Who else is sick and tired of people on this board attacking traditionalists?

[Nota_Bene]

dumspirospero:

It seems recently all that has been going on are a bunch of self proclaimed progressive and liberal Catholics bashing the more traditional and conservative Catholics on this boards. It is quite disheartening and actually sickening.

“Self proclaimed progressive and liberal Catholics.” Oh yeah? Who on these forums have made such proclaimations? I believe you just fabricated that.

dumspirospero:

Just because someone prefers the TLM, does not make them heterodox…We have the right to attend the TLM, wherever it is offered…the Holy Father sees the importance of the TLM and encourages people to attend if that is what they prefer. Also, if one chooses to fast like they did 50 years ago…or if women want to wear a Mantilla…one should be able to do so without being exiled from progressive Catholics.

And just because someone is a “traditonalist” certainly does not make them an orthodox Catholic.

Just don’t suggest that your 50 year old traditions are any “better” than what the Church actually directs today. That’s one place where “traditionalists” lose credibility.

dumspirospero:

I have my reasons for preferring the TLM over the Novus Ordo…and I really don’t care if you believe that makes me a bad Catholic. All I know is that when I go to the TLM, I hear an Angelic Choir singing the most beautiful Latin Hyms, everyone is dressed appropriately, people are not smoking and joking in the pews, etc…as opposed to several Novus Ordo Masses I go to where people wear cut-offs, sweat suits, chew gum, talk, guitars and drums being used instead of choir, read magazines, and I even had a friend who saw a man reading a road map…With that said…I love the Holy Father and I agree totally with the teachings of the Church…100% I am an Orthodox Catholic…being a traditionalist and Orthodox is not mutually exclusive…I don’t know where this notion that it is came from.

People smoke in your pews? I think you’re fabricating again. Again, do as you wish, but don’t ever suggest that the “tlm” is better than the Novus Ordo Mass.

dumspirospero:

Now, if you want to bash me for that and call me arrogant…go ahead…I will tell you this much though…I will choose a Mass in Latin anyday and the people that attend it over a Mass where you have clowns running around and people that look like they are ready to put on a production of Hamlet…IMHO that is a mockery of the Mass and should be condemned…I see stuff like that as having a lot more potential for harming the Church as opposed to Catholics that actually follow the Church’s teachings and don’t pick and choose what they will and will not follow…which happens a lot today.

I would actually say that you appear to lack the ability to think in a critical manner. As I said before, some of your comments seem to be fabricated. Keep in mind that no matter how hard you try, the tlm (or those that attend it) are no “better” than the Novus Ordo Mass (or those that attend it.) Expect to be critisized anytime you bring such garbage to the table.

dumspirospero:

Oh yeah…and before you bash “rad trads” as you like to call us…read Ecclesia Dei…the TLM is approved and supported by the Holy Father…does that make him a “rad trad”? I don’t think so.

Try reading the parts in ED that document the excommunication of Lefebvre and his minions. Some “traditonalists” seem to miss that.

Also, as a regular attendee of the Tridentine Mass, I have no clue why you would suggest that anyone said the TLM was not approved. Can you provide a posting that suggests it’s not?

dumspirospero:

Also…if you answer no…please explain why you would like to see your CAtholic brothers and sisters continued to verbally assaulted?

Don’t be a hypocrite. The “assult” that you just levied is going to be returned – count on it.

 

[Nota_Bene]

ByzCath:

What a joke, you throw out a picture that has floated around the 'net for years as if it proves that this is going on every where.

Maybe this Mass was celebrated at a Circus for the performers? How about we show a Mass for soldiers in combat with them all in combat dress? Or before a football game with them in their uniforms.

The issue here is not against Traditionalists nor conservatives. Of which I am both, and by the way, conservative is a political term and really doesn’t fit, I use orthodox and heterodox.

The issue is against those radical Traditionalist who support schismatic groups, who question the validity of the Mass (usually in a vague manner so they can claim that they don’t), who attack the Church and paint everyone who disagrees with them as a mondernist, who deny Vatican II.

That is who I am against becuase they are not posting the Truth, just what they want the Truth to be.

