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truetofaith
Guest
A masterpiece made by God, Himself.
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HelenRose
Guest
Hell is the absence of God. We are given the choice of freely choosing or rejecting God. Throughout our lives here and now, we are given the opportunity to change our choice. Once we have died, the choice is permanent.
We stand before God, with full knowledge, with the choice we have made.
How many times have you heard someone say, “I would rather go to Hell than to …”
The decision made to reject God is, “I would rather go to Hell than to love and obey you.”
This was the decision Satan made.
God does not force us into heaven any more than he forces us to love Him here on Earth.
The absence of God is the absence of the desire to be with Him. The absence of God is the absence of all that is good. The absence of God is a choice.
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DCNBILL
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If my wife is any authority, anyone who does not put the toilet seat down.
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frangiuliano115
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Of course. People who can say “I’d rather go to hell than…” don’t believe in God and don’t understand what they’re doing. Choice is everything. You choose God or you choose the other one. There’s no inbetween.
Fran
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Read the link. can’t match it up to what you say.If my wife is any authority, anyone who does not put the toilet seat down.
You say:
I wanted to post it full here because I’ve noticed a tendency among Catholics to defend the existence of Hell, but try to soften it by suggesting that “God’s hands are tied” and that going to Hell is entirely the will of the sinner. For the edification of anyone interested:
I don’t see the “softening of the existence of hell” by saying that God’s hands are tied.
It’s the truth. We send ourselves there. This is exactly what the link is saying. The writer is saying that maybe HE wouldn’t send everyone to hell who deserves to go but only because he’s not as JUST as God is and is not as sensitive to sin as God is.
The writer also says something about the wil ro repent is in itself a grace and that Calvin looms around the corner. I’ve heard this before and disagree wholeheartedly. As the poster just above said, and I concur, it’s all A CHOICE. It’s OUR choice. To follow God, that is.
Fran
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eazyduzit
Guest
I have heard many people state that Hell is the absence of God, however I find that nowhere in the bible. What the bible says is that Hell was created for Satan and his angels (demons).
Then why should people go there? Does God send people there? Actually He doesn’t. Then how do they get there? Well you see the bible reveals that there are 2 kingdoms, the kingdom of light and the kingdom of darkness. Every person must be in one of these. There is nothing else. You can’t be independent. Because of sin, everyone is born in the kingdom of darkness. The person will simply remain there unless at some point he chooses to accept the Gospel and trust Christ. At death we shed the body and find ourselfs in the spiritual dimension. Then depending on the kingdom we have belonged to in life, either Satan’s demons or God’s angels come to escort us to our home, weather heaven or hell.
The absence of God would be outer darkness, but you can’t just hang out there. The demons will come to claim you. If you don’t belong to God, the you belong to them.
I hope this helps to demystify hell.
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fred_conty
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Who deserves to be in Hell? Obviously Satan.
Who else?
There must be some because if there isn’t anyone, then we are all “once saved always saved” people. Which in turn means we can do anything we darn please to satisfy our every wish. We may bypass all the sacraments and the church teachings except one … “once saved always saved”. But then again we can drop that too because don’t need anything telling us what we have to do to be saved … salvation is guaranteed.
Tomorrow I’m going to start making my fortune by swindling people out of their money. I’m going to have all I want and have my cake too. At long last I am free … free … free.
And I owe it all to never worrying about hell again because I’m saved permanently. Isn’t that just peachy? Anyone want to join me? What a load off my mind.
And we have so many people worried about sin … how awful. Just forget about all that now because we now have the truth. Just relax and enjoy. “You all” worry too much. Even tho Satan has told us this long ago that there was no hell, it is all our fault for not believing him because he knows best and is just the nicest guy you every want to meet. A very agreeable person when you get to know him. And here we were thinking all along that he was our adversary. How can we every make it up to him. By the way, he said we can forget all about prayer because it is just a waste of our time, and he is concerned that we shouldn’t waste time. Besides since everyone is now guaranteed salvation, what do we need prayer for?
Am I ever glad I found out that I don’t ever deserve to be in hell.
Who else?
There must be some because if there isn’t anyone, then we are all “once saved always saved” people. Which in turn means we can do anything we darn please to satisfy our every wish. We may bypass all the sacraments and the church teachings except one … “once saved always saved”. But then again we can drop that too because don’t need anything telling us what we have to do to be saved … salvation is guaranteed.
Tomorrow I’m going to start making my fortune by swindling people out of their money. I’m going to have all I want and have my cake too. At long last I am free … free … free.
And I owe it all to never worrying about hell again because I’m saved permanently. Isn’t that just peachy? Anyone want to join me? What a load off my mind.
And we have so many people worried about sin … how awful. Just forget about all that now because we now have the truth. Just relax and enjoy. “You all” worry too much. Even tho Satan has told us this long ago that there was no hell, it is all our fault for not believing him because he knows best and is just the nicest guy you every want to meet. A very agreeable person when you get to know him. And here we were thinking all along that he was our adversary. How can we every make it up to him. By the way, he said we can forget all about prayer because it is just a waste of our time, and he is concerned that we shouldn’t waste time. Besides since everyone is now guaranteed salvation, what do we need prayer for?
