Who can go to heaven?

[louey]

OK. So then it’s very simple. Why would that member of this forum state that only faithful members of the RCC can go to heaven if that isn’t the teaching of the church? That seems so harsh. I hope it isn’t the teaching of the Catholic Church.

I believe I am the member you are referring to. Here is what the Catholic Church has dogmatically defined 3 times, and must be believed by all Catholic’s. Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215: “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.”

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctum, 1302: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation nor remission of sin…”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino, 1441: “The most Holy Roman Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

Many on this forum reject, or water down the dogma; No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church, rendering this dogma meaningless. It does not change the infallible pronouncements; as one must understand AS WRITTEN, (my emphasis is not for you, but to other’s who explain it away) Dogma’s are Universal, and are for all times for all people.

 

[louey]

In other words, the infallible Supreme head of the Roman Catholic Church and the Vicar of Christ, is speaking heresy? If that is the case, is there any living Catholic today, except for yourself, who does not espouse heresy of some sort?

To explain this to you, I would have to break a rule on this forum. Sedevacantism is banned from discussion. I will say that a manifest heretic can not be the Pope. No heretic can can be the Head of the Catholic Church, as he is not a member of the Church.

 

[Namesake]

I believe I am the member you are referring to. Here is what the Catholic Church has dogmatically defined 3 times, and must be believed by all Catholic’s. Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215: “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.”

Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctum, 1302: “With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation nor remission of sin…”

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino, 1441: “The most Holy Roman Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.”

Many on this forum reject, or water down the dogma; No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church, rendering this dogma meaningless. It does not change the infallible pronouncements; as one must understand AS WRITTEN, (my emphasis is not for you, but to other’s who explain it away) Dogma’s are Universal, and are for all times for all people.

So then, what becomes of people who are just not able to be Catholic due to disability? That is to say that they can’t possibly accept all of the teachings of the Church because of some sort of limiting factor, like mental acuity or capacity or cultural deficiency, etc? There must be a mechanism for such unfortunate people to receive salvation, no? I mean, they didn’t actually reject God as much as they were not in a position to accept all of the intellectual concepts of the Church, like not worshiping the Blessed Virgin yet venerating her. If they worship the Blessed Virgin because they are incapable of discerning the right approach, are they outside the Church and doomed therefore?

Isn’t it good enough that they might be able to approximate faithfulness to the best of their ability?

 

[louey]

I get confused. If a person cannot believe in some important teaching of the Church, like transubstantiation, can that person really be Catholic and have a chance at salvation if there is no salvation outside the Church?

Or are there gradations that are allowed? If a person has never head the gospel message they apparently can achieve salvation. So then, if a person has heard the message but is incapable of understanding it can they receive salvation?

If they can, what cause of their failure to accept the teachings are allowed? IQ? Personality? Biological accident? Cultural issues? I think it’s quite confusing.

Doesn’t the Church teach that a person does not sin unless they are aware of their sin. If you don’t understand the very concept of sin, you cannot sin?

You also must keep in mind that every man is born with the natural law written upon there hearts. The natural law is the 7 moral commandments and the the ability to know there is a God, who punishes and rewards, the ability to reject false God’s and false religions. God did not create men without reason, and he did not create them void of not knowing the difference between what is a sinful and what is not; stealing, adultery, ect…the ten commandments. Culpability is determined by judges and juries in this world; God is judge, ultimate judge of culpablity.

 

[Namesake]

You also must keep in mind that every man is born with the natural law written upon there hearts. The natural law is the 7 moral commandments and the the ability to know there is a God, who punishes and rewards, the ability to reject false God’s and false religions. God did not create men without reason, and he did not create them void of not knowing the difference between what is a sinful and what is not; stealing, adultery, ect…the ten commandments. Culpability is determined by judges and juries in this world; God is judge, ultimate judge of culpablity.

Are you actually saying that humans are born with a system of morality and ethics in place?

 

[louey]

So then, what becomes of people who are just not able to be Catholic due to disability? That is to say that they can’t possibly accept all of the teachings of the Church because of some sort of limiting factor, like mental acuity or capacity or cultural deficiency, etc? There must be a mechanism for such unfortunate people to receive salvation, no? I mean, they didn’t actually reject God as much as they were not in a position to accept all of the intellectual concepts of the Church, like not worshiping the Blessed Virgin yet venerating her. If they worship the Blessed Virgin because they are incapable of discerning the right approach, are they outside the Church and doomed therefore?