To tell the truth, I am sick of it but if we do not refute what they post then it looks like they are in the right. I am also sick of all these threads crying about it.

Awesome posting…

 

[Nota_Bene]

fix:

It is the bishop who took over for Weakland.

You’re wrong. Tim Dolan took over for Rembert Weakland, and that’s not ABp. Tim in the photo.

 

[Nota_Bene]

JKirkLVNV:

I think we need a clarification of terms. Dumspirospero, I personally do not think, in these forums, people of your stance and outlook are being attacked. You attend a Indult Mass and obey the Holy Father. You don’t question the licitness or validity of the NO Mass. There are lots of Catholics like you that post here.

I attend a NO Mass. I’ve never attended any other kind, except for the Divine Liturgy in the Byzantine Catholic Church once. I obey the Holy Father and do not question the licitness or validity of the Indult Mass (I don’t even question the validity of the TLM offered by the SSPX, just its licitness). There are lots of Catholics like me that post here. You call yourself 100% orthodox. I think I am, too.

I distinguish between Traditionalists and Rad Trads, who, as I’m sure you know, range from those who adhere to SSPX to Sedevacanteists. I don’t feel free to attack even Rad Trads, however. I only respond to their posts, in threads like “Is the Novus Ordo Mass Valid?” and “Was the Novus Ordo Mass Promulgated?”, etc. Don’t the titles of those threads sound like a challenge? Maybe I should avoid those threads, I dunno. But don’t we as Catholics have an obligation to defend the Faith, esp. when others who are inquiring into Catholicism are reading the posts? I wouldn’t bother otherwise, because I don’t actually think I’m going to change their minds.

Traditionalists don’t trash the NO Mass, just abuses of it, nor do they say that the TLM is INHERENTLY (of its nature) more reverent than a correctly celebrated NO. They just prefer the TLM.
Rad Trads trash the Novus Ordo as inherently (of its nature) flawed and extol the TLM as inherently (of its nature) more revererent. It is that to which I believe faithful Catholics must give an answer. Have defenders of the NO occasionally gotten personal and offensive? Yes. Can we make an argument that they’ve been provoked? I think the answer to that is also yes. And then we enter into the fray without distinguishing traditionalists and radical traditionalists, which is regretable.

Also (and I know I don’t need to tell you this, Dumspirospero), defending the NO is not defending abuses of the NO. If I say I prefer the NO, that doesn’t mean I like the clown mass, or the cheese head mass, or the circus mass, or women altar servers, and it certainly doesn’t mean that I like those bizarre liturgical dancers (thank you very much, Cardinal Mahony, for all you’ve done to “enhance” the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass! ). To not distinguish between the NO Mass and the abuse of the NO Mass is like blaming a beautiful woman for being raped instead of blaming the rapist.

Another excellent posting…

 

[fix]

Nota Bene:

You’re wrong. Tim Dolan took over for Rembert Weakland, and that’s not ABp. Tim in the photo.

Well, I remember seeing it at Seattle Catholic. Perhaps it not captioned correctly, or perhaps it was not him, but at a mass where he was presiding.

See this:

“Briefly exchanging his miter to “debut a new miter” during his homily, Dolan donned a bright yellow cheesehead, and told the roaring crowing that he understood the Packers were victorious earlier in the afternoon.”

chnonline.org/2002/2002-09-12/newsstory1.html

 

[Genesis315]

I love the TLM and am glad it’s available, but I’m starting to think that the reason why the Church only allowed the NO for a while was probably to prevent this infighting and disunity that seems to go along with the two forms of Masses. Having two forms seems to have created two almost rival camps, at least from what I’ve seen on these threads. Any thoughts?

 

[fix]

Genesis315:

I love the TLM and am glad it’s available, but I’m starting to think that the reason why the Church only allowed the NO for a while was probably to prevent this infighting and disunity that seems to go along with the two forms of Masses. Having two forms seems to have created two almost rival camps, at least from what I’ve seen on these threads. Any thoughts?

One of the main reasons we see two camps is because of the incredible abuses that occur with the NO. The Vatican has said so much several times. The Pope tries to correct them, but the rebellious ones will not serve.