Am I ever glad I found out that I don’t ever deserve to be in hell.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Yes. What’s that saying? The smartest thing Satan ever did was to convince people he doesn’t exist. Too bad not everyone could be as upset with satan as you are!
I must say, though, that I don’t know of any denomination that teaches that you could sin all you want to.
Someone said that there are denominations that teach that after being saved, you CAN’T sin anymore. Never heard of that either.
Fran
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BornInMarch
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Well said.
Here’s a conversation I refuse to believe happens:
*Jesus: “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.”
Man: “But my whole life I have been a kind and charitable man. I regularly volunteered at the homeless shelter, I have been a devoted husband and a loving father, and I have never committed any horrible sins such as rape or murder. I died from a bad blood transfusion while giving one of my kidneys to a sick boy.”
Jesus: “That is all true, but you also stayed home during Mass one Sunday in 1972.”
Man: “It was my son’s birthday so I wanted to take him fishing.”
Jesus: “Too bad, missing a mass is a mortal sin. I don’t care what’s in your heart, only whether you checked off any of the boxes on my list of mortal sins. No depart from me and suffer unimaginable pain for all eternity, and do so alongside mass-murderers and serial rapists.”*
I believe that Jesus judges us by what’s in our heart, and that only those whose hearts are evil go to Hell. I’m not “rewriting scripture” as some may claim: I have evidence to support me. Read Matthew 25:31-46, also known as “The Sheep and The Goats”. That’s the passage where Jesus explains how he’s going to judge whether people will be saved or dammed.
4 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’
1 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42** For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.**’
44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
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fred_conty
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If this person did this, do you think he would deliberatly miss Mass on Sunday?
And even if he did, he wouldn’t have supernatural sense enough to say he is sorry? That’s a stretch.
We can make up all kinds of situational stories but it dosen’t cut mustard.
“He who hears you hears me”, said Jesus to his Apostles. “What you bind on earth is bound in heaven.” And Jesus didn’t add “only if you feel its right”.
Any Catholic who misses Mass deliberately without just cause is in serious trouble.
Simply because it puts out the life of Christ in the soul. It just takes one, just like it just takes one bullet to put out the natural life of a person.
There are many things we must do not just one or the other. One we must do is to feed the starving. And another is to praise and love God together as his body on earth. Another is to be treat our own bodies and those of other as holy. Another is to respect property and truth.
It is never never ONE good thing that is going to cover all bases and ensure our salvation. There are many challenges handed to us every day that must be met.
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fred_conty
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Yes, believe it. There are those who think this. Many as a matter of fact. I eat lunch with one. He thinks he cannot go to hell and that he is absolutely saved.
And not long ago I heard a priest preach on this same subject and he said the same thing.
Now it is true that there are some who also say this but then on the back end also say that “faith without works is dead.” And I believe this is a quote from the bible, maybe St. James. So they would say that if good works don’t follow then the person never was saved to begin with.
But there are so many who “profess” once saved always saved…period. I guess if I heard it preached to me often enough I might start believing it too. Nice to be Catholic.
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truetofaith
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The first 3 Commandments are the most important…they pertain to God all the others pertain to your neighbor. Jesus called them the 2 greatest commandments.
If they are broken …it is mortal sin.
You leave out Worshiping God…Honoring parents, lies, and sexual sins that are not violent.
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frangiuliano115
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Well Born in March - you’re on one end of the spectrum and Fred Conty is on the other end. It’s not easy speaking about spiritual things. Difficult to find the right words, meanings could be misunderstood.
Let’s look at some scripture.
“Not only those who cry, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven but those who do My Father’s will”.
Mathew 7:21
Some could cry Lord, Lord with the mouth, but they don’t have Jesus in thier heart. Outside actions alone will not save a person. BUT, if that person believes in his heart then, of course, external actions will follow. So that you’ll cry out the name of the Lord and MEAN it.
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frangiuliano115
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TWO
“Come to Me all ye who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Mathew 11:28-30
What makes us be heavy laden? It could be just our daily lives - they might be difficult. It could be sickness, a sick child. A difficult job. Jesus could help us to bear all these difficulties better. But it could also refer to the heavy yoke the Jews were under. The pharisees burdened them with rules and regulations which kept them far from God. This did not help them to get close to God. Sometimes we just have to trust that we are in the hands of the Lord and that he’ll protect us; even in our weak moments. We can abandon God (sin) but He will not abandon us as long as we WANT Him in our life. He’s always ready to forgive us and protect us.
The Prodigal Son. The most beautiful parable Jesus told. He didn’t tell it just to waste His time. The father never abandoned the son, but waited for him to come back home.
There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven. Mathew 12:30.
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That means you deny Him, you don’t want Him in your life, you reject Him. All other sin is forgiveable.
Jesus also says here: Who is not with Me is against Me. A decision must be made as to whom we will serve. We either serve God or we serve satan. If we’re serving God, we’re on God’s side.
And lastly, The Wedding Banquet
Mathew 22:1-14
One guest was not wearing the proper wedding clothes and he was cast out where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth.
