Who can go to heaven?

  • Thread starter Thread starter goodactor
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
louey said:
Catharina, is not Jesus going to come to judge the living and the dead? He came into this world as savior, however, when he comes again, he will come as JUDGE. And again I refer you to the infallible prouncement of the Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino; 1441: “The most Holy Roman Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

What part of this prouncement do you not understand about who are NOT SAVED? Crystal Clear to all you have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Click to expand...
I completely understand and agree that salvation is for those within the Church. No doubt about it. Do I believe that God will find there are some who might never have heard the Christian message of salvation preached with love - who nonetheless pop up within the Church on the last day? Of course - because the Church teaches me that. Baptism of water, fire desire - each with the complement of the Holy Spirit, gains those places for men. What don’t you understand about the teaching on Baptism, louey? Also why do you even care since you have voluntarily broken with the chair of Peter? (It’s NOT empty.)
 
louey said:
Catharina, is not Jesus going to come to judge the living and the dead? He came into this world as savior, however, when he comes again, he will come as JUDGE. And again I refer you to the infallible prouncement of the Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino; 1441: “The most Holy Roman Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

What part of this prouncement do you not understand about who are NOT SAVED? Crystal Clear to all you have eyes to see and ears to hear.
Click to expand...
Well, you would seem to have a problem as the Church has stated, regarding Mulsims: “The Church’s relationship with muslims . The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator , in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham , and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” (CCC 1994 p. 223).

This seems to be in direct opposition to the infalliable doctrine you quoted.
 
Valke2 said:
Well, you would seem to have a problem as the Church has stated, regarding Mulsims: “The Church’s relationship with muslims . The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator , in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham , and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” (CCC 1994 p. 223).

This seems to be in direct opposition to the infalliable doctrine you quoted.
Click to expand...
Imagine that, and what should that tell us in regards to fact that the Church can never teach contrary to what it has taught infallibly.
:confused:
 
catharina said:
I completely understand and agree that salvation is for those within the Church. No doubt about it. Do I believe that God will find there are some who might never have heard the Christian message of salvation preached with love - who nonetheless pop up within the Church on the last day? Of course - because the Church teaches me that. Baptism of water, fire desire - each with the complement of the Holy Spirit, gains those places for men. What don’t you understand about the teaching on Baptism, louey? Also why do you even care since you have voluntarily broken with the chair of Peter? (It’s NOT empty.)
Click to expand...
I have no idea what you mean by, “who nonetheless pop up within the Church on the last day” How could someone “pop up” on the last day and be saved if they never heard the Gospel? If they never heard the Gospel and died as a pagan, they went to hell. Do you not understand that all those who die in original and actual sin descend into hell? This is Dogma. There is no remission of sin outside the Catholic Church, nor is there sanctifying grace outside the Church…Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctum, 1302: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation NOR REMISSION OF SIN…" And you do not understand the fallible doctrine of theologians who taught baptism of desire to which I believe you are talking about, only spoke about CATECHUMENS who died before recieving baptism, which is not desire that saved them, but perfect contrition. That is the teaching, and it does not extend to those who did not believe in the Catholic faith. The Church has ONLY defined, and prounced dogmatically the absolute need for baptism of water (fluminis) as stated in the Council of Trent and other Councils.
CANON II.-If any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema.

CANON V.-If any one saith, that baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema.

Metaphorical water, condemned…ie baptism of “desire”
 
Valke2 said:
Well, you would seem to have a problem as the Church has stated, regarding Mulsims: “The Church’s relationship with muslims . The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator , in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham , and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” (CCC 1994 p. 223).

This seems to be in direct opposition to the infalliable doctrine you quoted.
Click to expand...
Two heresies in this one statement; first there is no salvation for a muslim, unless he converts to the Catholic faith, and second, the muslims do not worship the one true God, they deny Jesus Christ, they do not nor ever did worship the God of Abraham, for if they did, they would know and love Jesus Christ in the Trinity, and we would be calling them Catholic’s. Again wake up, this is not Catholic doctrine, this is heresy. Either the Catholic Church “had it all wrong” for almost 2000 years, they were not the one true Church, and the infallible prouncements were nothing but lies, or the VII documents are heretical. I believe the gates of hell can not prevail against the Church, therefore I reject the Vii council as false, as truth cannot change. Jesus yesterday, today,and forever. The Catholic faith remains today in a remnant. It is not found in the church of Rome.
 
louey said:
Two heresies in this one statement; first there is no salvation for a muslim, unless he converts to the Catholic faith, and second, the muslims do not worship the one true God, they deny Jesus Christ, they do not nor ever did worship the God of Abraham, for if they did, they would know and love Jesus Christ in the Trinity, and we would be calling them Catholic’s. Again wake up, this is not Catholic doctrine, this is heresy.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
stmaria said:
louey;3369730:
Not heresy. Just a badly written ambiguous statement take from Vatican II. The “plan” of salvaton for the Muslims is to believe in Christ as saviour, be baptized and join the Catholic Church. The second part, again is ambigious. Jesus Christ will judge on the last day. Muslims do not believe that. But they do believe thye will be judged on the last day. It was clearly written not to offend the Muslims. Heresy no. Badly written yes…
louey you seem to be the most radical of the sedevacantists. I take it you do not believe in invincible ignorance?
Even sedes don’t agree with each other on that one.
Click to expand...
Hello Stmaria, you did not address the part of the statement which specifically is clear, not ambiguous…Vatican II, Nostra Aetate: “3. The Church has also high esteem for the Muslims. They worship God, who is one, living and subsistent, merciful and almighty, the Creator of heaven and earth…”
Catholic’s do not esteem the false religion of Muslims, they do not worship the Triune God, they worship a false god. They DENY Jesus Christ.
Vatican II, Lumen Gentium: “16. The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.” AND TOGETHER WITH US THEY ADORE THE ONE, MERCIFUL GOD…" BLASPHEMY. Catholic’s do not worship the same God as the Muslim’s…not ambiguous, no smoke and mirror’s. Out and out heresy. And JPII taught the same…John Paul II, May 5, 1999: “Muslims, who ‘together with us adore the one, merciful God …We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings His creatures to their perfection.’” (General Audience, May 5.)