 

[dumspirospero]

Nota Bene…I am sorry but I am laughing so hard I can barely type…I can obviously see you have not spent any time in the military…“Smoking and Joking” is a term which means goofing off…it doesn’t mean someone is actually smoking.

I find it funny you think you know so much, but you actually know so little…and to top it off, you spout off opinions as if they are facts and doctrines…I was unaware I was on the message board with St. Paul

And once again…Nota I will spell it out for you since you have a hard time comprehending everything I have ever said I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT PEOPLE WHO ATTEND THE TLM ARE BETTER…NOR HAVE I SAID THE TLM IS SUPERIOR TO THE NOVUS ORDO…I HAVE SAID AND I MAINTAIN IT IS MY PREFERENCE.

Can I make it any clearer than that for you??? Don’t put words into my mouth…it just makes you look foolish when you try to argue someone about something they never even said.
Nota Bene:

People smoke in your pews? I think you’re fabricating again. Again, do as you wish, but don’t ever suggest that the “tlm” is better than the Novus Ordo Mass.

I would actually say that you appear to lack the ability to think in a critical manner. As I said before, some of your comments seem to be fabricated. Keep in mind that no matter how hard you try, the tlm (or those that attend it) are no “better” than the Novus Ordo Mass (or those that attend it.) Expect to be critisized anytime you bring such garbage to the table.

Don’t be a hypocrite. The “assult” that you just levied is going to be returned – count on it.

 

[pnewton]

I vote yes on your poll. That is the third time I said I was sick and tired today. Maybe I need a vacation. Maybe we all need more charity.

…or maybe I just like to vote yes.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

fix:

One of the main reasons we see two camps is because of the incredible abuses that occur with the NO. The Vatican has said so much several times. The Pope tries to correct them, but the rebellious ones will not serve.

And that’s what I find trouble understanding. Not to harp on him, because I’m sure there are other bishop’s just as “directive challenged,” but Roger Cardinal Mahony leaves me goggle-eyed and flummoxed. What about GIRM and other directives doesn’t he get?

I’m starting to have a fantasy that is as follows:

HHJPII: “Your Eminence, I’ve called you to Rome to ask you a simple question: are you or are you not going to obey the directives on the proper celebration of the liturgy that have been issued by this See, with my full knowledge, consent, and authority?”

HERCM: “Well, Your Holiness, it’s like this, see, um…dubium…and um, er, National Conference, and…uh…hmm, local custom…liturgical theology…liturgists…
committees, etc…”

HHJPII: “And was that a yes or a no?”

HERCM: “Um, well, Your Holiness, um, er, need to study…various interpretations…exact meaning of the word “yes…” not enough chalices…exact meaning of the word “no…”
um, so…”

HHJPII: “Your Eminence is no longer Archbishop of Los Angeles. Thanks for your years of dedicated service, we have some lovely parting gifts for you, don’t we, Johnny!”

Johnny: “Yes, indeed, Your Holiness, we have a lovely little hermitage on the island of Patmos, of Revelations fame, plus a life-time supply of oatmeal and the camel dung with which to cook it…” Fade to black. Sigh.

 

[bear06]

JKirkLVNV:

Well, it’s that picture that’s been floating around the forums of the priest who’s wearing the foam cheese wedge on his head, the one like fans of the Green Bay Packers wear to games, at a mass. At least I think he’s a priest and it’s at a mass, he’s also wearing a chasuble.

The “cheesehead” mass wasn’t a Mass at all. It was a commencement speach by the bishop at a college in Wisconsin. I always thought it was a Mass to because that’s the billing it got on Traditio. After I started finding that some of the things listed in my diocese were very mislabled, I investigated. Many of the things on traditio are “mislabled”.

As far as the clown mass, that picture comes from my diocese. Yes, it did happen. No, it’s not the norm. No, it won’t be happening anymore under the new bishop and that’s the reason that this picture made it onto a CD-rom sent off to Rome to request an orthodox replacement to our unorthodox old bishop. The person who took the picture and burnt it onto the very successful CD never had any intention of using it to bash the “Novus Ordo” or Vatican II and is not happy it’s being used to do so.

