Who can go to heaven?

[bobzills]

**Who can go to heaven? **

**Simple answer: ** Whoever God lets in.

Correct.

 

[Dauphin]

As you yourself now appear to admit, a Jew or Hindu can be saved, even though he has not been baptised by water in a Roman Catholic Church and even though he is not an official member of the Roman Catholic Church. That was my point from the start of the discussion.

I “admitted” nothing. I’ve been entirely consistent in what I’ve said. You asked me to defend a straw-man position, and I’ve responded with what the Church actually teaches.

A Jew or Hindu suffering from invincible ignorance would have to have baptismal grace conferred upon them through a baptism of desire which incorporates them into the church, so in a technical sense, they have to become members of the Catholic Church in order to be saved. It’s a real membership even though it isn’t a formal membership.

 

[bobzills]

A Jew or Hindu suffering from invincible ignorance would have to have baptismal grace conferred upon them through a baptism of desire which incorporates them into the church, so in a technical sense, they have to become members of the Catholic Church in order to be saved. It’s a real membership even though it isn’t a formal membership.

The above wasn’t precisely clear to me from what you said before:

I should hope that **all **of them teach the “strict interpretation”. Incorporation into the Church through baptism is absolutely necessary for salvation. That is a dogma of the Church.

And of course, it depends on what is meant by invincible ignorance. There may be one definition, but I would guess that there are varying interpretations of the definition from a very lenient definition to a much more strict interpretation. Personally, I would opt for the more lenient interpretation, especially in the light of the official pronouncement of Cardinal Kasper. And I don’t see where the Pope has in any way sanctioned or disciplined Cardinal Kasper for his statements on the salvific nature of the Jewish covenant as quoted above. And I guess that as far as the determination as to what is and what is not heresy, that the Pope of Rome would have more authority to decide this over what an anonymous internet blogger opines on the subject.

 

[Dauphin]

The above wasn’t precisely clear to me from what you said before:

And of course, it depends on what is meant by invincible ignorance. There may be one definition, but I would guess that there are varying interpretations of the definition from a very lenient definition to a much more strict interpretation. Personally, I would opt for the more lenient interpretation, especially in the light of the official pronouncement of Cardinal Kasper. And I don’t see where the Pope has in any way sanctioned or disciplined Cardinal Kasper for his statements on the salvific nature of the Jewish covenant as quoted above. And I guess that as far as the determination as to what is and what is not heresy, that the Pope of Rome would have more authority to decide this over what an anonymous internet blogger opines on the subject.

Here’s a Pope on salvation outside the Church:

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews* and heretics** and schismatics**, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her"* - Pope Eugene IV, Bull Cantate Domino
**
If Cardinal Kasper says that Jews can be saved simply by adhering to the mosaic law, he is clearly wrong. It’s a theological absurdity. Jews are not in the Church.

If the dogmatic statements of the Church aren’t enough to convince Cardinal Kasper that the covenant is no longer to be found in adherence to the mosaic law, perhaps the Bible should have some weight:

"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:23-29

There is no covenant but the new and everlasting covenant, and there is no Israel but the Catholic Church. As to why the Pope has not reprimanded Cardinal Kasper, we can only guess. All the statements the Pope has made indicate that he holds the true Catholic position.

Concerning invincible ignorance, you’re correct that definition is clear and undisputed. Here are the pertinent definitions:

Ignorance: the condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

Invincible: incapable of being conquered, defeated, or subdued.

Therefore, invincible ignorance is a state of unawareness which cannot be overcome. The only subject of debate is what impediments are sufficient to render the ignorance “invincible”.

 

[bobzills]

Here’s a Pope on salvation outside the Church:

"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews* and heretics** and schismatics**, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the “eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels” (Matthew 25:41), unless before death they are joined with Her"* - Pope Eugene IV, Bull Cantate Domino
**
If Cardinal Kasper says that Jews can be saved simply by adhering to the mosaic law, he is clearly wrong. It’s a theological absurdity. Jews are not in the Church.

