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Who can deny that the evils in this world help to separate us from God?
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B
Bookcat
Guest
Tis not a stinking latrine.but to actually love our walk through a stinking latrine
That would* not* be the approach or view to take.
Loving ones life in the world - while being on pilgrimage to Heaven and the later Resurrection - has nothing to do with loving anything that is evil.I read through his document and it seems confusing to me when he is talking about our loving the good that exists in this world and whether he also really means to include our loving our life in respect to the evils in this world…
One does not love evil.
Of course one is to even love persons who can have embraced evil - but one does not love evil.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
But we are obviously living our life in a world that contains much evil that we are continually being affected by. Should we love such a life?Tis not a stinking latrine.
That would not** be the approach or view to take.
Loving ones life in the world - while being on pilgrimage to Heaven and the later Resurrection - has nothing to do with loving anything that is evil.
One does not love evil.
Of course one is to even love persons who can have embraced evil - but one does not love evil.
Tell me that the life of someone constantly starving to death is not analogous to living this life as though he/she was walking through a stinking latrine?
B
Bookcat
Guest
Yes.But we are obviously living our life in a world that contains much evil that we are continually being affected by. Should we love such a life?
It is not the evil that one loves.
One loves *life *not evil.
B
Bookcat
Guest
B/QUOTE]
“I encourage you to continue in your efforts to help each other to discover your potential and to love life, to appreciate it in all its limits and above all, its beautiful sides.”
~ Pope Francis
catholicnewsagency.com/news/love-life-have-fun-a-pope-francis-pep-talk-to-special-olympians-96460/
B
Bookcat
Guest
“I encourage you to continue in your efforts to help each other to discover your potential and to love life, to appreciate it in all its limits and above all, its beautiful sides.”But we
~ Pope Francis
catholicnewsagency.com/news/love-life-have-fun-a-pope-francis-pep-talk-to-special-olympians-96460/
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LilyM
Guest
Remember Peter turning up his nose at the animals provided to him for food in a vision? And remember God’s words to him - “what I have called clean you shall not.call unclean”.I still refuse to believe that Pope St. John Paul II is trying to say that everyone is morally obligated to love their life in this materialistic world which is deeply tainted with the evils of Satan. Yes, it is through this miserable and corrupt world that we are able to meet God and eventually reach our true home in Heaven, which we should be grateful for, but to love a life filled with misery and corruption, it sounds awfully perverted to me to love it. We are to love God with all our soul, heart, mind and strength, and to be joyful and optimistic about reaching our Heavenly home is certainly something we are morally obligated to, but to actually love our walk through a stinking latrine, I cannot buy that Pope St. John Paul II actually insists on that. I read through his document and it seems confusing to me when he is talking about our loving the good that exists in this world and whether he also really means to include our loving our life in respect to the evils in this world. We live in a world of good and evil, and to speak about the good in this world separate from the evils of this world sounds problematic.
God has looked at this world, my friend, even with all its flaws, and seen something that is nonetheless valuable and precious. So much so that He sacrificed Himself for it.
And good. And joyful. He partook of the good.things of this world and did not despise them. So much did He do so that He was mistakenly accused of being a drunkard and a glutton!
Who are you to label a ‘stinking latrine’ something that He values so highly? Things that He has shown us are worthy of being enjoyed?
Are you not behaving like Peter in taking such an attitude?
R
Randy_Carson
Guest
Is the problem of evil a problem for Christians? Sure. There are intellectually satisfying answers, but it’s not for nothing that St. Thomas Aquinas lists it as one of two logical arguments for atheism in the Summa Theologiae. But we shouldn’t let this fact blind us to the paradoxical truth: the problem of evil is a dramatically larger problem for atheists:Does anybody have evidence to the contrary? Can anybody on this forum argue otherwise? To think that we are fully united to God by attending Sunday Mass would be absurd!
What are the implications?
*]To complain of the problem of evil, you must acknowledge evil.
*]To acknowledge evil, you must acknowledge an objective system of moral laws.
*]Objective universal moral laws require a Lawgiver capable of dictating behavior for everyone.
*]This Lawgiver is Who we call God.
Ironically, this evidence lays the groundwork for establishing that God not only exists, but cares about good and evil.
Taken from:
Turning the Problem of Evil On Its Head
by Joe Heschmeyer
catholicdefense.blogspot.com/2011/10/turning-problem-of-evil-on-its-head.html
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Randy_Carson
Guest
Is life itself a good thing or a bad thing?But we are obviously living our life in a world that contains much evil that we are continually being affected by. Should we love such a life?
Most people would agree that life is better than the alternatives, death and non-existence.