Isn’t it good enough that they might be able to approximate faithfulness to the best of their ability?

What you must understand is the ability to understand is not the issue per say, it is that you assent to the belief in the Catholic faith to best of your understanding, as Dauphne explained it. For example, a faithful member of the Church may not understand that Mary was born Immaculate, and ascended into heaven body and soul by intellect, but he believes because it is dogma; because he holds the faith, which teaches he must believe. He assents his will and understanding to the Church. I do not know if you are Catholic, it seems to me that you are not, however, you have expressed that you can not believe that anyone outside the Catholic Church is not saved. Now, if you are Catholic,one believes the dogma there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, whether or not you think it’s fair, or just, or whatever your reason may be, one believes it without a doubt, as you are assenting to God’s will and what he has demanded we must believe. To deny or even doubt what God demands to be believed is a grave sin.

 

[louey]

Are you actually saying that humans are born with a system of morality and ethics in place?

Absolutely. Please read the bible scripture. Romans 2

 

[da_nolo]

Only faithful Catholic’s go to heaven.

Only those whom God feels fit. aye faithful Catholics be amognst that group, but whom are we to Judge? Therefore let the King of Kings, Priest of Priests Judge the people of God, whom are not just one person nor one group of people…but the entire globe. It is our ability to spread the Word and so we carry our Cross and spread that Word. There is no ability of being faithful without carring your Cross.

 

[da_nolo]

Absolutely. Please read the bible scripture. Romans 2

would also fall into the making of Man in the face of, in the image of God yea?

 

[bobzills]

Now, if you are Catholic,one believes the dogma there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church, whether or not you think it’s fair, or just, or whatever your reason may be, one believes it without a doubt, as you are assenting to God’s will and what he has demanded we must believe. To deny or even doubt what God demands to be believed is a grave sin.

Catholics in today’s Church believe that Protestants, Jews, Mormons, Muslims, and Hindus can be saved. Give us the name of any living Catholic bishop, in good standing with today’s Catholic Church and with today’s Catholic Pope, who does not believe this.

 

[Dauphin]

Catholics in today’s Church believe that Protestants, Jews, Mormons, Muslims, and Hindus can be saved. Give us the name of any living Catholic bishop, in good standing with today’s Catholic Church and with today’s Catholic Pope, who does not believe this.

The Church teaches that these people can be saved if they are suffering from invincible ignorance and belong to the Church in voto, or through a sacramental baptism.

 

[louey]

Only those whom God feels fit. aye faithful Catholics be amognst that group, but whom are we to Judge? Therefore let the King of Kings, Priest of Priests Judge the people of God, whom are not just one person nor one group of people…but the entire globe. It is our ability to spread the Word and so we carry our Cross and spread that Word. There is no ability of being faithful without carring your Cross.

"He who believes and is baptised will be saved…he who believes not is already condemned. Truth is not relative, it is absolute. Jesus founded one Church, One faith, and there is only one Lord. Saving Truth is only found in the Catholic Church. No other faith will save a man. Only the Catholic faithful will be saved. This is not the doctrine of man, it is the doctrine of Truth Himself; Jesus Christ. Believe.

 

[louey]

The Church teaches that these people can be saved if they are suffering from invincible ignorance and belong to the Church in voto, or through a sacramental baptism.

The Catholic Church does not teach this doctrine. You are being deceived. “Seek and you shall find”

 

[Dauphin]

The Catholic Church does not teach this doctrine. You are being deceived. “Seek and you shall find”

The Church I know has condemned feenyism.

If St. Robert Bellarmine (a Doctor of the Church) could believe in baptism of desire, then it’s good enough for me. And guess what - St. Bellarmine has been declared a Saint. That’s an infallible definition that the person in question has attained salvation. So I’m not the least bit worried for my soul in adhering to the idea of baptism of desire.

If the Church and I turn out to be wrong, then so be it, but it is clear from the dogmatic decisions of the Church herself, that adhering to this belief is not a grave sin. As such, it cannot be deemed a heresy.

 

[louey]

The Church I know has condemned feenyism.

