Who else is sick and tired of people on this board attacking traditionalists?

[dumspirospero]

It seems recently all that has been going on are a bunch of self proclaimed progressive and liberal Catholics bashing the more traditional and conservative Catholics on this boards. It is quite disheartening and actually sickening. Just because someone prefers the TLM, does not make them heterodox…We have the right to attend the TLM, wherever it is offered…the Holy Father sees the importance of the TLM and encourages people to attend if that is what they prefer. Also, if one chooses to fast like they did 50 years ago…or if women want to wear a Mantilla…one should be able to do so without being exiled from progressive Catholics.

I have my reasons for preferring the TLM over the Novus Ordo…and I really don’t care if you believe that makes me a bad Catholic. All I know is that when I go to the TLM, I hear an Angelic Choir singing the most beautiful Latin Hyms, everyone is dressed appropriately, people are not smoking and joking in the pews, etc…as opposed to several Novus Ordo Masses I go to where people wear cut-offs, sweat suits, chew gum, talk, guitars and drums being used instead of choir, read magazines, and I even had a friend who saw a man reading a road map…With that said…I love the Holy Father and I agree totally with the teachings of the Church…100% I am an Orthodox Catholic…being a traditionalist and Orthodox is not mutually exclusive…I don’t know where this notion that it is came from.

Now, if you want to bash me for that and call me arrogant…go ahead…I will tell you this much though…I will choose a Mass in Latin anyday and the people that attend it over a Mass where you have clowns running around and people that look like they are ready to put on a production of Hamlet…IMHO that is a mockery of the Mass and should be condemned…I see stuff like that as having a lot more potential for harming the Church as opposed to Catholics that actually follow the Church’s teachings and don’t pick and choose what they will and will not follow…which happens a lot today.

Oh yeah…and before you bash “rad trads” as you like to call us…read Ecclesia Dei…the TLM is approved and supported by the Holy Father…does that make him a “rad trad”? I don’t think so.

Also…if you answer no…please explain why you would like to see your CAtholic brothers and sisters continued to verbally assaulted?

 

[dumspirospero]

This is the picture I was referring to in the previous post…I have seen it a number of times, but it is on another post somewhere on this board…this is a mockery of the Mass. What do you think is more harmful to the Church??? A traditional Catholic who loves the Latin Mass…or a group of progressives that looks like they are mingling Shakespeare with the Circus while they hold mass?http://home.att.net/~fast996/postvat2..jpg

 

[fix]

The clown stuff is way over the top. It went on in my diocese and may still be going on for all I know. It is a sign of immaturity and a failure to learn the faith as we each are required to do.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

What a joke, you throw out a picture that has floated around the 'net for years as if it proves that this is going on every where.

Maybe this Mass was celebrated at a Circus for the performers? How about we show a Mass for soldiers in combat with them all in combat dress? Or before a football game with them in their uniforms.

The issue here is not against Traditionalists nor conservatives. Of which I am both, and by the way, conservative is a political term and really doesn’t fit, I use orthodox and heterodox.

The issue is against those radical Traditionalist who support schismatic groups, who question the validity of the Mass (usually in a vague manner so they can claim that they don’t), who attack the Church and paint everyone who disagrees with them as a mondernist, who deny Vatican II.

That is who I am against becuase they are not posting the Truth, just what they want the Truth to be.

To tell the truth, I am sick of it but if we do not refute what they post then it looks like they are in the right. I am also sick of all these threads crying about it.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

fix:

The clown stuff is way over the top. It went on in my diocese and may still be going on for all I know. It is a sign of immaturity and a failure to learn the faith as we each are required to do.

Please explain what is wrong with the picture that is posted?

It seems that the only issue is the manner of dress of the people present.

 

[Elzee]

I’m confused. What was going on with the clown Mass? I’ve never seen such a thing before. What was the supposed intent? Looks like I’ve been sheltered, thank goodness, by belonging to fairly traditional parishes in my life.

 

[fix]

ByzCath:

What a joke, you throw out a picture that has floated around the 'net for years as if it proves that this is going on every where.

Maybe this Mass was celebrated at a Circus for the performers? How about we show a Mass for soldiers in combat with them all in combat dress?

Soldiers would have a legitimate reason for being in fatigues. Clown mass? What legitimate reason? Football players? Why?

This was done until very recently in my diocese. It may still be going on. These abuses are not as few as one may think.

