Who can deny that the evils in this world help to separate us from God?

[Bookcat]

Is it possible that Pope Benedict XVI’s interpretation is in error? After all, it seems that none of the interpreters of the Bible ever caught this error.

No.

And as for the second part too your incorrect - I think your not reading all the posts or reading them too fast (I too can do that …easy to do when there are many posts).

It is NOT - “that none of the interpreters of the Bible ever caught this”

Rather - that IS how they explain it! It is not new.

I explained already - such IS how it is understood.

He is* not* the first to explain this.

It is *all over the place in works of Biblical Commentaries and Scripture Scholars etc.
*

It is just simply the understanding of that use of “hate”. It is a semitic expression!

It is NOT some new idea…

That is how it was meant and how it is to be understood.

 

[Robert_Sock]

[/quote]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=1050545&page=7

and from this thread:

“Is there any Christian who does not hate evil? If so, isn’t it only logical that we also hate a life that is so intertwined with it?”

and

your recent comment suggesting that man (personhood I think is the term you used) is somehow not connected to our physical selves.

I will not further address Pope Benedicts exposition of the idiomatic use of the word “hate” because that horse has been beaten to death. As Bookcat said, it is confirmed by virtually every Christian Bible Commentary in existence (as shown by the extensive links I gave).

God Bless you Robert. Seek out a spiritual advisor who is grounded in the teachings of the Church.

I’m a heretic because I believe Christ really meant exactly what is written in the Bible regarding John 12:25!!!
[/quote]

 

[Wesrock]

It’s time we start cutting off our hands and plucking out our eyes, people.

Literally.

 

[Wesrock]

(name removed by moderator);14629485:

Robert Sock;14629446:

I’m a heretic because I believe Christ really meant exactly what is written in the Bible regarding John 12:25!!!

No, you’d be a heretic for professing things that the Church has condemned as heresy.

 

[Bookcat]

I’m a heretic because I believe Christ really meant exactly what is written in the Bible regarding John 12:25!!!

Huh?

Did Jesus really mean exactly what is written in the Bible regarding John 12:15? And also Luke 14: 26?

Yes most certainly.

Reading it and understanding it as Jesus said it and meant it to be understood. As his original audience understood it. As the Church understands it. (Not something else).

As Pope Benedict XVI has discussed along with countless Scholars of Sacred Scripture and first Century semitic language and expressions.

 

[Wesrock]

“Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life.”

We also need to look at the historical context. Martyrdom was a big issue for the early church. He who loved this life so dearly that he’d renounce Christ to preserve it is in trouble. You must be willing to follow Christ even if it means losing your job, losing your friends, losing your family, and yes… even losing your life.

 

[patrick457]

It’s time we start cutting off our hands and plucking out our eyes, people.

Literally.

I guess we should all become vagrant, curmudgeonly gnostic amputees then.

 

[Wesrock]

I should not have started anything with my comment he was replying to. Thank you, deacon, for the reminder. Robert, I am sorry for the flippancy.

To phrase it differently, Jesus does use extreme language to prove a point, at times. And even beyond that, as has been said, he was not above the use of idioms.

 

[jcrichton]

When we say the Rosary and come to the Hail Holy Queen prayer, do we not explicitly admit that we are currently living in exile? What else could this exile implicate other than our being somehow separated from God? And how could this separation from God not be considered an evil?

Hi, Robert!

I understand what you are saying but the culmination of the prayer is not that we reside/live in exile/evil but that we Hope in God’s Mercy and Rescue:

Pray for us, O holy Mother of God

        **That we may be made worthy of the 
        promises of Christ**

.

catholicsupply.com/existing/prhailholyqueen.html

So you see, even in the face of evil, what actually counts is our relationship with God. As long as we maintain God as the Focus of our life, the exile is transitory (removal from God’s Grace by Original Sin and personal sin).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Yes, and as I said before, I’m personally very joyful and optimistic towards the Hereafter, but as for our loving our actually being in exile, separated from our creator, I think we would be sadistic to love this exile. So much pain and suffering surround us! So much war and crime! So much vanity!

Speaking for myself, I listen to music, classical music with much gregorian chant and Masses, but that’s about the only worldly thing that I can extract pleasure from. Nothing else is the least bit pleasurable to me anymore. Looking back on my life, it mostly looks like vanity. Nothing motivates me but studying religion, talking to and praying for my daughter and granddaughter, and looking forward to Heaven. I live in solitude and I believe I’m not allowed to seek any consolation from anybody but God.
The wisest thing I do is to donate to charity even though rents have gone sky-high where I live and I live at the poverty level. The dumbest thing I do is spend time on the Internet, including this forum, when I should be praying and preparing my soul for the Hereafter that I pray I’m able to enter ASAP.

I know there are many cold hearted people on this forum who will try to criticize me for what I believe and who I have become, but be it as it may, this is me and I believe I’m serving God the best that I can. I’m not an angry person by any means, and I often feel peace and calm, and I’m willing to stay in this world until God calls me home.

I’m not suggesting that anybody else should live like me, and I do not condemn those who do not, but I believe there is a heuristic value in sharing this with people on this forum, and I hope that at least some find some value in it!