If the dogmatic statements of the Church aren’t enough to convince Cardinal Kasper that the covenant is no longer to be found in adherence to the mosaic law, perhaps the Bible should have some weight:

"Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law. You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:23-29

There is no covenant but the new and everlasting covenant, and there is no Israel but the Catholic Church. As to why the Pope has not reprimanded Cardinal Kasper, we can only guess. All the statements the Pope has made indicate that he holds the true Catholic position.

Concerning invincible ignorance, you’re correct that definition is clear and undisputed. Here are the pertinent definitions:

Ignorance: the condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed.

Invincible: incapable of being conquered, defeated, or subdued.

Therefore, invincible ignorance is a state of unawareness which cannot be overcome. The only subject of debate is what impediments are sufficient to render the ignorance “invincible”.

Cardinal Kasper has his biography listed on the Vatican website. I didn;t see yours listed there. Cardinal Kasper has been named by the Pope to be a Cardinal of the Catholic Church. I don;t see where you have been given that honor by the Pope. Cardinal Kasper has been appointed by the Pope to be President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. i don’t see where you have been given any similar honor or office. When all is said and done, it appears that Cardinal Kasper is more qualified than you or some other anonymous blogger on the internet would be to say what is and what is not the correct interpretation of the teachings of the Catholic faith today. And if Cardinal Kasper is speaking heresy as some anonymous bloggers on the internet claim he is, then why has not the Roman Pontiff of the Holy Catholic Church said anything about it, except to praise and promote Cardinal Kasper to the present high office which he has occupied for some time.
And regardless of how you want to put it, the fact remains that according to Catholic teaching as it is taught today, it is entirely possible for a Hindu or for a Muslim to be saved without being an officially registered and enrolled member of the Catholic Church and without going through the Sacrament of Baptism by water immersion or by water being poured over the head.
If Eastern Orthodox cannot be saved, why are they allowed under certain circumstances to receive Holy Communion in a Catholic Church ? And why has it been reported that the Pope has given Holy Communion to a Protestant Christian?

 

[Dauphin]

Cardinal Kasper has his biography listed on the Vatican website. I didn;t see yours listed there. Cardinal Kasper has been named by the Pope to be a Cardinal of the Catholic Church. I don;t see where you have been given that honor by the Pope. Cardinal Kasper has been appointed by the Pope to be President of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity. i don’t see where you have been given any similar honor or office. When all is said and done, it appears that Cardinal Kasper is more qualified than you or some other anonymous blogger on the internet would be to say what is and what is not the correct interpretation of the teachings of the Catholic faith today. And if Cardinal Kasper is speaking heresy as some anonymous bloggers on the internet claim he is, then why has not the Roman Pontiff of the Holy Catholic Church said anything about it, except to praise and promote Cardinal Kasper to the present high office which he has occupied for some time.

All the titles in the world don’t give anyone the authority to change the Catholic faith. Again, I have no idea why the Cardinal has not been reprimanded.

His statements are certainly not magisterial teaching. He’s in charge of inter-religious dialogue, not doctrine. If my math professor said “1+1 = 3”, in clear contravention of what mathematics tells us, it is my belief that he should be removed from his post. The fact that he’s a mathematics professor doesn’t give him the right to change what math is.

Perhaps the Cardinal thinks that his views can be recociled with EENS. If that’s the case, I’d love to hear his reasoning, but at face value, his statement about the “salvific” nature of the Jewish covenant is obviously in error. Tell me, how do you think his position can possibly be reconciled with the dogmatic teaching of the Church? Am I missing something? The Cardinal says there is salvation outside the church. The church says that there is no salvation outside the church. I place my loyalty in the church, not in the Cardinal. I’m under no obligation to defend his statements or attempt to reconcile them with Church teaching.

I don’t think that you can prove that there is salvation outside the Church any more than you can prove that 1+1 =3.

And regardless of how you want to put it, the fact remains that according to Catholic teaching as it is taught today, it is entirely possible for a Hindu or for a Muslim to be saved without being an officially registered and enrolled member of the Catholic Church and without going through the Sacrament of Baptism by water immersion or by water being poured over the head.

