Who can deny that the evils in this world help to separate us from God?

[Robert_Sock]

My concern is that you will throw out the baby with the bathwater. Your fixation on evil, rejection of the world,** and disgust with your life** may distract you from your calling. It may cause you to miss your calling.

God has chosen you, and placed you on this earth, at this time in history, for a purpose. That purpose probably involves other people (family, friends, community, society). They are sinners, but they are also the image and likeness of God. Jesus says that when we see them, we see him. When we help them, we help him. When we ignore them, we ignore him.

Jesus calls us to be the light of the world, yeast, salt. These are little things that have a big effect on larger things. You are just one person in a world of evil and hurt, but you know what? So was Mother Teresa, and she did her best work in a city full of evil and hurt such as you can scarcely imagine. She was just one person. You are just one person. I am just one person. We’ve got a lot of work to do. Don’t just stand there.

Please quote where I ever said that I’m disgusted with my life. Yes, I hate my live living in the current world, but I’m deeply optimistic and joyful about the things to come.

 

[Bookcat]

I believe that the fact is that neither the Church nor the Bible (after the fall) has ever stated that we are to love our life in this world.

Your believe that the Church nor the Bible (after the fall) does not state such -well is simply that - a belief. And one that is without foundation. Rather a foundation of sand.

The *Constitution *quoted from the Church for example - not only says one can but OUGHT to love such.

Here is from the highest kind of Document - a Constitution - from the Council and Approved and proglamated by the Pope -which is getting at the “things of this life” that you ask:

“For redeemed by Christ and made a new creature in the Holy Spirit, man is able to love the things themselves created by God, and ought to do so. He can receive them from God and respect and reverence them as flowing constantly from the hand of God. Grateful to his Benefactor for these creatures, using and enjoying them in detachment and liberty of spirit, man is led forward into a true possession of them, as having nothing, yet possessing all things.(9) “All are yours, and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (1 Cor. 3:22-23).”

~ GAUDIUM ET SPES .

Do you love your life in this current world? If so, how do you justify it based on the teachings of the Church and the Holy Scriptures? Yes, we are to feel GREAT joy while living in this world, which I certainly do, but that joy should never be directed towards our life, itself, here in this fallen world.

Yes I do - such permeates the Teachings of the Church and Sacred Scripture! Such is a splendid gift - not our lasting home - but yes a gift and yes we are to love our life on this pilgrimage! The Joy of course is to be raised as Paul puts it - in thanksgiving to God.

I love my life and my wife and my children and my father and mother and my brothers. For such is the human gifts given by God - and such is the Christian approach to life.

I also “hate” my life and my wife and my children and my father and mother and my brothers…in the way that Jesus means it in that semitic expression.

 

[Robert_Sock]

Your believe that the Church nor the Bible (after the fall) does not state such -well is simply that - a belief. And one that is without foundation. Rather a foundation of sand.

The *Constitution *quoted from the Church for example - not only says one can but OUGHT to love such.

Here is from the highest kind of Document - a Constitution - from the Council and Approved and proglamated by the Pope -which is getting at the “things of this life” that you ask:

“For redeemed by Christ and made a new creature in the Holy Spirit, man is able to love the things themselves created by God, and ought to do so. He can receive them from God and respect and reverence them as flowing constantly from the hand of God. Grateful to his Benefactor for these creatures, using and enjoying them in detachment and liberty of spirit, man is led forward into a true possession of them, as having nothing, yet possessing all things.(9) “All are yours, and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (1 Cor. 3:22-23).”

~ GAUDIUM ET SPES .

Yes I do - such permeates the Teachings of the Church and Sacred Scripture! Such is a splendid gift - not our lasting home - but yes a gift and yes we are to love our life on this pilgrimage! The Joy of course is to be raised as Paul puts it - in thanksgiving to God.

I love my life and my wife and my children and my father and mother and my brothers. For such is the human gifts given by God - and such is the Christian approach to life.

I also “hate” my life and my wife and my children and my father and mother and my brothers…in the way that Jesus means it in that semitic expression.

You’re perverting the scriptures to justifies what seems to be your love of materialism! You’re allowed to maintain what seems to be your perverted view of reality, but my Catholic perceptions of reality are to be condemned! Where’s the honesty in that?