As far as bashing the Traditionalists, please. I have absolutely no problem with Trads and have several Trad friends. Nor do I have a problem with the TLM. I have a problem with the rad-Trads and if you’ll do a little research, you’ll see that no debates on this issue come up until somebody bashes the “Novus Ordo”, the Pope or Vatican II. So, I’d suggest if you don’t want to hear us defend the Mass, Pope or Vatican II, don’t mention them yourselves. I find it very sad that people cannot promote the TLM without trying to “take down” one of these three.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

bear06:

The “cheesehead” mass wasn’t a Mass at all. It was a commencement speach by the bishop at a college in Wisconsin. I always thought it was a Mass to because that’s the billing it got on Traditio. After I started finding that some of the things listed in my diocese were very mislabled, I investigated. Many of the things on traditio are “mislabled”.

As far as the clown mass, that picture comes from my diocese. Yes, it did happen. No, it’s not the norm. No, it won’t be happening anymore under the new bishop and that’s the reason that this picture made it onto a CD-rom sent off to Rome to request an orthodox replacement to our unorthodox old bishop. The person who took the picture and burnt it onto the very successful CD never had any intention of using it to bash the “Novus Ordo” or Vatican II and is not happy it’s being used to do so.

As far as bashing the Traditionalists, please. I have absolutely no problem with Trads and have several Trad friends. Nor do I have a problem with the TLM. I have a problem with the rad-Trads and if you’ll do a little research, you’ll see that no debates on this issue come up until somebody bashes the “Novus Ordo”, the Pope or Vatican II. So, I’d suggest if you don’t want to hear us defend the Mass, Pope or Vatican II, don’t mention them yourselves. I find it very sad that people cannot promote the TLM without trying to “take down” one of these three.

Um, Bear, I wasn’t dissing anybody…well, maybe Cardinal Mahony a little.

 

[Jakub]

Love that #30 fantasy post by JKirk in Los Wages !

james

ps - is there a decent parish on the west side or near the LV Blvd + Flamingo ?

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Jakub:

Love that #30 fantasy post by JKirk in Los Wages !

james

ps - is there a decent parish on the west side or near the LV Blvd + Flamingo ?

Well, decent, I suppose, is in the eye of the beholder. “Christ the King” is on the west side of the 15, west on Tropicana, corner of Trop and Torrey Pines. Unfortunately, it’s not a church, but a “community” rolleyes: ), where you have to schedule a time to go to Confession…they also used to have a chapter of “Dignity,” but I think they got told to shut it down…not sure, as I wouldn’t darken the door.

Saint Elizabeth Ann Seton is orthodox, but they haven’t gotten around to completely incorporating GIRM (last Mass I saw there, a layman poured the Most Precious Blood from the flagon it had been consecrated in into various chalices while the priest and deacon were making their communion! I think, however, that this is just a lack of awareness on the part of the celebrating priest, who was from Africa…but I’m not sure).

My own parish, Our Lady of Las Vegas, is also just west of the 15 on Alta, but quite north of Trop. Very orthodox, the worst thing you’ll have to endure is our parochial vicar’s homilies (he’s very young and newly ordained) and a plethora of EMOHC or whatever they’re called…it’s a big parish and the celebrant couldn’t communicate everyone in a timely manner.

 

[bear06]

JKirkLVNV:

Um, Bear, I wasn’t dissing anybody…well, maybe Cardinal Mahony a little.

I didn’t say you were. I was just pointing out the inaccuracies in reporting on the rad-Trad websites. Also wanted to point out the innacuracies and hypocrisy in saying that we (collective since I’ve been involved in many of these conversations) are bashing Traditionalists. This has nothing to do with Traditionalists and everything to do with rad-Trads and their attacks.

BTW, Mahony should be dissed but more importantly, he should be fought with methods that work not the usually whining and complaining!

 

[Jakub]

Thanks for the info JKirk, I know there is a fairly new Church on Flamingo E/O Paradise St. Vitar’s maybe ?

I visit my brother there about once a month and was wondering.