Just one of many heresies that came out of the mouth of JPII.
Click to expand...
 
louey and maria. whether you like it or not (or even believe it) I learned about the Baptisms of water, desire and fire in 1950 in a Catholic school. I don’t know what either of you was doing (if anything) in 1950 but I assure you this teaching did not pop up from Vatican II. How would such “non-believers” appear (pop up) among the saved on the last day? They’d be among the saved. through a form of Baptism that did not involve catechesis or Baptism of water (and the Holy Spirit) in their lifetimes. You can profess your ignorance if you choose but don’t pretend and allege that this teaching sprung from Vatican II. It didn’t.
 
louey said:
Two heresies in this one statement; first there is no salvation for a muslim, unless he converts to the Catholic faith, and second, the muslims do not worship the one true God, they deny Jesus Christ, they do not nor ever did worship the God of Abraham, for if they did, they would know and love Jesus Christ in the Trinity, and we would be calling them Catholic’s. Again wake up, this is not Catholic doctrine, this is heresy. Either the Catholic Church “had it all wrong” for almost 2000 years, they were not the one true Church, and the infallible prouncements were nothing but lies, or the VII documents are heretical. I believe the gates of hell can not prevail against the Church, therefore I reject the Vii council as false, as truth cannot change. Jesus yesterday, today,and forever. The Catholic faith remains today in a remnant. It is not found in the church of Rome.
Click to expand...
ok. So you don’t listen to your pope when he says something you disagree with. That’s ok with me. If just makes you a Catholic that doesn’t believe in papal authority. I suppose this would be similar to someone saying abortion is not murder because it is not life at the moment of conception and Popes that have said otherwise are wrong.
 
Valke2 said:
ok. So you don’t listen to your pope when he says something you disagree with. That’s ok with me. If just makes you a Catholic that doesn’t believe in papal authority. I suppose this would be similar to someone saying abortion is not murder because it is not life at the moment of conception and Popes that have said otherwise are wrong.
Click to expand...
I believe in papal authority, absolutely. I also know a heretic can not be pope. One does not follow a heretic. I believe you are alluding to the fact the Church has not defined when the soul is infused in the body; when does life really begin? Abortion is a mortal sin, it is a part of law written upon each man’s heart.
 
louey said:
I believe in papal authority, absolutely. I also know a heretic can not be pope. One does not follow a heretic. I believe you are alluding to the fact the Church has not defined when the soul is infused in the body; when does life really begin? Abortion is a mortal sin, it is a part of law written upon each man’s heart.
Click to expand...
Eugene IV was declared a heretic for at least 10 years. BUt you obviously don’t question his Bull
 
Valke2 said:
Eugene IV was declared a heretic for at least 10 years. BUt you obviously don’t question his Bull
Click to expand...
So what is your point? Eugene IV was not a heretic, and the Catholic Church accepts this dogmatic definition; as one can see by the history,it was fought for at a price. The Council of Florence is a legitimate Council of the Catholic Church.
 
Valke2 said:
ok. So you don’t listen to your pope when he says something you disagree with. That’s ok with me. If just makes you a Catholic that doesn’t believe in papal authority. I suppose this would be similar to someone saying abortion is not murder because it is not life at the moment of conception and Popes that have said otherwise are wrong.
Click to expand...
Hi, Valke. As you noticed there is a certain cluster of posters who choose to revile recent Popes who are not to their liking. The claims of those in the cluster mean nothing to those who are faithful enough to celebrate and to be obedient to the chair of Peter.
 
My original Qeustion was is there a canon law(s) on other groups going to heaven if they are preached the Gospel but because of deep upbringing and even brain washing to a degree do not accept Christ Musim or say a Mormon but upon death would christ appear before them and if thier heart was not hardened can the go to heaven? I am looking for the official stance from CANON LAW not opinions please:D
 
goodactor said:
My original Qeustion was is there a canon law(s) on other groups going to heaven if they are preached the Gospel but because of deep upbringing and even brain washing to a degree do not accept Christ Musim or say a Mormon but upon death would christ appear before them and if thier heart was not hardened can the go to heaven? I am looking for the official stance from CANON LAW not opinions please:D
Click to expand...
Canon law would not answer such questions.
Canon law is the body of laws and regulations made by or adopted by ecclesiastical authority, for the government of the Christian organization and its members.
Click to expand...
Canon Law
Click to expand...
These may be of help.

Catechism of the Catholic Church , Catholic Answers on the question and Particular Judgment.

Adam
 
catharina said:
Hi, Valke. As you noticed there is a certain cluster of posters who choose to revile recent Popes who are not to their liking. The claims of those in the cluster mean nothing to those who are faithful enough to celebrate and to be obedient to the chair of Peter.
Click to expand...
Got it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top