Here you raise the objection known as the Emotional Problem of Evil. This objection is based on the observation that there is so much suffering in this life that it cannot possibly serve any reasonable purpose; hence, God must not exist.Tell me that the life of someone constantly starving to death is not analogous to living this life as though he/she was walking through a stinking latrine?
While searching for the silver lining in evil events may be helpful for some, for others, the crushing weight of pain, suffering and emotional loss can be more than they can bear. People in this situation are not usually in a position to be able to objectively evaluate logical arguments for the existence of God—they are in too much pain. The answer is not Christian apologetics but Christ.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
The day that Holy Mother Church explicitly declares that everybody is morally obligated to love every moment of their life in this miserable, corrupt, and materialistic world will be the same day that the world enters the New Age where all religion is abolished and a giant statue of Henry Ford made of solid gold is erected and people are made to bow and pray to it.
I’m obviously being facetious here, and I promise that none of these things will ever come to pass, except perhaps in China. Even Job, the Prophet Elijah, and St Paul did not love their life in this world when they were being afflicted, and God always regarded them to be upright! Do you think that Christ loved His life in this world during His Passion?
I’m obviously being facetious here, and I promise that none of these things will ever come to pass, except perhaps in China. Even Job, the Prophet Elijah, and St Paul did not love their life in this world when they were being afflicted, and God always regarded them to be upright! Do you think that Christ loved His life in this world during His Passion?
S
sudy
Guest
I want to share this with you as I was thinking about you today during Mass, about your solitude, when my Priest gave this homily:
"Over the first three weekends of Easter we heard of appearances of the Risen Christ to his disciples – to Mary of Magdala on that first Easter morning, then to the apostles without Thomas on that same Easter night, and a week later to them now with Thomas, and to two disciples on their way to Emmaus, again on that first Easter evening, But now it’s our turn: Have we experienced the Risen Christ? And if we have: Has it changed us?
In the early Church, new Christians were brought to Baptism at The Easter Vigil on Easter eve, so the whole of Eastertime was a time of fresh beginning for them, a time when they began to enjoy living a new life, with a new identity and a new purpose in their life. Those newly-baptised Christians had spent anything up to three years learning about what it means to be a Christian before they themselves actually became Christians. And during all that time they hadn’t been allowed to join the community around the altar: They’d had to leave the gathering after the Intercession Prayers and before Liturgy of the Eucharist began. They were at the gate to the fold, but not yet inside it.
So imagine how thrilled they were, and their deep sense of joy, when they were at last allowed through the gate, as they were baptised into Jesus and given the name “Christian”. It’s a step that had cost them a lot: Lots of them had lost the support of family and friends, some had been thrown out of their jobs and homes, and many even faced danger and death during times of the persecution of Christians. And in some parts of the world today, that’s still the case.
Many Christians today have developed what could be called a “personal” sense of religion: It’s all about Jesus and me. But those first Christians didn’t see things that way: To them it was about Jesus and us, and they would have heard very differently from us the words of the Lord in today’s Gospel Reading. They had entered, through Baptism, into a community, into a fellowship of faith: They hadn’t baptised themselves; they were baptised by the embrace of the community into the community. And, from that moment on, they could begin to be nourished as part of the community gathered around the Lord’s table. They were now part of that flock who found pasture in Christ the Shepherd: They’d become “enclosed” within the communion of the Church. So it’s particularly sad that Baptism today is seen as largely a private affair, where the only member of the community present is usually the priest or deacon who’s doing the baptising. But to be a Christian, solitary and in isolation, is a contradiction. Because Christians are those who recognise the voice of Jesus, the Shepherd, who calls us to be his people, the sheep of his flock.
Through Baptism we share a common identity. Christians have a corporate existence, and a corporate calling that’s exiting, but also demanding: As members of Christ’s flock, within the fold of a community, we have fellowship together, we grow together, we’re fed and nourished by the Lord together. So that he can send us out with the vocation, as sheep of his flock, to shepherd others, by building the Kingdom of God, inviting others to be disciples, showing love for justice and mercy, caring for the poor, and the outcast, and those neglected by society; so that others too may have life, the life that the Christian community finds in Jesus, and may have that life to the full."
The Gospel reading he’s referring to is John 10:1-10
"Over the first three weekends of Easter we heard of appearances of the Risen Christ to his disciples – to Mary of Magdala on that first Easter morning, then to the apostles without Thomas on that same Easter night, and a week later to them now with Thomas, and to two disciples on their way to Emmaus, again on that first Easter evening, But now it’s our turn: Have we experienced the Risen Christ? And if we have: Has it changed us?