 

[Bookcat]

You’re perverting the scriptures to justifies what seems to be your love of materialism! You’re allowed to maintain what seems to be your perverted view of reality, but my Catholic perceptions of reality are to be condemned! Where’s the honesty in that?

What??

Of course I condemn “materialism” along with the Church (as understood by the Church).

I am presenting the Teachings of the Church from a document of the Church! That document is Catholic by definition.

And I am reading the Scriptures as the Church (and her Popes and Scholars) reads them. “Hate” there is a particular semitic expression as noted above.

As to your personal perceptions - I have commented on them up above.

 

[Robert_Sock]

What??

Of course I condemn “materialism” along with the Church (as understood by the Church).

I am presenting the Teachings of the Church from a document of the Church! That document is Catholic by definition.

And am reading the Scriptures as the Church (and her Popes and Scholars) reads them. “Hate” there is a particular semitic expression as noted above.

Why do you now emphasize “able to love the things themselves” but decided to leave out “able to love the things themselves created by God” that is the way you originally quoted it? Is it because the latter supports what I had said concerning the early chapter of Genisis and that it in no way suggests that we should love our life in this world.

I’m still waiting for a clear quote from the Bible or the teachings of the Church that is perfectly sound in saying that we should love our life in this world. Taking passages out of their intended context will not suffice.

 

[Bookcat]

Why do you now emphasize “able to love the things themselves” but decided to leave out “able to love the things themselves created by God” that is the way you originally quoted it?

To highlight that we are not only able (allowed …and good to do so) love them …but also we OUGHT to love them.

The whole text is there to read.

 

[Bookcat]

teachings of the Church that is perfectly sound in saying that we should love our life in this world.

I just gave one. One ought to.

And of course one ought also to “hate” such - in the sense of the semitic expression of Jesus.

He did not mean one should hate ones life or hate ones children or ones wife in the way we use “hate” in normal English! That would be contrary to love family and others commanded by God (as well as spoken of by St. Paul etc etc) in Sacred Scripture…

 

[Robert_Sock]

I just gave one. One ought to.

And of course one ought also to “hate” such - in the sense of the semitic expression of Jesus.

He did not mean one should hate ones life or hate ones children or ones wife in the way we use “hate” in normal English! That would be contrary to love family and others commanded by God (as well as spoken of by St. Paul etc etc) in Sacred Scripture…

That quote is as clear as mud and you know it.

 

[Wesrock]

What exactly are we praying for in the Our Father when we plead with Him to deliver us from evil? Does not this evil help to separate us from Him, which is the true topic of this thread

Actually, the way the greek is, it would be just as appropriate to translate it as “but deliver us from the evil one”.

 

[Bookcat]

“…please, don’t be observers of life, but get involved. Jesus did not remain an observer, but he
immersed himself. Don’t be observers, but immerse yourself in the reality of life, as Jesus did.” (7/27/13, Vigil)

~ Pope Francis

“… life is always beautiful when we choose to
live it fully” (7/30/16, Prayer Vigil).

~ Pope Francis

vatican.va/

 

[Bookcat]

That quote is as clear as mud and you know it.

What?

Read it again - the full quote.

 

[Bookcat]

“…please, don’t be observers of life, but get involved. Jesus did not remain an observer, but he
immersed himself. Don’t be observers, but immerse yourself in the reality of life, as Jesus did.” (7/27/13, Vigil)

~ Pope Francis

“… life is always beautiful when we choose to
live it fully” (7/30/16, Prayer Vigil).

~ Pope Francis

vatican.va/

 

[Robert_Sock]

What??

Of course I condemn “materialism” along with the Church (as understood by the Church).

I am presenting the Teachings of the Church from a document of the Church! That document is Catholic by definition.

And I am reading the Scriptures as the Church (and her Popes and Scholars) reads them. “Hate” there is a particular semitic expression as noted above.

As to your personal perceptions - I have commented on them up above.

Let me know if I got this correct: you condemn materialism but maintain that loving your life in a world of materialism is perfectly fine.

 

[Rosebud77]

Perfect, perfect response. Thank you.
So darned ungrateful for the sheer lovingkindness of the Lord here

Not reading any more as it will drag me down.

 

[Bookcat]

Let me know if I got this correct: you condemn materialism but maintain that loving your life in a world of materialism is perfectly fine.