If St. Robert Bellarmine (a Doctor of the Church) could believe in baptism of desire, then it’s good enough for me. And guess what - St. Bellarmine has been declared a Saint. That’s an infallible definition that the person in question has attained salvation. So I’m not the least bit worried for my soul in adhering to the idea of baptism of desire.

If the Church and I turn out to be wrong, then so be it, but it is clear from the dogmatic decisions of the Church herself, that adhering to this belief is not a grave sin. As such, it cannot be deemed a heresy./QUOTE

Dauphin, I strongly suggest you read the allowable opinions in regards to baptism of desire. Baptism of desire is a doctrine written by some saints, as you have already noted, the opinion is not infallible, it is a fallible opinion of men, and it did not extend to those who did not believe in the cCatholic faith. The doctrine is speaking of CATECHUMENS who died before receiving sacramental baptism. Also, canonizations are not infallible; they are of pious belief, and although not infallible, it is a sin against charity to not believe what the Church has declared in regards to one who has died, and has lived a pious and exemplary life in the Catholic Church. Canonizations are not part of the deposit of faith, or divine revelation which ended with the death of the last apostle. The scope of infallibility defined at Vatican 1 is limited to faith and morals. Canonizations are not a matter of faith and morals.

 

[Dauphin]

Dauphin, I strongly suggest you read the allowable opinions in regards to baptism of desire. Baptism of desire is a doctrine written by some saints, as you have already noted, the opinion is not infallible, it is a fallible opinion of men, and it did not extend to those who did not believe in the cCatholic faith. The doctrine is speaking of CATECHUMENS who died before receiving sacramental baptism. Also, canonizations are not infallible; they are of pious belief, and although not infallible, it is a sin against charity to not believe what the Church has declared in regards to one who has died, and has lived a pious and exemplary life in the Catholic Church. Canonizations are not part of the deposit of faith, or divine revelation which ended with the death of the last apostle. The scope of infallibility defined at Vatican 1 is limited to faith and morals. Canonizations are not a matter of faith and morals.

If St. Robert Bellarmine is in hell, then that’s precisely where I’m going. I’m willing to bet my salvation that baptism of desire extends to those who suffer from invincible ignorance. God can confer baptismal grace if there exists an implicit desire for baptism.

If all these saints and doctors of the Church who accepted baptism of desire were wrong, then the smoke of Satan entered the Church way before Vatican II.

I’m also quite certain that the canonization of a Saint, at the very least, requires full religious submission of intellect and will since it is an act of the universal and ordinary Magisterium

As such, you can’t tell me that St. Robert Bellarmine is in hell. That would be a sin on your part. By extension, you can’t tell me that baptism of desire is a hersesy, since the church requires you to hold with FULL SUBMISSION of intellect and will that St. Robert Bellarmine is in heaven. The same St. Robert Bellarmine who was a doctor of the Church and who never recanted his ideas on baptism of desire. He knew exactly what he was saying and he held to it to his deathbed, along with many other saints.

 

[louey]

If St. Robert Bellarmine is in hell, then that’s precisely where I’m going. I’m willing to bet my salvation that baptism of desire extends to those who suffer from invincible ignorance. God can confer baptismal grace if there exists an implicit desire for baptism.

If all these saints and doctors of the Church who accepted baptism of desire were wrong, then the smoke of Satan entered the Church way before Vatican II.

I’m also quite certain that the canonization of a Saint, at the very least, requires full religious submission of intellect and will since it is an act of the universal and ordinary Magisterium

As such, you can’t tell me that St. Robert Bellarmine is in hell. That would be a sin on your part. By extension, you can’t tell me that baptism of desire is a hersesy, since the church requires you to hold with FULL SUBMISSION of intellect and will that St. Robert Bellarmine is in heaven. The same St. Robert Bellarmine who was a doctor of the Church and who never recanted his ideas on baptism of desire. He knew exactly what he was saying and he held to it to his deathbed, along with many other saints.