Hi, Robert!

I fully agree with the highlighted text… that’s what it means to “hate” life/the world!

Our relationship with God must be Above All!

…when this is true, we can then separate ourselves from the world and all of our attachments to it.

…but we must consider the whole world, warts (evil) and all; we are Called to be good Stewards of God’s Creation… St. Paul puts it in these terms:

16 Be happy at all times; 17 pray constantly; 18 and for all things give thanks to God, because this is what God expects you to do in Christ Jesus. 19 Never try to suppress the Spirit 20 or treat the gift of prophecy with contempt; 21 think before you do anything – hold on to what is good 22 and avoid every form of evil.

(1 Thessalonians 5:16-22)
We are to study/think; we are to choose that which is good (and we Know from Scriptures that all good things Come from Above); and we are to pray constantly… not hindering the Holy Spirit that works in the world and through us… being happy Witnesses to Christ!

…the way you make your statements it seems that you have determined (made the Judgment) that nothing is good in Life… this counters God’s Word and Purpose.

…don’t know about the rest of the world… but I engage you on this site because you are my Brother in Christ–Christians are Called to Love not hate, debase or belittle.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

It’s time we start cutting off our hands and plucking out our eyes, people.

Literally.

Hi!

…well, not quite… but it is time we cut off the attachments that keep/turn us from God… my neighbor’s wife/girlfriend should be out of my mind in any form/function other than that she is a Creature of God who is espoused/joined to another man… if I cannot see her in Christ it would be better for me to pluck out my eyes…

We are Called to Holiness–to “hate” that which separates/keeps us from God.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

“Whoever loves his life loses it, and whoever hates his life in this world will preserve it for eternal life.”

We also need to look at the historical context. Martyrdom was a big issue for the early church. He who loved this life so dearly that he’d renounce Christ to preserve it is in trouble. You must be willing to follow Christ even if it means losing your job, losing your friends, losing your family, and yes… even losing your life.

Hi!

…sorry to contradict… not martyrdom but Witnessing/Standing for Christ… in the US “Christians” sold out the Word of God for the pleasures and conveniences that secularism brought them (contraception, divorce, abortion…); in China and under other oppressive agents, as Islam, Christians are faced with that Choice almost every single day in their lives… they face atrocities, terror and genocide because of Christ… so they are Called, as all Christians everywhere, to Stand for Christ even if this means that we must “hate” (give up) our own lives (comforts and pleasure, included) and everything in the world.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[patrick457]

Good reminder. Sorry if I offended the OP.

 

[Robert_Sock]

What exactly are we praying for in the Our Father when we plead with Him to deliver us from evil? Does not this evil help to separate us from Him, which is the true topic of this thread?

As I mentioned several times previously, I believe most of us have our perceptions of reality formed by what I call the grand illusion that begins to influence us at an early age through the intense, dark influence of the mass media. I can’t help but believe that this grand illusion is closely tied to the evil I just spoke about.

Not that this grand illusion has no purpose, but it is necessary for the survival of our world, and subsequently will bring our world to a state of completion where a new creation will be revealed, along with a true reality, through the Second Coming of Christ.

The trouble with me is that I have a perception of reality that was unwilling built within me, with a core belief that anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life. Yes, I realize that Pope Benedict XVI does not interpret John 12:25 as it’s written in the Bible, and he may be correct, but this is not the core belief that happens to be a part of my perception of reality.

Why all the criticism to cut me down for my perception of reality that is entirely Catholic in its origin, even though my perceptions of reality happens to be at odds with Pope Benedict XVI on just one point? Have I in any way sinned by maintaining my Catholic perception of reality? Am I a heretic for my having this particular perception of reality that was created in me far beyond my own will?

 

[Bookcat]

Yes, I realize that Pope Benedict XVI does not interpret John 12:25 as it’s written in the Bible

The Pope knew the Bible quite well (and he still does though he is Pope Emeritus now)…and so do all the orthodox Scripture Scholars who write page after page about what “hate” means there - it is a semitic expression!! It is a strong and paradoxical Semitic expression.

and he may be correct

Yes he is.

Why all the criticism to cut me down for my perception of reality that is entirely Catholic in its origin, even though my perceptions of reality happens to be at odds with Pope Benedict XVI on just one point?

Because it is not quite correct…

And it is not quite really to be said to be the Catholic view of reality. I think you need wider reading in Catholic works (Catechism etc). That can give a fuller Catholic View.

Not to cut you down - (forgive me if I in any way did that or similar in a not good way…) but to correct your ideas…especially cause you come here to promote or share them.

 

[Robert_Sock]

The Pope knew the Bible quite well (and he still does though he is Pope Emeritus now)…and so do all the orthodox Scripture Scholars who write page after page about what “hate” means there - it is a semitic expression!! It is a strong and paradoxical Semitic expression.

Yes he is.

Because it is not quite correct…

And it is not quite really to be said to be the Catholic view of reality. I think you need wider reading in Catholic works (Catechism etc). That can give a fuller Catholic View.

