who can forgive sin

[rev_kevin]

Rev Kevin,
Since your answering are in my post, the quote function isn’t working to reply to you so I’m going to do it this way.

It makes sense: God has decreed that we are confess our sins to His representatives. The idea of mediatorship has been shown throughout Scripture in Moses, the prophets, etc. and the existence of the Scripture itself. You don’t believe that you don’t need the Bible when you can talk to God Himself right?

In order to deal with Catholicism, you are going to have deal with on what we believe, not what you think we believe. When Catholics are going to Confession, we believe we are confessing to God since God Himself has called these priest into service, created the Sacrament and created a Church to facilate this Sacrament. In the Catholic mindset, there’s no “barrier” between me, God, and the priest. Since you’ve acknowledged that if you are sorry (contrition is a requirement for the Sacrament in the first place), then God will forgive then I don’t see how this doesn’t apply to Confession as well.

There is only one mediator to God and that is Jesus.
You don’t believe…I don’t quite understand what you are trying to say.
I am dealing on what you believe, I am asking questions and simply responding to what is being said. I see call it as I see it.
I never said that it don’t apply to confession. I question the need for a priest.

 

[dnu]

Perhaps if you took the time to understand the context of what Paull was saying, who he was talking to and what he was talking about (i.e. the historical context that you still seem to not be able to grasp) then you would understand what this “one mediator” thing is in Timothy.

*Hint: It has NOTHING to do with refuting the Priesthood, nor is the letter prophetic against the practices of the Catholic Church. Context is so crucial.

 

[dnu]

The same Epistle is usually used to “refute” Priestly Celibacy because “the bible says.”

Here is a short video of Catholic Answers apologist Tim Staples discusses how Timothy is used to Protestants to prove the Church wrong. He also manages to mention the context of what is being said.

youtube.com/watch?v=htArWip366w&feature=related

 

[TriuneUnity]

I have given 4 meanings of grace and I dont see that Grace is God coming through his servant absolving me of my sins. I don’t see that God’s grace has to come through his servant.

“that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us.”

“and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

“And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.”

That seems like an awful lot of forgiveness and grace coming from God through His servants, no?

 

[rev_kevin]

as a Catechist, i will answer this with the CCC

the Catholic Church teaches that only God forgives sin.

1441 Only God forgives sins. Since he is the Son of God, Jesus says of himself, “The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins” and exercises this divine power: “Your sins are forgiven.” Further, by virtue of his divine authority he gives this power to men to exercise in his name.

why confess to humans and not directly to God?

1455 The confession (or disclosure) of sins, even from a simply human point of view, frees us and facilitates our reconciliation with others. Through such an admission man looks squarely at the sins he is guilty of, takes responsibility for them, and thereby opens himself again to God and to the communion of the Church in order to make a new future possible.

1456 Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance: “All mortal sins of which penitents after a diligent self-examination are conscious must be recounted by them in confession, even if they are most secret and have been committed against the last two precepts of the Decalogue; for these sins sometimes wound the soul more grievously and are more dangerous than those which are committed openly.”

When Christ’s faithful strive to confess all the sins that they can remember, they undoubtedly place all of them before the divine mercy for pardon. But those who fail to do so and knowingly withhold some, place nothing before the divine goodness for remission through the mediation of the priest, “for if the sick person is too ashamed to show his wound to the doctor, the medicine cannot heal what it does not know.”

its in the quoted verse from the Bible in the last page

Jesus gave authority to the apostles, and the apostles gave this authority to their successors. we’re not saying that forgiveness of sins is exclusive to priests and bishops, but since they have the authority from Jesus to forgive sins, we know our sins are forgiven

God has the power to forgive sin, so wouldn’t we know that our sins are forgiven, especially since God has more authority then the priest do.

 

[MerryCatholic]

We had this discussion on another thread but it was off the topic so I wanted to continue the discussion.
The question is who has the authority to forgive sin?
John 20:23 has been brought up
“If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you refuse to forgive them, they are unforgiven.”
What does this mean to you and why?

God forgives sin, Jesus forgives sin, and He has given his priests the power to forgive sins.
while we cannot forgive mortal sins, we can forgive our associates or family etc but not in the essence that God or a priest can. that is up to God.

 

[rev_kevin]

“that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us.”