Dauphin, again, I strongly suggest you read the doctrine of some saints concerning baptism of desire. You will find that they all adhere to the dogma declared in the Athanasian Creed; which is that one must have an EXPLICIT faith in Jesus, the Trinity and incarnation. One MUST hold the Catholic in order to be saved, whole and inviolate. Also, baptism of desire is per se not the “desire” that may save a man, it is perfect contrition. One can not ascertain the hidden heart, only God can “see” the heart. It is impossible for a man, unless revealed directly from God to know a man’s heart. Canonization’s are based on human data, human observations and human perspectives, all fallible information. Again, I do not say that one can dismiss what the Church has said about declaring a person a saint, as it is done for the edification of the Church, but also one must keep in mind that even saints are fallible human beings and make mistakes, errors. We do not cease to be brother’s and sisters because of this, as love and charity for one another is what we are demanded to strive for. Heresy separates individuals from the Church, and you are are correct that it is not heresy to hold the opinion of baptism of desire as defined by the saints. Baptism of desire is and was never a unanimous held doctrine, as many saints did not believe in baptism of desire. Baptism of desire is not a part of the ordinary magisterium, as to be part of the ordinary magisterium the doctrine must be held unanimously by all the doctor’s of the Church. And it is most certainly not a part of the solemn magisterium. There is No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church. This dogma is foundational. All other doctrines “crumble” if this one doctrine is thrown out, watered down, or rendered meaningless. Why Catholic? I want to have a hope for salvation; that is why. Please, do not even suggest for one second that I ever stated or believe that saint Bellarmine is in hell. I or any other Catholic would not ever say that. I merely pointed out that canonizations in an of themselves are not infallible. They are of pious belief, and are part of the ordinary magisterium, and it could be a mortal sin against charity to believe otherwise.

 

[louey]

If St. Robert Bellarmine is in hell, then that’s precisely where I’m going. I’m willing to bet my salvation that baptism of desire extends to those who suffer from invincible ignorance. God can confer baptismal grace if there exists an implicit desire for baptism.

If all these saints and doctors of the Church who accepted baptism of desire were wrong, then the smoke of Satan entered the Church way before Vatican II.

I’m also quite certain that the canonization of a Saint, at the very least, requires full religious submission of intellect and will since it is an act of the universal and ordinary Magisterium

As such, you can’t tell me that St. Robert Bellarmine is in hell. That would be a sin on your part. By extension, you can’t tell me that baptism of desire is a hersesy, since the church requires you to hold with FULL SUBMISSION of intellect and will that St. Robert Bellarmine is in heaven. The same St. Robert Bellarmine who was a doctor of the Church and who never recanted his ideas on baptism of desire. He knew exactly what he was saying and he held to it to his deathbed, along with many other saints.

Dauphin, again, I strongly suggest you read the doctrine of some saints concerning baptism of desire. You will find that they all adhere to the dogma declared in the Athanasian Creed; which is that one must have an EXPLICIT faith in Jesus, the Trinity and incarnation. One MUST hold the Catholic in order to be saved, whole and inviolate. Also, baptism of desire is per se not the “desire” that may save a man, it is perfect contrition. One can not ascertain the hidden heart, only God can “see” the heart. It is impossible for a man, unless revealed directly from God to know a man’s heart. Canonization’s are based on human data, human observations and human perspectives, all fallible information. Again, I do not say that one can dismiss what the Church has said about declaring a person a saint, as it is done for the edification of the Church, but also one must keep in mind that even saints are fallible human beings and make mistakes, errors. We do not cease to be brother’s and sisters because of this, as love and charity for one another is what we are demanded to strive for. Heresy separates individuals from the Church, and you are are correct that it is not heresy to hold the opinion of baptism of desire as defined by the saints. Baptism of desire was never a unanimously held doctrine, as many saints did not believe in baptism of desire. Baptism of desire is not a part of the ordinary magisterium, as to be part of the ordinary magisterium the doctrine must be held unanimously by all the doctor’s of the Church. And it is most certainly not a part of the solemn magisterium. There is No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church. This dogma is foundational. All other doctrines “crumble” if this one doctrine is thrown out, watered down, or rendered meaningless. Why Catholic? I want to have a hope for salvation; that is why.

 

[bobzills]

There is No Salvation Outside the Catholic Church. This dogma is foundational. All other doctrines “crumble” if this one doctrine is thrown out, watered down, or rendered meaningless.

Can you give me the name of one bishop in the Catholic Church today who believes and teaches that all Muslims or all Jews or all Protestants will go to hell?

 

[louey]

Can you give me the name of one bishop in the Catholic Church today who believes and teaches that all Muslims or all Jews or all Protestants will go to hell?

I do not know of any Catholic Bishop’s.