Precisely! However, a baptism of desire is necessary. There is no salvation outside the church.

If Eastern Orthodox cannot be saved, why are they allowed under certain circumstances to receive Holy Communion in a Catholic Church ?

Present the appropriate Canon and we can discuss it.

Eastern Orthodox can be saved, but only under the conditions of ignorance we have already discussed. Gladly, the Eastern Orthodox have valid sacramental baptism, and so their members are incorporated into the Catholic Church, despite being in imperfect communion.

And why has it been reported that the Pope has given Holy Communion to a Protestant Christian?

Is this the same media that just reported the “7 new deadly sins”?

I think you may be referring to a case that happened at Pope John Paul II’s funeral. I recall that the Vatican has acknowledged that distributing the Eucharist to a protestant was a mistake. I was unaware that Cardinal Ratzinger had done it. If he did; everyone makes mistakes. No one is impeccable.

 

[Jerry-Jet]

All who mortally sin and die in a state of sin go to hell period.

It is possible for any person on planet earth Catholic or non Catholic alike to mortally sin.

When that happens if that person is not perfectly contrite for their sin or does not confess to a priest their mortal sin and dies in a state of sin we know of no way by which that person can be saved.

It is possible that god may have a way–it is possible that God might give the person the grace of perfect contrition for their sin before they die but we do not know that.

It is possible for anyone to be Invincibly ignorant.

What is ridiculous is the notion that it is difficult to mortally sin–that is a lie of the devil.

Children past the age of reason mortally sin and they know that they do–don’t tell me that it is impossible for anyone on planet earth–Catholic or not to mortally sin.

The natural law is written on every man’s heart so yes it is possible for all to mortally sin.

If someone were mentally incapacitated it might be possible for them to not mortally sin.

the other ridiculous notion is that it is quite easy for a person to be Perfectly contrite for their sin.

If that were true there would be no need for confession.

Jesus said the road to eternal life is narrow and FEW there are that find it.

Jesus does not lie. When Jesus says FEW Jesus is telling the truth.

 

[bobzills]

If my math professor said “1+1 = 3”, in clear contravention of what mathematics tells us, it is my belief that he should be removed from his post.

At a school that was only half decent, the mathematics professor would be reported and on such a report, he would be immediately removed from the position. This has not happened with Cardinal Kapser. On the contrary, he is given more praise and higher positions in the Vatican and this indicates that the Vatican sees no problem with what Cardinal Kasper has been saying. And according to Pope St. Felix III: “An error which is not resisted is approved.”

 

[louey]

At a school that was only half decent, the mathematics professor would be reported and on such a report, he would be immediately removed from the position. This has not happened with Cardinal Kapser. On the contrary, he is given more praise and higher positions in the Vatican and this indicates that the Vatican sees no problem with what Cardinal Kasper has been saying. And according to Pope St. Felix III: “An error which is not resisted is approved.”

What is truly sad is all of you on this thread have spoken the truth, (at least partially) but continue to align yourself’s with the apostates of the Vatican II sect. Kasper, Ratzinger, Mahoney, and All who teach the heresies promulgated at Vatican II. That is just to name a few. Who is Christ’s and His Church greatest enemy? It is Satan. The Catholic Church is the only true Church, and all other religions, sects, whatever you want to call them have ALL been and are under the dominion of Satan. They are damned. WAKE UP!!! Leave that apostate church in Rome before you die and go to hell. It is not the CAtholic Church. You are being deceived! There is ONLY ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE CATHOLIC FAITH!!!

 

[catharina]

What is truly sad is all of you on this thread have spoken the truth, (at least partially) but continue to align yourself’s with the apostates of the Vatican II sect. Kasper, Ratzinger, Mahoney, and All who teach the heresies promulgated at Vatican II. That is just to name a few. Who is Christ’s and His Church greatest enemy? It is Satan. The Catholic Church is the only true Church, and all other religions, sects, whatever you want to call them have ALL been and are under the dominion of Satan. They are damned. WAKE UP!!! Leave that apostate church in Rome before you die and go to hell. It is not the CAtholic Church. You are being deceived! There is ONLY ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE CATHOLIC FAITH!!!