In the early Church, new Christians were brought to Baptism at The Easter Vigil on Easter eve, so the whole of Eastertime was a time of fresh beginning for them, a time when they began to enjoy living a new life, with a new identity and a new purpose in their life. Those newly-baptised Christians had spent anything up to three years learning about what it means to be a Christian before they themselves actually became Christians. And during all that time they hadn’t been allowed to join the community around the altar: They’d had to leave the gathering after the Intercession Prayers and before Liturgy of the Eucharist began. They were at the gate to the fold, but not yet inside it.
So imagine how thrilled they were, and their deep sense of joy, when they were at last allowed through the gate, as they were baptised into Jesus and given the name “Christian”. It’s a step that had cost them a lot: Lots of them had lost the support of family and friends, some had been thrown out of their jobs and homes, and many even faced danger and death during times of the persecution of Christians. And in some parts of the world today, that’s still the case.
Many Christians today have developed what could be called a “personal” sense of religion: It’s all about Jesus and me. But those first Christians didn’t see things that way: To them it was about Jesus and us, and they would have heard very differently from us the words of the Lord in today’s Gospel Reading. They had entered, through Baptism, into a community, into a fellowship of faith: They hadn’t baptised themselves; they were baptised by the embrace of the community into the community. And, from that moment on, they could begin to be nourished as part of the community gathered around the Lord’s table. They were now part of that flock who found pasture in Christ the Shepherd: They’d become “enclosed” within the communion of the Church. So it’s particularly sad that Baptism today is seen as largely a private affair, where the only member of the community present is usually the priest or deacon who’s doing the baptising. But to be a Christian, solitary and in isolation, is a contradiction. Because Christians are those who recognise the voice of Jesus, the Shepherd, who calls us to be his people, the sheep of his flock.
Through Baptism we share a common identity. Christians have a corporate existence, and a corporate calling that’s exiting, but also demanding: As members of Christ’s flock, within the fold of a community, we have fellowship together, we grow together, we’re fed and nourished by the Lord together. So that he can send us out with the vocation, as sheep of his flock, to shepherd others, by building the Kingdom of God, inviting others to be disciples, showing love for justice and mercy, caring for the poor, and the outcast, and those neglected by society; so that others too may have life, the life that the Christian community finds in Jesus, and may have that life to the full."
The Gospel reading he’s referring to is John 10:1-10
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Robert_Sock
Guest
It personally scares me to death when a pope like Pope Benedict XVI begins to rewrite the words of Christ in ways that Christ probably never intended and is totally inconsistent with so many other sources that clearly suggest otherwise!
D
davidv
Guest
Why must it be an “all or nothing” situation?The day that Holy Mother Church explicitly declares that everybody is morally obligated to love every moment of their life in this miserable, corrupt, and materialistic world will be the same day that the world enters the New Age where all religion is abolished and a giant statue of Henry Ford made of solid gold is erected and people are made to bow and pray to it.
I’m obviously being facetious here, and I promise that none of these things will ever come to pass, except perhaps in China. Even Job, the Prophet Elijah, and St Paul did not love their life in this world when they were being afflicted, and God always regarded them to be upright! Do you think that Christ loved His life in this world during His Passion?
B
Bookcat
Guest
It is a gift from God for starts.But we are obviously living our life in a world that contains much evil that we are continually being affected by. Should we love such a life?
No it is not. Nor should one take such a case and extend it the rest.Tell me that the life of someone constantly starving to death is not analogous to living this life as though he/she was walking through a stinking latrine?
B
Bookcat
Guest
Pope Benedict did not rewrite the words of Christ! Even when in places where he further elaborates from them.It personally scares me to death when a pope like Pope Benedict XVI begins to rewrite the words of Christ in ways that Christ probably never intended and is totally inconsistent with so many other sources that clearly suggest otherwise!
Go search out the sources of faithful commentaries- “hate” there is a semitic expression. This is NOT new. It is simply how those phrases are to be understood - this is not something Pope Benedict came up with…they were understood as such by his original audience.
B
Bookcat
Guest
One does not love “the evil” in life.The day that Holy Mother Church explicitly declares that everybody is morally obligated to love every moment of their life in this miserable, corrupt, and materialistic world will be the same day that the world enters the New Age where all religion is abolished and a giant statue of Henry Ford made of solid gold is erected and people are made to bow and pray to it.
I’m obviously being facetious here, and I promise that none of these things will ever come to pass, except perhaps in China. Even Job, the Prophet Elijah, and St Paul did not love their life in this world when they were being afflicted, and God always regarded them to be upright! Do you think that Christ loved His life in this world during His Passion?