“and that repentance and forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

"If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”

“And the prayer of faith will save the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven.”

That seems like an awful lot of forgiveness and grace coming from God through His servants, no?

Point well taken I can’t argue with this.

 

[dnu]

God has the power to forgive sin, so wouldn’t we know that our sins are forgiven, especially since God has more authority then the priest do.

When a Priest administers the sacrament of reconciliation, it is with the authority of Christ on earth that he forgives the sin.

The man in the black robe doesn’t forgive anything. It is Jesus sacramental presence on earth acting through the Priest that forgives the sin.

The Priests authority is that of Jesus on earth. Thats the whole point of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. The Priesthood isn’t a job, it is the literal sharing of Christs power on earth. That is what “in persona Christi” means.

 

[choy]

See the problem is that you assume that God forgave your sins also. If you confess and the priest says your sins are forgiven, how are you certain that they are and not just wishful thinking.

because Jesus said they have the authority. its in the Bible, recorded in Sacred Scripture. even Sola Scriptura believers cannot deny that

Now you said that Jesus gave authority to “people”–“members of a family, the mass of a community as distenguished from a special class, a body of persons united by a common culture, tradition, or sense of kinship, typically having common language, institutions, and beliefs, and often politically organized. A body of enfranchised populace.” This could mean everyone not just certain ones.

you are reading too much into what i said instead of what Scripture is saying. i have no authority nor credibility on this, but Sacred Scripture has. and Sacred Scripture is very clear this authority is given to the Apostles

Yes you are correct about the 2 commandments but a priest is not necessary to repair the relationships.

why not? the priest is a representative of the Church.
and again, Jesus gave them the authority to do so. if Jesus didn’t say what He said, then confessing to priests is useless. but Jesus made it so, it was His intention that we confess our sins to priest

Yes you are once again correct that confession reconciles us with God and with one another but I don’t see one another as just the church.

the truth is the truth regardless of our own personal opinion. the Church is made up of us, the baptized believers. what else makes up the Church? remember, Jesus has always identified himself as a separate entity with the Church, but at the same time He is inseparable from His Church. the two analogies are head (Christ) and body (Church), and groom (Christ) and bride (Church). clearly both shows that the Church is not Christ, but is one with Christ

 

[dnu]

You say that “only God/Jesus” can forgive sin and you are absolutely correct rev kevin.

The Priest, sacramentally, is the person of Christ on earth (in persona Christi).

So it is in fact Jesus that forgives the sin and you are correct, it is just through his earthly representative.

Jesus is the one who made the rules, the Church just follows them.

 

[choy]

God has the power to forgive sin, so wouldn’t we know that our sins are forgiven, especially since God has more authority then the priest do.

as i quoted from the CCC, it is Catholic Doctrine that only God forgives sins. when the priest absolves sin, he does so in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. this authority is given to them from Jesus, and they act on it by the power of Jesus. the power does not come from them, they only act for Jesus

as with any sacrament, the grace doesn’t come from the physical/outward sign of the sacrament, but from Jesus

 

[dnu]

I think choy is saying the same thing I did

 

[rev_kevin]

God forgives sin, Jesus forgives sin, and He has given his priests the power to forgive sins.
while we cannot forgive mortal sins, we can forgive our associates or family etc but not in the essence that God or a priest can. that is up to God.

I agree that God forgives sin, Jesus forgives sin, but not with the priest have power to forgive sin. Then once again I agree with you up to the priest part.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

God has the power to forgive sin, so wouldn’t we know that our sins are forgiven, especially since God has more authority then the priest do.

False dichotomy. It isn’t a question of God having ‘more’ authority; it is a question of your refusing to believe that God (in Scripture) delegated a specific authority to ‘bind and loose’–that is, to forgive or to ‘withhold’ forgiveness to priests.

When the priest is speaking, He is speaking with God’s authority. He isn’t placing himself up ‘against’ God.

When your pastor marries a couple, doesn’t the state and the church give him the authority to pronounce the couple husband and wife? If he doesn’t ‘make the statement’ then the couple, despite their vows and their intentions, aren’t ‘validly married’ until he DOES state it, are they? Now, we know that the ones who ‘marry’ are the couple, but God gave ‘authority’ to pronounce what HE had decreed. . .that is, the marriage of this couple. . .to your pastor, didn’t He? You don’t go around accusing your pastor of trying to ‘usurp God’s authority’ or claim that your pastor is pretending to be God when he marries a couple, do you?

 

[TriuneUnity]

When a Priest administers the sacrament of reconciliation, it is with the authority of Christ on earth that he forgives the sin.

The man in the black robe doesn’t forgive anything. It is Jesus sacramental presence on earth acting through the Priest that forgives the sin.

The Priests authority is that of Jesus on earth. Thats the whole point of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. The Priesthood isn’t a job, it is the literal sharing of Christs power on earth. That is what “in persona Christi” means.

This is an important point. It is reiterated in the forms of absolution that are used. The stress is never on the powers of the individual priest/pastor. The modern Roman Catholic form of absolution is “God, the Father of mercies, through the death and resurrection of his Son has reconciled the world to himself and sent the Holy Spirit among us for the forgiveness of sins; through the ministry of the Church may God give you pardon and peace, and I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.”

The older Tridentine form is even more explicit on this point: “May our Lord Jesus Christ absolve you; and by His authority I absolve you from every bond of excommunication (suspension) and interdict, so far as my power allows and your needs require. [making the Sign of the Cross:] Thereupon, I absolve you from your sins in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.”

The Lutheran form: “Upon this your confession, I, as a called and ordained servant of the Word, announce the grace of God to all of you, and in the stead and by the command of my Lord Jesus Christ I forgive you all your sins in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.”

“It is not the voice or word of the man who speaks it, but it is the Word of God, who forgives sin, for it is spoken in God’s stead and by God’s command” (Augsburg Confession XXV.3).

 

[dnu]

I agree that God forgives sin, Jesus forgives sin, but not with the priest have power to forgive sin. Then once again I agree with you up to the priest part.

The imputation of Jesus authority unto the disciples and thereby the Bishops and Priests today is both biblical and historical I’m afraid. I know it is a very tough and dry cookie to swallow, but it’s the “Gospel truth.”

 

[choy]

I agree that God forgives sin, Jesus forgives sin, but not with the priest have power to forgive sin. Then once again I agree with you up to the priest part.

no, the priest doesn’t have POWER to forgive sins, they have the AUTHORITY to
ultimately, its God that forgives

 

[rev_kevin]

When a Priest administers the sacrament of reconciliation, it is with the authority of Christ on earth that he forgives the sin.

The man in the black robe doesn’t forgive anything. It is Jesus sacramental presence on earth acting through the Priest that forgives the sin.

The Priests authority is that of Jesus on earth. Thats the whole point of the Sacrament of Holy Orders. The Priesthood isn’t a job, it is the literal sharing of Christs power on earth. That is what “in persona Christi” means.

Ok let me get this straight. Its not actually the priest that forgives sin its actually Jesus. Jesus is acting through the priest who is acting like Jesus. The priest isn’t actually forgiving sin its Jesus and the priest is acting in place of Jesus. So in persona Christi is Jesus acting through the priest who is acting like Jesus. Is that pretty close to what it means?

 

[rev_kevin]

no, the priest doesn’t have POWER to forgive sins, they have the AUTHORITY to
ultimately, its God that forgives

I understand the power part but can you please explain the authority to ultimately.

 

[dnu]

Ok let me get this straight. Its not actually the priest that forgives sin its actually Jesus. Jesus is acting through the priest who is acting like Jesus. The priest isn’t actually forgiving sin its Jesus and the priest is acting in place of Jesus. So in persona Christi is Jesus acting through the priest who is acting like Jesus. Is that pretty close to what it means?

lol, if I kept that straight, yes.

The man in the black rode sitting in the confessional booth, flesh and blood, can’t forgive anything. He’s just a man.

As noted, it is the sacramental presence of Christ, acting through the Priest, that forgives the sin/sins. So in essence, Jesus is the only one who can forgive the sin, just as you have noted several times. We completely agree.

Sometimes that is where the greatest confusion can come. Non-Catholics think we’re teaching that the flesh and blood is somehow deified and can forgive sins of his own volition, which isn’t true. Only his authority through the Sacrament of Holy Orders can he act “in persona Christi” and bestow the sacrament of reconciliation.

It is Jesus that forgives, through the earthly representative.