No. I condemn the materialism that the Church (as I condemn all that the Church does) and I love my life in the world in the way the Church says to love it (as I profess all the Church Professes).

And I love my wife and my children and my father and my mother - as God commands me (and of course His Church).

And I “hate” my wife and my children and my father and my mother - in the way that Jesus said to do so - in the semitic expression of “hate”. *(and my own life in this world).

(not hate in some other way as read in modern English…but in the sense intended. As the Church understands it.).

 

[Bookcat]

“We cannot ignore his words that St Luke recorded for us: “If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.” They are hard words. True, “hate” in English does not exactly express what Jesus meant. Yet he did put it very strongly, because he doesn’t just mean “love less,” as some people interpret it in an attempt to tone down the sentence. The force behind these vigorous words does not lie in their implying a negative or pitiless attitude, for the Jesus who is speaking here is none other than that Jesus who commands us to love others as we love ourselves and who gives up his life for mankind. These words indicate simply that we cannot be half-hearted when it comes to loving God. Christ’s words could be translated as “love more, love better,” in the sense that a selfish or partial love is not enough — we have to love others with the love of God.”

~ St. Josemaria Escriva (Christ is Passing By).

www.escrivaworks.org

 

[jcrichton]

Why not re-read my post to see the true point of this thread that needs to be addressed?

Did any Pope ever state directly that we should love our life in this current world?

Hi, Robert!

I think that the issue is how “hate” and “love” are interpreted.

Jesus Commands that His Followers “love” one another; He clearly states that by Loving (in Christ) one another they would Witness to the world that Christ in deed Came and Lived Among us (Immanuel).

Jesus Commands that His Followers “hate” Life and the world; He clearly states that unless this is done they cannot be His Disciples.

While these “love” and “hate” Commands seem to be contradicting, they are actually complementing: Christ’s Followers/Disciples must Love God Above All and their neighbors as themselves (Christians must Love Life) while, simultaneously, they must “hate” everything, including Life and the world, that keeps/removes them from God.

Yes, there’s evil in the world. Yet, evil in itself does not remove/keep us from God unless we are willing participants of that evil; that is, we must willingly embrace evil.

There are thing in the world that are overtly evil–most Believers are able to keep themselves from embracing such openly unrighteous things… however, there are those things that are not clearly evil… they may even seem benign, at first; these are the things that usually hook Believers…

Jesus Commands that we “hate” things in Life that keep/removes us from God while still embracing the good things which Divine Providence brings onto Life.

I fully concur with you that Satan uses temporal means to derail God’s Salvific Plan by luring Believers away from God.

But we must not live in the “fear” of evil but in the Trust of God.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Bookcat]

“Divine filiation is a joyful truth, a consoling mystery. It fills all our spiritual life, it shows us how to speak to God, to know and to love our Father in heaven. And it makes our interior struggle overflow with hope and gives us the trusting simplicity of little children. More than that: precisely because we are children of God, we can contemplate in love and wonder everything as coming from the hands of our Father, God the Creator. And so we become contemplatives in the middle of the world, loving the world.”

~ St. Josemaria Escriva (Christ is Passing By).

www.escrivaworks.org

 

[Beryllos]

Not reading any more as it will drag me down.

Hold the door! I’m heading out too.

 

[Bookcat]

“Divine filiation is a joyful truth, a consoling mystery. It fills all our spiritual life, it shows us how to speak to God, to know and to love our Father in heaven. And it makes our interior struggle overflow with hope and gives us the trusting simplicity of little children. More than that: precisely because we are children of God, we can contemplate in love and wonder everything as coming from the hands of our Father, God the Creator. And so we become contemplatives in the middle of the world, loving the world.”

~ St. Josemaria Escriva (Christ is Passing By). (emp added)

www.escrivaworks.org

We are to love the good of the world. Find God indeed in ordinary life, in ordinary human events and the good things God has given us. The good of life. And we are also to reject the evil in the world…that which is “of the world” (a phrase which has a very particular sense and should not be confused with the other uses of the term).

World in Scripture and the Church has various senses.

We are to be in the world but not “of the world”. That later sense is referring to that which is of “sin”. Not that which is of creation and good things in human life. If one keeps in mind that there are different senses of the use of the term “the world” one can avoid mistaking one sense for the other. God so loved the world… vs “the world” in the pejorative sense.