Leave the Church - and join you in the Church of louey? No thanks.

 

[louey]

I’m neither Catholic or Christian, but what kind of God allows people to live with no chance of salvation? Is it just by possibility that they are born in the wrong place or are they ‘reprobate’?

What kind of a God allows people to live with no chance of salvation? A God who will’s all to be saved, a God who loves all, created all, a God who is most Just, Most Merciful, Most Compassionate…it is a God who know’s the hearts of men, and knows who will and will not respond to His grace. One day all will know the Justice, and Mercy of the One True God. And every knee shall bend…

 

[bobzills]

What is truly sad is all of you on this thread have spoken the truth, (at least partially) but continue to align yourself’s with the apostates of the Vatican II sect. Kasper, Ratzinger, Mahoney, and All who teach the heresies promulgated at Vatican II. That is just to name a few. Who is Christ’s and His Church greatest enemy? It is Satan. The Catholic Church is the only true Church, and all other religions, sects, whatever you want to call them have ALL been and are under the dominion of Satan. They are damned. WAKE UP!!! Leave that apostate church in Rome before you die and go to hell. It is not the CAtholic Church. You are being deceived! There is ONLY ONE LORD, ONE FAITH, ONE BAPTISM FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF SIN. THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE CATHOLIC FAITH!!!

Where is the Catholic Church and who are its bishops?

 

[bobzills]

If that’s the case, I’d love to hear his reasoning, but at face value, his statement about the “salvific” nature of the Jewish covenant is obviously in error. Tell me, how do you think his position can possibly be reconciled with the dogmatic teaching of the Church?

Why ask me? Why not ask the Pope or Cardinal Bertone, who is second to the Pope as Vatican Secretary of State? And remember, according to Pope St. Felix III: “An error which is not resisted is approved…” And BTW, the news is out that Cardinal Bertone is preparing a letter for the Jews in which he will say that the new Good Friday prayer is not a call for conversion or proselytism and that all salvation, including that of Israel, is in God’s hands.
reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL174472420080317?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

 

[DustinsDad]

…And BTW, the news is out that Cardinal Bertone is preparing a letter for the Jews in which he will say that the new Good Friday prayer is not a call for conversion or proselytism and that all salvation, including that of Israel, is in God’s hands.
reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL174472420080317?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

If there is “no call for conversion” because “all salvation is in God’s hands” - then why was there the great commission? There’s a logical fallacy in this train of thought.

It’s not either or, it’s both and.

If anyone says Jews don’t need to convert to Christ to be saved, that person is wrong. Don’t matter who they are or what hat they wear. This is scary stuff actually, let’s see what comes of it.

Peace in Christ,

DustinsDad

 

[bobzills]

I don’t think that you can prove that there is salvation outside the Church any more than you can prove that 1+1 =3

If Eastern Orthodox are not saved, then why are they allowed to received Holy Communion in a Catholic Church, without converting to Catholicism? Why does the Catholic Church allow the reception of Holy Communion by those who are not saved?
See the Code of Canon Law (1983) Canon 844, sections 2,3, and 4. Also, see the book by Pope Benedict (Ratzinger): Pilgrim Fellowship of faith, p.232.

 

[louey]

If Eastern Orthodox are not saved, then why are they allowed to received Holy Communion in a Catholic Church, without converting to Catholicism? Why does the Catholic Church allow the reception of Holy Communion by those who are not saved?
See the Code of Canon Law (1983) Canon 844, sections 2,3, and 4. Also, see the book by Pope Benedict (Ratzinger): Pilgrim Fellowship of faith, p.232.

Well Bobzills, are you “waking up”? You certainly are “seeing” things the way they truly are in the VII sect. Ratzinger is a heretic, one only has to read his book’s. A heretic can not be the Pope. Again, I do not not know of any Catholic bishop’s. I know of many bishop’s who are in communion with Ratzinger; they are not Catholic, by association alone. One can not remain Catholic and be a part of the VII sect under it’s hierarchy, one who adheres to the VII sect is outside the Catholic Church.