Does one have to “love that bad head ache one is having?” no of course not.
One does not have to “love” various miseries they encounter - one though excepts them and can use them for getting closer to God and for the salvation of others… though in the example of the Saints one does find a certain love even for such- seeing in them the good they they are for them and their sharing in the sufferings of Christ.
One is though to love his life and love creation (both matter and spirit) and love his wife and children and parents and brother and sisters and friends and even enemies…
While keeping ones eyes fixed on Jesus …and looking forward to Heaven and later the resurrection!
R
Robert_Sock
Guest
Bookcat;14632814**:
I would never deny that our life is a gift from God!!! What I am saying, that you seem to be consistently missing, is that we are currently living in a fallen world where people should certainly value life, but should not be required to love their life in this miserable, corrupt, and materialistic world where pain and suffering are so prevalent. Compared to what is promised to us in the World-to-Come, this current world ought to be despised, as Christ clearly implies in the unadulterated version of John 12:25!.
.It is a gift from God for starts.
I would never deny that our life is a gift from God!!! What I am saying, that you seem to be consistently missing, is that we are currently living in a fallen world where people should certainly value life, but should not be required to love their life in this miserable, corrupt, and materialistic world where pain and suffering are so prevalent. Compared to what is promised to us in the World-to-Come, this current world ought to be despised, as Christ clearly implies in the unadulterated version of John 12:25!.
S
sudy
Guest
Jesus says that whatever is bound on earth is bound in heaven. This means that the Kingdom of God is already here. God’s Spirit resides within us since our baptism …unless we reject this by sinning and not washing our robes white again.
Jesus said (John 11:25-26) I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?
We physically die but spiritually live. We are already alive in Christ.
Jesus reigns in heaven already. This life we have now and will have in the future has already begun, here, since our baptism:
Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of our sins.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
This is referring to the very end …delivers the kingdom (Christ’s faithful) to the Father.
Jesus said (John 11:25-26) I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and whoever lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?
We physically die but spiritually live. We are already alive in Christ.
Jesus reigns in heaven already. This life we have now and will have in the future has already begun, here, since our baptism:
Colossians 1:13 He has delivered us from the dominion of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of our sins.
1 Corinthians 15:24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
This is referring to the very end …delivers the kingdom (Christ’s faithful) to the Father.
L
LilyM
Guest
Life is a gift indeed - this world is full of gifts straight from God’s own hand. You, however, are treating it as quite the opposite. And in doing so come across as insulting the giver.I would never deny that our life is a gift from God!!! What I am saying, that you seem to be consistently missing, is that we are currently living in a fallen world where people should certainly value life, but should not be required to love their life in this miserable, corrupt, and materialistic world where pain and suffering are so prevalent. Compared to what is promised to us in the World-to-Come, this current world ought to be despised, as Christ clearly implies in the unadulterated version of John 12:25!.
Sin separates us from God, true. But repentance, the sacraments (especially confession and communion) and good works are the means He gives us of coming close to Him again.
The Kingdom of God is among and within us - here and now! HE is with us here and now, wherever two or three are gathered in His name. He has told us so. St Paul tells us we are to rejoice always.
I see no joy in you, Robert, and no sense of His nearness to you.
B
Bookcat
Guest
No I do not miss that.I would never deny that our life is a gift from God!!! What I am saying, that you seem to be consistently missing, is that we are currently living in a fallen world where people should certainly value life, but should not be required to love their life in this miserable, corrupt, and materialistic world where pain and suffering are so prevalent. Compared to what is promised to us in the World-to-Come, this current world ought to be despised, as Christ clearly implies in the unadulterated version of John 12:25!.
And your missing what I said:
One does not love “the evil” in life.
Does one have to “love that bad head ache one is having?” no of course not.
One does* not* have to “love” various miseries they encounter - one though excepts them and can use them for getting closer to God and for the salvation of others… though in the example of the Saints one does find a certain love even for such- seeing in them the good they they are for them and their sharing in the sufferings of Christ.
One is though to love his life and love creation (both matter/material and spirit) and love his wife and children and parents and brother and sisters and friends and even enemies…
We also are *yes *to “hate” our life and our children and our wife etc - in the sense that Jesus used the term - as explained by the Popes and Scholars. In the sense of that semitic expression.
That is the unadulterated version and meaning of “hate” in Luke as well as John 12:25 and his other uses of “hate” in similar contexts.
We are* not *to hate this world or our life in this world - that is not in the sense that we use hate in the English in the 21st Century.
We are to live our life - and love our life and those we meet in life …
While keeping ones eyes fixed on Jesus …and looking forward to Heaven and later in the resurrection!
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