 

[fix]

Answer by Catholic Answers on 11-15-2004: Jim-- If by “clown Mass” you are referring to a liturgy with illicit elements such as tightrope walking over the main altar or a priest dressed up as a clown, the Church has never given permission for such illicit activities. If they have occurred, they have occurred because certain people did it on their own initiative without consulting the Church.

It is true that there have been a very few publicized cases of priests who have lost their faculties because they have illicitly celebrated a Tridentine Latin Mass without the permission of their ordinary. (The standard liturgy of the Roman rite may be said in Latin by any priest without special permission; only the Tridentine Latin Mass requires an indult.) Such priests were disciplined because they disobeyed the ordinary to whom they had vowed their obedience, not because they celebrated the Mass in Latin.

Michelle Arnold
Catholic Answers

 

[fix]

The Mass
Question from Kristi on 08-26-2002: To Whom It May Concern,Hi!!! Dominus vobiscum. Greetings in the Lord Jesus!!!

Why is it that we are allowed to have clown Masses, Polka Masses, and any other kind of irreverant–horseplay–Masses when we always have to get permission to have Latin Tridentine Masses (which were always celebrated until the Second Vatican Council)? This makes no sense!!!

God bless!!!

In the Immaculate Heart of Mary,

Kristi
**Answer by Colin B. Donovan, STL on 08-28-2002:** You're right it does not. But then, the goofy Masses you mention are NOT allowed, whereas, the Pope has encouraged the availability of the Tridentine Mass for those who want it.

 

[Annunciata]

I’m confused…. Who do you consider to be Traditional or Conservative?

I follow Novus Ordo and if I had the opportunity to attend a Latin Mass I would love to!

That said, I feel that I’m probably a Conservative…
I was recently called arrogant on another thread for my responses regarding an "isolated case* where my granddaughter is in training as an altar server…
Note Well, I was not condoning girls over boys as altar servers…just noting that my GD was doing it as an act of kindness to help her younger brother who was a little shy…
Her encouragement by training w/ him has given him the confidence to do so…

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

fix:

Soldiers would have a legitimate reason for being in fatigues. Clown mass? What legitimate reason? Football players? Why?

This was done until very recently in my diocese. It may still be going on. These abuses are not as few as one may think.

So the issue is what the people attending the Mass are wearing?

As for the polka Mass thing you posted. The only ones I have heard of is where the music at the Mass is polka like. Polka music is folk music for some cultures.

So now you are objecting to the dress and the music preference of some? Those strictly are not abuses.

 

[fix]

ByzCath:

So the issue is what the people attending the Mass are wearing?

As for the polka Mass thing you posted. The only ones I have heard of is where the music at the Mass is polka like. Polka music is folk music for some cultures.

So now you are objecting to the dress and the music preference of some? Those strictly are not abuses.

I do object to the dress, yes. That is only part of the pic, heaven knows what else went on and goes on. The mass should be reverent.

As for polka music that has been debated time and time again. I have posted links to Vatican experts that have said it is not proper. Sacred music is for Church use. If you want the links I will post them.

 

[fix]

Elzee:

I’m confused. What was going on with the clown Mass? I’ve never seen such a thing before. What was the supposed intent? Looks like I’ve been sheltered, thank goodness, by belonging to fairly traditional parishes in my life.

What is going on is irreverence. Folks think the mass is their private property and can make it more appealing to others. It is novelty for novelty sake and a real shame.

 

[dumspirospero]

I have to say…the poll results are troubling. IN all the other polls with similar topics, such as the Novus Ordo, The Church, etc…it was 99% against all those types of bashing…but this poll was very troubling to me and pretty sad, because close to **50%****, **of the people who voted on this poll said they were not sick and tired of people bashing traditionalist and that is a real problem. I voted that I was sick and tired of people bashing any group of people…I dont’ think it is right and I don’t condone any of it from any side…why do some of you all believe it is ok to bash traditional CAtholics, but condemn all other types of bashing?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

dumspirospero:

I have to say…the poll results are troubling. IN all the other polls with similar topics, such as the Novus Ordo, The Church, etc…it was 99% against all those types of bashing…but this poll was very troubling to me and pretty sad, because close to **50%****, **of the people who voted on this poll said they were not sick and tired of people bashing traditionalist and that is a real problem. I voted that I was sick and tired of people bashing any group of people…I dont’ think it is right and I don’t condone any of it from any side…why do some of you all believe it is ok to bash traditional CAtholics, but condemn all other types of bashing?