 

[Dauphin]

If Eastern Orthodox are not saved, then why are they allowed to received Holy Communion in a Catholic Church, without converting to Catholicism? Why does the Catholic Church allow the reception of Holy Communion by those who are not saved?
See the Code of Canon Law (1983) Canon 844, sections 2,3, and 4. Also, see the book by Pope Benedict (Ratzinger): Pilgrim Fellowship of faith, p.232.

Here’s the Canon under discussion:

ß3 Catholic ministers may lawfully administer the sacraments of penance, the Eucharist and anointing of the sick to members of the eastern Churches not in full communion with the catholic Church, if they spontaneously ask for them and are properly disposed. The same applies to members of other Churches which the Apostolic See judges to be in the same position as the aforesaid eastern Churches so far as the sacraments are concerned.

This does not mention the salvation of Eastern Orthodox. The Catholic faith holds that the Eastern Orthodox are not saved unless in a state of purely material, and not formal, heresy.

Being “properly disposed” would of course entail a rejection of Eastern Orthodox errors, and a full acknowledgement of the Catholic faith. Proper disposition involves being in a state of grace, which is only possible if one is not in a state of formal heresy.

 

[Dauphin]

Well Bobzills, are you “waking up”? You certainly are “seeing” things the way they truly are in the VII sect. Ratzinger is a heretic, one only has to read his book’s. A heretic can not be the Pope. Again, I do not not know of any Catholic bishop’s. I know of many bishop’s who are in communion with Ratzinger; they are not Catholic, by association alone. One can not remain Catholic and be a part of the VII sect under it’s hierarchy, one who adheres to the VII sect is outside the Catholic Church.

Pope Benedict’s books may not be perfect, but I have yet to come across anything heretical in his writings. And yes, I have seen what the “Holy Family Monastery” has put out.

I have seen nothing that could convince me to leave the Catholic Church.

 

[Dauphin]

Why ask me? Why not ask the Pope or Cardinal Bertone, who is second to the Pope as Vatican Secretary of State? And remember, according to Pope St. Felix III: “An error which is not resisted is approved…” And BTW, the news is out that Cardinal Bertone is preparing a letter for the Jews in which he will say that the new Good Friday prayer is not a call for conversion or proselytism and that all salvation, including that of Israel, is in God’s hands.
reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL174472420080317?feedType=RSS&feedName=topNews&rpc=22&sp=true

Hopefully, the good Cardinal will recommend that the prayer be strengthened, so that there may be no ambiguity. I’m sure he knows that no one outside the Church is saved. In the meantime, I don’t trust a single word in the media. I’m going to read precisely what the Cardinal has to say, and not some idiotic account from some tabloid-style agency.

When I say the prayer, I will be calling for the conversion of Jews. I will be asking that they may acknowledge Jesus Christ as savior and enter His Church. This is* exactly* what the prayer calls for.

That being said, I’m continually flabbergasted by the Vatican’s obsession with Jews. I just don’t get it. Why don’t we ignore them when they ask us to change our faith? What purpose can “dialogue” have if it’s not to convert them? Why is “mutual respect” seen by some as more important than salvation?

 

[cynic]

What kind of a God allows people to live with no chance of salvation? A God who will’s all to be saved, a God who loves all, created all, a God who is most Just, Most Merciful, Most Compassionate…it is a God who know’s the hearts of men, and knows who will and will not respond to His grace. One day all will know the Justice, and Mercy of the One True God. And every knee shall bend…

so God put the reprobate in parts of the world where he knew they wouldn’t hear the Gospel. So for 1500 years the elect existed solely in Europe and Near East, and then suddenly when missionaries started travelling to other parts of the globe, elect individuals began to born there. Right.

If not, then the opportunity of salvation comes through chance, being born in the right time and place, and where is the justice and mercy in that?