Not to cut you down - (forgive me if I in any way did that or similar in a not good way…) but to correct your ideas…especially cause you come here to promote or share them.

Why not re-read my post to see the true point of this thread that needs to be addressed?

Did any Pope ever state directly that we should love our life in this current world?

 

[sudy]

I live in solitude and I believe I’m not allowed to seek any consolation from anybody but God.!

I know you’re having a tough time understanding how to live in the world while avoiding evil, so please understand that I’m not looking to make this harder for you. I just have to say something about this comment that’s bothering me. This solitude you’re living in isn’t necessarily a good thing. We are social creatures. Jesus didn’t live in solitude, except when he was at prayer or in the wilderness.

I was listening to something about Mother Teresa recently which struck a chord with me, that she prayed before the Blessed Sacrament for an hour each day, and went out into the world, seeing every other person’s suffering as an extension of Christ’s suffering. This is how she did so much good in the world. I realise we can’t all pray each day in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, but we can all pray and we can all look with love to others who are in need.

In order to help others, we need to be in the world …though not of the world.

 

[Beryllos]

Why all the criticism to cut me down for my perception of reality that is entirely Catholic in its origin, even though my perceptions of reality happens to be at odds with Pope Benedict XVI on just one point? Have I in any way sinned by maintaining my Catholic perception of reality? Am I a heretic for my having this particular perception of reality that was created in me far beyond my own will?

My concern is that you will throw out the baby with the bathwater. Your fixation on evil, rejection of the world, and disgust with your life may distract you from your calling. It may cause you to miss your calling.

God has chosen you, and placed you on this earth, at this time in history, for a purpose. That purpose probably involves other people (family, friends, community, society). They are sinners, but they are also the image and likeness of God. Jesus says that when we see them, we see him. When we help them, we help him. When we ignore them, we ignore him.

Jesus calls us to be the light of the world, yeast, salt. These are little things that have a big effect on larger things. You are just one person in a world of evil and hurt, but you know what? So was Mother Teresa, and she did her best work in a city full of evil and hurt such as you can scarcely imagine. She was just one person. You are just one person. I am just one person. We’ve got a lot of work to do. Don’t just stand there.

 

[Bookcat]

Why not re-read my post to see the true point of this thread that needs to be addressed?

Did any Pope ever state directly that we should love our life in this current world?

"Of course the Lord has given us life and we are grateful for this. Gratitude and joy are fundamental attitudes of Christian life. Yes, we can be happy because we know that each of our lives comes from God. "

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2010/march/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20100314_christuskirche.html

I do not have time to comb through everything Popes have said or wrote to find a quote that exactly says this or that.

Here is from the highest kind of Document - a Constitution - from the Council and Approved and proglamated by the Pope -which is getting at the “things of this life” that you ask:

“For redeemed by Christ and made a new creature in the Holy Spirit, man is able to love the things themselves created by God, and ought to do so. He can receive them from God and respect and reverence them as flowing constantly from the hand of God. Grateful to his Benefactor for these creatures, using and enjoying them in detachment and liberty of spirit, man is led forward into a true possession of them, as having nothing, yet possessing all things.(9) “All are yours, and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (1 Cor. 3:22-23).”

~ GAUDIUM ET SPES .

(w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/it.html)

Of course one is not to love the evil in the world!

But certainly the good things of life - with an ordered love - and with a rightly understood detachment and a love of God above all and a readiness to forsake anything for Him.

 

[Robert_Sock]

"Of course the Lord has given us life and we are grateful for this. Gratitude and joy are fundamental attitudes of Christian life. Yes, we can be happy because we know that each of our lives comes from God. "

~ Pope Benedict XVI

w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2010/march/documents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20100314_christuskirche.html

I do not have time to comb through everything Popes have said or wrote to find a quote that exactly says this or that.

Here is from the highest kind of Document - a Constitution - from the Council and Approved and proglamated by the Pope -which is getting at the “things of this life” that you ask:

“For redeemed by Christ and made a new creature in the Holy Spirit, man is able to love the things themselves created by God, and ought to do so. He can receive them from God and respect and reverence them as flowing constantly from the hand of God. Grateful to his Benefactor for these creatures, using and enjoying them in detachment and liberty of spirit, man is led forward into a true possession of them, as having nothing, yet possessing all things.(9) “All are yours, and you are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s” (1 Cor. 3:22-23).”

~ GAUDIUM ET SPES .

(w2.vatican.va/content/vatican/it.html)

Of course one is not to love the evil in the world!

But certainly the good things of life - with an ordered love - and with a rightly understood detachment and a love of God above all and a readiness to forsake anything for Him.

I believe that the fact is that neither the Church nor the Bible (after the fall) has ever stated that we are to love our life in this world. To actually love a life in a world with so much obvious evil would be a perversion. Loving the things that God created, as expanded upon in the early chapter of Genisis, is an entirely different story, and should never be confused with loving our life in the current world of exile, nor the material things created by man.

Do you love your life in this current world? If so, how do you justify it based on the teachings of the Church and the Holy Scriptures? Yes, we are to feel GREAT joy while living in this world, which I certainly do, but that joy should never be directed towards our life, itself, here in this fallen world.