R
romano
Guest
You took the words out of my mouth. I really do wonder where guys like this come from.
"Progress"?.
Hardiharhar!
Who else is sick and tired of people on this board attacking the Church/the Mass?
- Status
You took the words out of my mouth. I really do wonder where guys like this come from.
"Progress"?.
Hardiharhar!
R
romano
Guest
"If we don’t believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don’t believe in it at all." – Noam Chomsky
S
Scotty_PGH
Guest
A
Adonis33
Guest
According to Podo2004’s profile - he just turned 14. I would imagine that his breadth of experience isn’t extremely expansive. So when he say’s things like “the TLM was beautiful - but had no meaning” - bare in mind that he is a child - and probably - through no fault of his own, no real experience with the TLM - or catholic doctrine.
M
msproule
Guest
Fully understood. I am twice his age (and Catholic for only the last seven years) and have no experience with the TLM, either. However, he has been cautioned by many to do some research before broadcasting some of the nonsense he has. Obviously, the advice went unheeded.
P
Podo2004
Guest
and I think you need to adapt to modern times
Podo
D
Dr.Bombay
Guest
You tell 'em! Nothing that happened prior to April 3, 1991 is of any consequence nor should anyone have the least interest in it. Let us forge bravely ahead, constantly looking forward, ignoring the past and ridiculing history!
Let’s all join hands and savor this truly beautiful Lord of the Flies moment. sniff :crying:
M
msproule
Guest
The GIRM was published in 2002, and Redemptionis Sacramentum in 2004. Is that modern enough for you?
Neither of these are very long documents. I suggest you devote an hour or two to read these before you lose all semblance of whatever credibility you have left.
Peace be with you!
Michael
U
usqueadmortem
Guest
ByzCath,
The Lord is Risen!
I grant many traditionalists go overboard, and that is not good at all. But the traditionalist position is a very subtle one that needs to be given plenty of patience.
I sometimes go to the NO where it is done respectably. But the fact is, in my state at least, abuses are the norm in the NO. And bishops don’t seem to care. The church down the street from me bakes altar bread and puts molasses in it. That invalidates the Mass. Oh, people have complained and showed the necessary documents, only to be ignored.
ByzCath, these are common realities in the Western Church that have to be grappled with. I realize the East is in a very different place. And thank God. I also realize that some Westerns haven’t had to deal with this where they live, or don’t know the extent of it at least.
How can one describe the heartwretching sadness we’ve experienced over the past 50 years? It is as if a foreign power has come in and destroyed our churches! There has been too much tragedy in the West, at least in my state, to dismiss the traditionalist position this way. We are not nitpicking over little abuses. We have swallowed so much pain from the destruction of what we hold dear. I can give you plenty of astonishing examples. In our state seminary, immediately after the “reform” of the liturgy, hundreds and hundreds of costly vestments, gold vessels, statues, missals, exquisite altar cards, etc. were ripped out of the sacristy and thrown in the trash. The mound was huge. These things were payed for from sweat and toil of hard working and oftentimes impoverished parishoners who loved their Church so much they found ways to be generous. And this is how they were repayed.
Please do not overlook these things when you feel insulted or challenged.
Usque.
ByzCath:
The Lord is Risen!
I grant many traditionalists go overboard, and that is not good at all. But the traditionalist position is a very subtle one that needs to be given plenty of patience.
I sometimes go to the NO where it is done respectably. But the fact is, in my state at least, abuses are the norm in the NO. And bishops don’t seem to care. The church down the street from me bakes altar bread and puts molasses in it. That invalidates the Mass. Oh, people have complained and showed the necessary documents, only to be ignored.
ByzCath, these are common realities in the Western Church that have to be grappled with. I realize the East is in a very different place. And thank God. I also realize that some Westerns haven’t had to deal with this where they live, or don’t know the extent of it at least.
How can one describe the heartwretching sadness we’ve experienced over the past 50 years? It is as if a foreign power has come in and destroyed our churches! There has been too much tragedy in the West, at least in my state, to dismiss the traditionalist position this way. We are not nitpicking over little abuses. We have swallowed so much pain from the destruction of what we hold dear. I can give you plenty of astonishing examples. In our state seminary, immediately after the “reform” of the liturgy, hundreds and hundreds of costly vestments, gold vessels, statues, missals, exquisite altar cards, etc. were ripped out of the sacristy and thrown in the trash. The mound was huge. These things were payed for from sweat and toil of hard working and oftentimes impoverished parishoners who loved their Church so much they found ways to be generous. And this is how they were repayed.
Please do not overlook these things when you feel insulted or challenged.
Usque.