What are the proper wedding clothes??
God wants us to be properly dressed. By “putting on” Jesus, by doing all those right things you speak of at the beginning of your post - the best we can, some could do more and others less - but all for the glory to God.
If a person finds freedom in Jesus, it’s nice and good. But God knows the heart and He can’t be fooled. “You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.”
Others feel they have to be very careful and try not to sin. They feel God will punish them for any infraction. And for them, this is the truth - but there is little freedom.
Freedom to sin? No. But think of it. We probably sin at least once an hour. Mean thoughts. Bad feelings. Impolite word. God is perfect. Jesus said we’re to be perfect as our father in heaven is perfect. This is impossible. So He was using God as a measuring stick. Could we measure up? No. So we better hope Jesus is covering for us or no one is making it to heaven.
All I’ve said could be debated because a lot of it probably won’t be understood.
Fran
“Come to Me all ye who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest, for my yoke is easy and my burden is light.”
Mathew 11:28-30
What makes us be heavy laden? It could be just our daily lives - they might be difficult. It could be sickness, a sick child. A difficult job. Jesus could help us to bear all these difficulties better. But it could also refer to the heavy yoke the Jews were under. The pharisees burdened them with rules and regulations which kept them far from God. This did not help them to get close to God. Sometimes we just have to trust that we are in the hands of the Lord and that he’ll protect us; even in our weak moments. We can abandon God (sin) but He will not abandon us as long as we WANT Him in our life. He’s always ready to forgive us and protect us.
The Prodigal Son. The most beautiful parable Jesus told. He didn’t tell it just to waste His time. The father never abandoned the son, but waited for him to come back home.
There is only one sin that cannot be forgiven. Mathew 12:30.
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit. That means you deny Him, you don’t want Him in your life, you reject Him. All other sin is forgiveable.
Jesus also says here: Who is not with Me is against Me. A decision must be made as to whom we will serve. We either serve God or we serve satan. If we’re serving God, we’re on God’s side.
And lastly, The Wedding Banquet
Mathew 22:1-14
One guest was not wearing the proper wedding clothes and he was cast out where there was weeping and gnashing of teeth.
What are the proper wedding clothes??
God wants us to be properly dressed. By “putting on” Jesus, by doing all those right things you speak of at the beginning of your post - the best we can, some could do more and others less - but all for the glory to God.
If a person finds freedom in Jesus, it’s nice and good. But God knows the heart and He can’t be fooled. “You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.”
Others feel they have to be very careful and try not to sin. They feel God will punish them for any infraction. And for them, this is the truth - but there is little freedom.
Freedom to sin? No. But think of it. We probably sin at least once an hour. Mean thoughts. Bad feelings. Impolite word. God is perfect. Jesus said we’re to be perfect as our father in heaven is perfect. This is impossible. So He was using God as a measuring stick. Could we measure up? No. So we better hope Jesus is covering for us or no one is making it to heaven.
All I’ve said could be debated because a lot of it probably won’t be understood.
Fran
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frangiuliano115
Guest
The above is not correct christian theology, Born in March.
I think we already went through this once before.
I fear you won’t understand my post just above this. I mean, you’re the one who doesn’t like lists and, unless I’m mistaken, you just made a list in your post!
Fran
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frangiuliano115
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I’m sorry Fred Conty,
What did the priest say?
I only ask because I’ve been hearing some strange stuff lately too.
Fran
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fred_conty
Guest
This particular priest gave a talk to Catholics on those Christians believing that once saved means always saved. And he stated that it is exactly what a great deal of them believe. And he also said that they did not put any qualifiers on this, that it is exactly this way. He worked this into his talk.
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BornInMarch
Guest
You are mistaken; I only have a problem with lists when people act as though they are the ONLY thing God will take into account when judging a soul.
God has infinite wisdom, infinite intelligence, and infinite understanding (among other things). To say that what is in a person’s heart would have NO baring on where said person ends up just does not make sense to me.
Again, I am basing by belief on this particular subject on Matthew 25:31-46.
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frangiuliano115
Guest
Okay!
Yeah. OSAS is a strange teaching AFAIC.
What if I decide to become christian today and then 10 years from now I decide to abandon God altogether. That’s blaspheming the H.S. The unpardonable sin.
Of course OSAS can’t be true.
So, I was speaking to a Deacon about 3 months ago who told me we’re all saved. This confusion in the church is really starting to bother me. We discussed it for about 30 minutes and he ended up saying that, yes, not all are saved. So??? Why say it???
It’s all words is what I always say. Who can know for sure what anybody means.
Fran
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TK421
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Generally speaking, I don’t think academic confusion has anything to do with it.
It’s not hard to see why people prefer to believe that all people are saved. Hell is inconceivable. It’s the most horrifying concept to be dreamed of, and it is real, and people are there, burning, seething, hating, and sinning, as I write this post. Legions of demons and an unknown number of humans, all with rational souls. It has never been a palatable doctrine at any point in history, least of all for the squeamishness of postmodernist man
He might have had another conversation with somebody that agreed with him, and the discussion would have ended in 5 seconds with a mental pat on each others’ backs.
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