There are two reasons that I can see for this.

1. the most vocal group of “Traditionalist” here is that small group that you do not belong to. Those who think as you do seem to be silent on the issues that other group keeps beating on.
2. there seems to be an idea here that to be a “Traditionalist” one must, at the very least, prefer the TLM. This is not true, how can someone who prefers the NO Mass not be called a traditionalist when they follow what the Church teaches?

Thats how I see it.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

I think we need a clarification of terms. Dumspirospero, I personally do not think, in these forums, people of your stance and outlook are being attacked. You attend a Indult Mass and obey the Holy Father. You don’t question the licitness or validity of the NO Mass. There are lots of Catholics like you that post here.

I attend a NO Mass. I’ve never attended any other kind, except for the Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine Catholic Church once. I obey the Holy Father and do not question the licitness or validity of the Indult Mass (I don’t even question the validity of the TLM offered by the SSPX, just its licitness). There are lots of Catholics like me that post here. You call yourself 100% orthodox. I think I am, too.

I distinguish between Traditionalists and Rad Trads, who, as I’m sure you know, range from those who adhere to SSPX to Sedevacanteists. I don’t feel free to attack even Rad Trads, however. I only respond to their posts, in threads like “Is the Novus Ordo Mass Valid?” and “Was the Novus Ordo Mass Promulgated?”, etc. Don’t the titles of those threads sound like a challenge? Maybe I should avoid those threads, I dunno. But don’t we as Catholics have an obligation to defend the Faith, esp. when others who are inquiring into Catholicism are reading the posts? I wouldn’t bother otherwise, because I don’t actually think I’m going to change their minds.

Traditionalists don’t trash the NO Mass, just abuses of it, nor do they say that the TLM is INHERENTLY (of its nature) more reverent than a correctly celebrated NO. They just prefer the TLM.
Rad Trads trash the Novus Ordo as inherently (of its nature) flawed and extol the TLM as inherently (of its nature) more revererent. It is that to which I believe faithful Catholics must give an answer. Have defenders of the NO occasionally gotten personal and offensive? Yes. Can we make an argument that they’ve been provoked? I think the answer to that is also yes. And then we enter into the fray without distinguishing traditionalists and radical traditionalists, which is regretable.

Also (and I know I don’t need to tell you this, Dumspirospero), defending the NO is not defending abuses of the NO. If I say I prefer the NO, that doesn’t mean I like the clown mass, or the cheese head mass, or the circus mass, or women altar servers, and it certainly doesn’t mean that I like those bizarre liturgical dancers (thank you very much, Cardinal Mahony, for all you’ve done to “enhance” the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass! ). To not distinguish between the NO Mass and the abuse of the NO Mass is like blaming a beautiful woman for being raped instead of blaming the rapist.

 

[dumspirospero]

Now I am laughing really hard…what is the “cheese head mass”? I have never heard of that one.

JKirkLVNV:

Also (and I know I don’t need to tell you this, Dumspirospero), defending the NO is not defending abuses of the NO. If I say I prefer the NO, that doesn’t mean I like the clown mass, or the cheese head mass, or the circus mass, or women altar servers, and it certainly doesn’t mean that I like those bizarre liturgical dancers (thank you very much, Cardinal Mahony, for all you’ve done to “enhance” the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass! ). To not distinguish between the NO Mass and the abuse of the NO Mass is like blaming a beautiful woman for being raped instead of blaming the rapist.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

dumspirospero:

Now I am laughing really hard…what is the “cheese head mass”? I have never heard of that one.

Well, it’s that picture that’s been floating around the forums of the priest who’s wearing the foam cheese wedge on his head, the one like fans of the Green Bay Packers wear to games, at a mass. At least I think he’s a priest and it’s at a mass, he’s also wearing a chasuble.

 

[fix]

JKirkLVNV:

Well, it’s that picture that’s been floating around the forums of the priest who’s wearing the foam cheese wedge on his head, the one like fans of the Green Bay Packers wear to games, at a mass. At least I think he’s a priest and it’s at a mass, he’s also wearing a chasuble.

It is the bishop who took over for Weakland.

 

[Jakub]

I’m a traditional person but I can accept a Novus Ordo Mass when its proper and reverent in all aspects, which is hard to find in Los Angeles area.

Like many I lament the abuses.

Is there not room for us to worship with the newest upcoming revised 1970 Missal and the 1962 Missal.

james