S
space_ghost
Guest
…i am sick and tired of seeing people in these forums attacking each other:thumbsup:
N
netmilsmom
Guest
space ghost:
I wish people would realize that opinion is opinion. If there is not documentation with it, it is from personal experience. Not everyone here is in America, but I am. I’m used to freedom of speech.
If don’t like chocolate. That’s an opinion.
Some people here jump in with “Chocolate was used in some of the finest drinks of Latin America. Cocoa and Chili powder is the world’s best drink.”
But I say, I still don’t like chocolate and cocoa and chili powder sounds gross.
Tons of documentation is thrown in about Cocoa and Chili powder being a good thing. It doesn’t change that I don’t like it. After a while of being yelled at for being the person who doesn’t think that anyone should drink chocolate and chili powder, I get frustrated and agree. No one should! Just because the Aztecs did it, doesn’t mean it’s good for you. And why undo 1000 years of adding sugar to cocoa, just to seem better than anyone else?
Then I get followed through the threads because I condemned a legitimate drink.
(BTW, this is a metaphor, I do like Chocolate)
I guess some people are just much more important than I am.
I’m just tired.
I wish people would realize that opinion is opinion. If there is not documentation with it, it is from personal experience. Not everyone here is in America, but I am. I’m used to freedom of speech.
If don’t like chocolate. That’s an opinion.
Some people here jump in with “Chocolate was used in some of the finest drinks of Latin America. Cocoa and Chili powder is the world’s best drink.”
But I say, I still don’t like chocolate and cocoa and chili powder sounds gross.
Tons of documentation is thrown in about Cocoa and Chili powder being a good thing. It doesn’t change that I don’t like it. After a while of being yelled at for being the person who doesn’t think that anyone should drink chocolate and chili powder, I get frustrated and agree. No one should! Just because the Aztecs did it, doesn’t mean it’s good for you. And why undo 1000 years of adding sugar to cocoa, just to seem better than anyone else?
Then I get followed through the threads because I condemned a legitimate drink.
(BTW, this is a metaphor, I do like Chocolate)
I guess some people are just much more important than I am.
P
palmas85
Guest
I get tired of the arguments and bashing too. But I remember what happened after Vatican II. Maybe some people don’t and need to be reminded. Remember this was the time of Viet Nam, Hait Ashbury, Woodstock etc.
The Sisters moved out of the Convents, changed their habits to mostly civilian clothes, and most stopped teaching. Those that did teach seemed more interested in getting us involved in social causes than teaching.
Priests started to preach about the immorality of the war, and the plight of the poor. We as young people were encouraged to use civil disobedience to make changes in society. We were encouraged to attend anti war rallys, to expand our minds and horizons through experimentation. We were told explicitly that the Catholicism of our fathers was in error, and had to be changed, violently if necessary. The true and only valid mission of the Church was social justice as preached by none other then Jesus Christ himself. The general theory was that the church got hi jacked in the early middle ages and had been held captive to capitalist interests all these years, and only now was able to break free.
I never saw any change in the Mass until about 1973 or so. The Pastor retired or moved and a new one came in. That was it. The old Mass was gone overnight. No explanation, no time to adjust, nothing. We were told from the pulpit that the Church had entered a new era, that we were behind the times and had to catch up. I still remember the old Italian ladies who could not understand what was going on crying because the Blessed
Mothers Statue was removed from her place and deposited in a storage room. .No more rosarys said in the mornings, They were said to be too old fashioned. The May Processions were cancelled because they showed too much devotion to the Blessed Mother. No more Exposition or Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, nothing like that at all. All of the Altar Boys were dismissed en masse. Nobody knew what to do anymore. . The Mass changed just every time it was celebrated. Church attendance plummetted.
There were three churches in town that held on to the Old Mass, and they were packed. Everyone thought it was just a phase and would go away. It didn’t. The archbishop put pressure on the the three remaining churches and two of them caved in. The third refused and I suppose went into schism. . On occasion the Priests would tell us that we could not find God in the Latin Mass anymore and that it was a thing of the past best forgotten. We could however find God in Baptist Churches, Pentecostal Churches etc. That didn’t make any sense then or now.
As time went by, a lot of people stopped going to church at all, For our neighborhood that was traumatic because the Churches were the glue that kept the neighborhood together. Without the Catholic schools, three of them closed, the kids were pushed into public education which in that area really sucked. Without the moral center of the Church many of the young people drifted into drugs and worse. Eventually three of the Churches were closed also, their parishes consolidated into one. . The lone remaining Church was on the verge of closing for years and I think only stayed open due to it having the only Catholic School left in the area.
Now, the Discalced Carmelite Convent is closed, and has been for a long time. They had Perpetual Adoration and prayed around the clock for the world. At least that was what we had been told. The Poor Claire Nuns haven’t had a vocation in years, and the remaining sisters sent to a retirement home. St. Alphonsus Church and School, closed, Blessed Sacrament Church and High School closed , St. Henrys closed, Saint Theresa Church and School closed, Our Lady Star of the Sea, closed, Holy Trinity closed, St. Elizabeths Orphanage, closed . All gone. Maybe not even remembered. Beautiful churches, remarkable architecture, destroyed and for what? Progress? Divine inspiration? Greed? Social justice? I wish someone could tell me.
Now maybe all these things would have hapened anyway, who knows. But I was there when they started, and I remember what was said and done. There was no compassion, no caring, nothing at all. It was just this is it take it or leave it. This is the new era and the new Church. . And you can best believe that some of the those that were pushing for the changes then are bishops and arch bishops now. Heck maybe even Cardinals And since they were hell bent on change then, I doubt that many of them are willing to go back to what was. In fact I truly believe that many of them got exactly what they wanted.
Please don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate the Church, in fact I love it to my heart. And I remain faithful to the Pope. But I bring these things up, because I remember what happened, I haven’t forgotten. And people need to know. Something terribly wrong has happened to the Church. I don’t really know what it is or why or how it happened. I only know that something is wrong.
The Sisters moved out of the Convents, changed their habits to mostly civilian clothes, and most stopped teaching. Those that did teach seemed more interested in getting us involved in social causes than teaching.
Priests started to preach about the immorality of the war, and the plight of the poor. We as young people were encouraged to use civil disobedience to make changes in society. We were encouraged to attend anti war rallys, to expand our minds and horizons through experimentation. We were told explicitly that the Catholicism of our fathers was in error, and had to be changed, violently if necessary. The true and only valid mission of the Church was social justice as preached by none other then Jesus Christ himself. The general theory was that the church got hi jacked in the early middle ages and had been held captive to capitalist interests all these years, and only now was able to break free.
I never saw any change in the Mass until about 1973 or so. The Pastor retired or moved and a new one came in. That was it. The old Mass was gone overnight. No explanation, no time to adjust, nothing. We were told from the pulpit that the Church had entered a new era, that we were behind the times and had to catch up. I still remember the old Italian ladies who could not understand what was going on crying because the Blessed
Mothers Statue was removed from her place and deposited in a storage room. .No more rosarys said in the mornings, They were said to be too old fashioned. The May Processions were cancelled because they showed too much devotion to the Blessed Mother. No more Exposition or Adoration of the Blessed Sacrament, nothing like that at all. All of the Altar Boys were dismissed en masse. Nobody knew what to do anymore. . The Mass changed just every time it was celebrated. Church attendance plummetted.
There were three churches in town that held on to the Old Mass, and they were packed. Everyone thought it was just a phase and would go away. It didn’t. The archbishop put pressure on the the three remaining churches and two of them caved in. The third refused and I suppose went into schism. . On occasion the Priests would tell us that we could not find God in the Latin Mass anymore and that it was a thing of the past best forgotten. We could however find God in Baptist Churches, Pentecostal Churches etc. That didn’t make any sense then or now.
As time went by, a lot of people stopped going to church at all, For our neighborhood that was traumatic because the Churches were the glue that kept the neighborhood together. Without the Catholic schools, three of them closed, the kids were pushed into public education which in that area really sucked. Without the moral center of the Church many of the young people drifted into drugs and worse. Eventually three of the Churches were closed also, their parishes consolidated into one. . The lone remaining Church was on the verge of closing for years and I think only stayed open due to it having the only Catholic School left in the area.
Now, the Discalced Carmelite Convent is closed, and has been for a long time. They had Perpetual Adoration and prayed around the clock for the world. At least that was what we had been told. The Poor Claire Nuns haven’t had a vocation in years, and the remaining sisters sent to a retirement home. St. Alphonsus Church and School, closed, Blessed Sacrament Church and High School closed , St. Henrys closed, Saint Theresa Church and School closed, Our Lady Star of the Sea, closed, Holy Trinity closed, St. Elizabeths Orphanage, closed . All gone. Maybe not even remembered. Beautiful churches, remarkable architecture, destroyed and for what? Progress? Divine inspiration? Greed? Social justice? I wish someone could tell me.
Now maybe all these things would have hapened anyway, who knows. But I was there when they started, and I remember what was said and done. There was no compassion, no caring, nothing at all. It was just this is it take it or leave it. This is the new era and the new Church. . And you can best believe that some of the those that were pushing for the changes then are bishops and arch bishops now. Heck maybe even Cardinals And since they were hell bent on change then, I doubt that many of them are willing to go back to what was. In fact I truly believe that many of them got exactly what they wanted.
Please don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate the Church, in fact I love it to my heart. And I remain faithful to the Pope. But I bring these things up, because I remember what happened, I haven’t forgotten. And people need to know. Something terribly wrong has happened to the Church. I don’t really know what it is or why or how it happened. I only know that something is wrong.
I
InnocentIII
Guest
Not always. This is a modernist myth. Those in favour of change should be the ones to justify why a) the old is not working b) the new will work better. It is clear from the last forty years that many of the “progressive changes” have either proved retrograde in practice or have had unintended side effects that vitiate the good they were intended to do. We need to abandon the idea that something is by definition good because it is a change.
Amen to that. I must share a brief anecdote here. Last Sunday, out of the blue, Father started explaining his actions in cleaning the vessels after communion and then told everyone that reception on the tongue is desirable for all. He is a most orthodox priest but he has never stated this before. He speaks often when the Holy Spirit moves him. I wonder if this was one of those occasions.
I hear ByzCath, and I feel the RadTrads and the Liberals share one thing in common. They are heterodox. I will defend the Church and the orthodox faith while I have breath in my body. Those of us who allowed the abuses to become norms by not speaking out before now have a duty to make clear that many are still abuses albeit tolerated ones.
V
viktor_aleksndr
Guest
I am not sick and tired of people attacking our Church and the Mass. For it is in this discussion we find light. You cannot find the truth if you are not in the state of ignorance.
I know for myself that i could have indirectly attack our Church, it is because i am ignorant. It is on my ignorance that i find light and truth. Our job as servants of God is to bring light to those in darkness and truth to those ignorants.
Love you Enemy and share them the truth about God and Church.
I know for myself that i could have indirectly attack our Church, it is because i am ignorant. It is on my ignorance that i find light and truth. Our job as servants of God is to bring light to those in darkness and truth to those ignorants.
Love you Enemy and share them the truth about God and Church.
O
oat_soda
Guest
few bishops been more critical of the church and the mass then Benedict XVI.
B
bear06
Guest
I have no idea why this keeps popping up as a current post but since it does, I think I’ll respond.
You might want to look carefully at what our Pope is criticizing. It’s not the Church but those who try and deviate from it. It’s not the Mass of Vatican II (as Fr. Fessio calls it) but those who try to run away with their version of it.
You might want to look carefully at what our Pope is criticizing. It’s not the Church but those who try and deviate from it. It’s not the Mass of Vatican II (as Fr. Fessio calls it) but those who try to run away with their version of it.
N
netmilsmom
Guest
Wow! Have you got that right!
T
Topher
Guest
Look, I do think that the traditionalists are way off base and that schismatic groups are even more off base. However, it is important that we address litugical abuses in this day and age because they are abundant. The liturgy is the only time we offer the true sacrifice of Calvary to God. In fact the entire faith flows from the liturgy. It contains all of the sacred doctrine of the faithful and the eternal presecene and myster of the life of the God-man Jesus Christ. It is an enterance into heaven, the Holy Sacrifice where the entire Church, Millitant, Suffering, and Glorified are united in the worship of God. For this reason the mass should be dignified and done according to the mandates of the Church. Regaurdless of how anyone feels.
B
bear06
Guest
I couldn’t agree with you more. I fought and fought hard in our diocese with a few people for an orthodox replacement for our retiring liberal bishop. Our methods were extremely effective according to the then Cardinal Ratzinger. We got a wonderfully orthodox replacement who is making steady progress in stopping the abuses. I’m sure we’ve got a long way to go. It’ll take him awhile to figure out how to “plug all of the leaks” that come up on a regular basis. While I’d like all abuse gone today, I’m thankful for the progress he’s made and pray for a continued progress.
E
Edwin1961
Guest
My comment is more against the attacks against the Church.
Mostly tired of all the arguing and fussing over the Orhtodox Christians feuding with us Byzantine Catholics. Come on, we’re ALL from the Eastern Christian tradition and way squabble over something trivial as authority. Yes to me it’s trivial! Christ vreated His Church and whoever leads the Church here on earth is Only Human. Even the Pope and the eastern Patriarchs are Only Human…it’s just that they all have the Holy Spirit. I guess the problem is the matter of Pride on who in their eyes is the leader of The Church.
Mostly tired of all the arguing and fussing over the Orhtodox Christians feuding with us Byzantine Catholics. Come on, we’re ALL from the Eastern Christian tradition and way squabble over something trivial as authority. Yes to me it’s trivial! Christ vreated His Church and whoever leads the Church here on earth is Only Human. Even the Pope and the eastern Patriarchs are Only Human…it’s just that they all have the Holy Spirit. I guess the problem is the matter of Pride on who in their eyes is the leader of The Church.
- Status