know that we are on the same page… we can laugh at ourselves/situations even while suffering the difficulties of Life!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[ANV]

Hi, Robert!

…and that’s how I know that we are on the same page… we can laugh at ourselves/situations even while suffering the difficulties of Life!

Maran atha!

Angel

I can’t laugh at my own suffering or others suffering, it causes me more pain and I would still always feel the want to die.

 

[Bookcat]

I can’t laugh at my own suffering or others suffering, it causes me more pain and I would still always feel the want to die.

The OP did not say anything about laughing at others…​

We understand your an Atheist

Our desire for you is that you will come to know there is a God and to know Jesus Christ and true life in him and his Church- both here on this pilgrimage and in that beyond this short life on earth…

 

[Bookcat]

"Day by day, man experiences many greater or lesser hopes, different in kind according to the different periods of his life. Sometimes one of these hopes may appear to be totally satisfying without any need for other hopes. Young people can have the hope of a great and fully satisfying love; the hope of a certain position in their profession, or of some success that will prove decisive for the rest of their lives. When these hopes are fulfilled, however, it becomes clear that they were not, in reality, the whole. It becomes evident that man has need of a hope that goes further. It becomes clear that only something infinite will suffice for him, something that will always be more than he can ever attain.

…

Let us say once again: we need the greater and lesser hopes that keep us going day by day. But these are not enough without the great hope, which must surpass everything else. This great hope can only be God, who encompasses the whole of reality and who can bestow upon us what we, by ourselves, cannot attain. The fact that it comes to us as a gift is actually part of hope. God is the foundation of hope: not any god, but the God who has a human face and who has loved us to the end, each one of us and humanity in its entirety. His Kingdom is not an imaginary hereafter, situated in a future that will never arrive; his Kingdom is present wherever he is loved and wherever his love reaches us. His love alone gives us the possibility of soberly persevering day by day, without ceasing to be spurred on by hope, in a world which by its very nature is imperfect. His love is at the same time our guarantee of the existence of what we only vaguely sense and which nevertheless, in our deepest self, we await: a life that is “truly” life."

~ Pope Benedict XVI Spe Salvi

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi.html

 

[ANV]

The OP did not say anything about laughing at others…​

We understand your an Atheist

Our desire for you is that you will come to know there is a God and to know Jesus Christ and true life in him and his Church- both here on this pilgrimage and in that beyond this short life on earth…

That’s why I quoted the above post.

My disbelief has little to do with what I said, most atheists are optimists and some Christians and people of other faiths express my exact same feelings, I don’t think coming to know that there is a god (whoever it is or are) would change anything in my view about the world, the world would still be the same, in fact it would make me a maltheist, I’m convinced that if there is any creator they must be evil or powerless or careless or dead or ignorant.