So I gather there are no indult Masses in Vegas ?

james

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

I think I will undertake something. From now on, when the ambiguities about what constitutes a reverent or irreverent Mass, (whether NO or Latin), appear, I will suggest that the participants bone up on what the Mass means vis a vis the rituals of the OT.

I have the distinct impression that few (perhaps none), of you have even a minimal idea of where and how the parts of the Mass, the architecture of the sanctuary, the vestments and the rituals have developed.

If you had a better understanding of how these things evolved from Hebrew/Israeli/Jewish tent and Temple rituals, you still might advocate major changes and liberties for individual pariests and parishes, but I doubt that you would be quiet so cavalier.

Sometimes these discussions do appear to be the blind leading the blind. OTOH, if it’s more fun this way…

Anna

 

[Swiss_Guard]

What I don’t like is being labelled something I am not. I’ve been called a “trad” because I support using the Baltimore Catechism. I’ve been called a “trad” because I defend those who want a Tridentine Mass in their diocese. I’ve been called a “trad” because I correctly stated Ecclesia Dei says Catholics have a right to attend the Tridentine Mass.

**I have never attended an SSPX Mass. I did attend two Masses at an independent chapel when I came back to the Church in 1992 which is before I even knew there were such things as independent chapels. Once I found out this chapel was not in union with Rome I never went back. Yet, somehow I get lumped in with those who believe the Novus Ordo Mass is invalid, constantly bash Vatican II and believe anything promulgated after 1960 is heresy (of course Humanae Vitae is the exception to the rule).

---

I have never posted anything against the Holy Father, Vatican II, the Novus Ordo Mass, or the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Yet this hasn’t stopped some people on this board from labelling me a “trad”, the same people who quote my posts but ignore any positive comments I have about the aforementioned subjects. I guess these people are "Cafeteria Posters."

---

People need to stop believing anyone who doesn’t agree 100% with them is a “trad” who hates the Catholic Church. These people are just as bad as the “trads” they claim to dislike.

---

 

[Swiss_Guard]

dumspirospero:

Nota Bene…I am sorry but I am laughing so hard I can barely type…I can obviously see you have not spent any time in the military…“Smoking and Joking” is a term which means goofing off…it doesn’t mean someone is actually smoking.

I find it funny you think you know so much, but you actually know so little…and to top it off, you spout off opinions as if they are facts and doctrines…I was unaware I was on the message board with St. Paul

Yes, Nota Bene is the resident authority on this board. He knows so much about everything, yet he didn’t even know that once a person is baptized Catholic that person is Catholic for life, whether or not that person practices the Catholic faith.

dumspirospero:

And once again…Nota I will spell it out for you since you have a hard time comprehending everything I have ever said I HAVE NEVER SAID THAT PEOPLE WHO ATTEND THE TLM ARE BETTER…NOR HAVE I SAID THE TLM IS SUPERIOR TO THE NOVUS ORDO…I HAVE SAID AND I MAINTAIN IT IS MY PREFERENCE.

Can I make it any clearer than that for you??? Don’t put words into my mouth…it just makes you look foolish when you try to argue someone about something they never even said.

Putting words in people’s mouths is just one of the tactics he uses when he can’t defend his position, which is 90% of the time. Another tactic he uses is to ignore what people say and only pick out what he wants to support his argument. In a now deleted thread, I mentioned a number of catechisms I use for reference, including the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It was right there in the quote, yet he posts that I use every catechism except that one.

---

He will also make accusations and not support it. He posted that the Baltimore Catechism is horribly dated but could not give any reason to support his claim. When I said putting something in italics doesn’t make it true and asked for a reason, he gave the personal opinion of an EWTN priest and acted as if the Deposit of Faith rests in Alabama rather than Rome.

---

Nota Bene hears what he wants to hear and believes what he wants to believe. Don’t bother with him.

---

 

[Dr.Bombay]

****
Nota Bene hears what he wants to hear and believes what he wants to believe. Don’t bother with him.

And he makes startling, unprovoked personal attacks as well.

I’m telling you, the ignore feature is a God-send. I recommend it to everyone. :yup: