Who else is sick and tired of people on this board attacking traditionalists?

[JKirkLVNV]

Jakub:

Thanks for the info JKirk, I know there is a fairly new Church on Flamingo E/O Paradise St. Vitar’s maybe ?

I visit my brother there about once a month and was wondering.

So I gather there are no indult Masses in Vegas ?

james

No, sorry. We used to have an Anglican Use parish (beautiful Mass!), but the indult hasn’t made it here, I’m sorry to say. Our Lady of Wisdom is Byzantine Catholic, though. I spaced out St. Viator’s!

 

[dumspirospero]

You and Dr. Bombay make fine points…I have noticed the same…I also remember the thread you are talking about…I believe I exchanged some words with NB on it as well…the thing that really irritates me is when someone dismisses what others have to say by constantly calling them “ignorant” and other types of insults…then they try to spout out opinions like it is an infallible statement…maybe he thinks he is Aquinas???

Yes, Nota Bene is the resident authority on this board. He knows so much about everything, yet he didn’t even know that once a person is baptized Catholic that person is Catholic for life, whether or not that person practices the Catholic faith.

Putting words in people’s mouths is just one of the tactics he uses when he can’t defend his position, which is 90% of the time. Another tactic he uses is to ignore what people say and only pick out what he wants to support his argument. In a now deleted thread, I mentioned a number of catechisms I use for reference, including the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It was right there in the quote, yet he posts that I use every catechism except that one.

He will also make accusations and not support it. He posted that the Baltimore Catechism is horribly dated but could not give any reason to support his claim. When I said putting something in italics doesn’t make it true and asked for a reason, he gave the personal opinion of an EWTN priest and acted as if the Deposit of Faith rests in Alabama rather than Rome.

Nota Bene hears what he wants to hear and believes what he wants to believe. Don’t bother with him.

 

[fix]

bear06:

The “cheesehead” mass wasn’t a Mass at all. It was a commencement speach by the bishop at a college in Wisconsin. I always thought it was a Mass to because that’s the billing it got on Traditio. After I started finding that some of the things listed in my diocese were very mislabled, I investigated. Many of the things on traditio are “mislabled”.

As far as the clown mass, that picture comes from my diocese. Yes, it did happen. No, it’s not the norm. No, it won’t be happening anymore under the new bishop and that’s the reason that this picture made it onto a CD-rom sent off to Rome to request an orthodox replacement to our unorthodox old bishop. The person who took the picture and burnt it onto the very successful CD never had any intention of using it to bash the “Novus Ordo” or Vatican II and is not happy it’s being used to do so.

As far as bashing the Traditionalists, please. I have absolutely no problem with Trads and have several Trad friends. Nor do I have a problem with the TLM. I have a problem with the rad-Trads and if you’ll do a little research, you’ll see that no debates on this issue come up until somebody bashes the “Novus Ordo”, the Pope or Vatican II. So, I’d suggest if you don’t want to hear us defend the Mass, Pope or Vatican II, don’t mention them yourselves. I find it very sad that people cannot promote the TLM without trying to “take down” one of these three.

Perhaps you missed the diocesian newspaper?

“Briefly exchanging his miter to “debut a new miter” during his homily, Dolan donned a bright yellow cheesehead, and told the roaring crowing that he understood the Packers were victorious earlier in the afternoon.”

chnonline.org/2002/2002-…newsstory1.html

 

[fix]

JKirkLVNV:

And that’s what I find trouble understanding. Not to harp on him, because I’m sure there are other bishop’s just as “directive challenged,” but Roger Cardinal Mahony leaves me goggle-eyed and flummoxed. What about GIRM and other directives doesn’t he get?

I’m starting to have a fantasy that is as follows:

HHJPII: “Your Eminence, I’ve called you to Rome to ask you a simple question: are you or are you not going to obey the directives on the proper celebration of the liturgy that have been issued by this See, with my full knowledge, consent, and authority?”

HERCM: “Well, Your Holiness, it’s like this, see, um…dubium…and um, er, National Conference, and…uh…hmm, local custom…liturgical theology…liturgists…
committees, etc…”

HHJPII: “And was that a yes or a no?”

HERCM: “Um, well, Your Holiness, um, er, need to study…various interpretations…exact meaning of the word “yes…” not enough chalices…exact meaning of the word “no…”
um, so…”

HHJPII: “Your Eminence is no longer Archbishop of Los Angeles. Thanks for your years of dedicated service, we have some lovely parting gifts for you, don’t we, Johnny!”

Johnny: “Yes, indeed, Your Holiness, we have a lovely little hermitage on the island of Patmos, of Revelations fame, plus a life-time supply of oatmeal and the camel dung with which to cook it…” Fade to black. Sigh.

It is perplexing. I love JPII and I am certain he will be a saint, but he, himself, has observed that he is too lax in discipline. There is a good article here on CA from “This Rock” by a priest that summarizes the problems with JPII not “cracking down” on dissent.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

If I may, again, respectfully suggest that the Pope is in a precarious position. He could easily tip the American Church into formal schism if he wields too heavy a hand.

The Protestant Revolt is still an oozing, puss filled sore on the Body of Christ some 500 years later. We don’t need an American “Reformation” which might last even longer.

I think the Pope is taking the long-term view: Maintaining at least external unity, while setting a strong example of leadership and trying to get as many good men in key positions as possible.

I guess we won’t know until Judgement Day whether God is pleased with this course of action, or if He’d prefer a tough crackdown. Personally, barring a revelation from the Almighty, I’ll have to trust the Pope on this one.

 

[Fogny]

JKirkLVNV:

And that’s what I find trouble understanding. Not to harp on him, because I’m sure there are other bishop’s just as “directive challenged,” but Roger Cardinal Mahony leaves me goggle-eyed and flummoxed. What about GIRM and other directives doesn’t he get?

I’m starting to have a fantasy that is as follows:

HHJPII: “Your Eminence, I’ve called you to Rome to ask you a simple question: are you or are you not going to obey the directives on the proper celebration of the liturgy that have been issued by this See, with my full knowledge, consent, and authority?”

HERCM: “Well, Your Holiness, it’s like this, see, um…dubium…and um, er, National Conference, and…uh…hmm, local custom…liturgical theology…liturgists…
committees, etc…”

HHJPII: “And was that a yes or a no?”

HERCM: “Um, well, Your Holiness, um, er, need to study…various interpretations…exact meaning of the word “yes…” not enough chalices…exact meaning of the word “no…”
um, so…”

HHJPII: “Your Eminence is no longer Archbishop of Los Angeles. Thanks for your years of dedicated service, we have some lovely parting gifts for you, don’t we, Johnny!”

Johnny: “Yes, indeed, Your Holiness, we have a lovely little hermitage on the island of Patmos, of Revelations fame, plus a life-time supply of oatmeal and the camel dung with which to cook it…” Fade to black. Sigh.

I think your assesment is right on, but unfortunately JPII is responsible for the Cardinals appointment.
It is very hard to admit mistakes if you are only human, lets pray for our Pope that with the help of the holy spirit…
Let me say that who in the Church can be strong enough as almost all the Bishops are appointed by the present Pope.
Tolerence of abuse is proving to be a very difficult issue.
Last night on EWTN the priest said no doctrine, no dollars
How about no discipline, no dollars.

BTW Bp Straling in Reno permits a Indult mass, Las Vegas get with it.

Fogny

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Dr. Bombay:

If I may, again, respectfully suggest that the Pope is in a precarious position. He could easily tip the American Church into formal schism if he wields too heavy a hand.

The Protestant Revolt is still an oozing, puss filled sore on the Body of Christ some 500 years later. We don’t need an American “Reformation” which might last even longer.

I think the Pope is taking the long-term view: Maintaining at least external unity, while setting a strong example of leadership and trying to get as many good men in key positions as possible.

I guess we won’t know until Judgement Day whether God is pleased with this course of action, or if He’d prefer a tough crackdown. Personally, barring a revelation from the Almighty, I’ll have to trust the Pope on this one.

I know, Dr., but there is part of me (and I hope God forgives me) that would like the Holy Father to very calmly say to any bishop that threatens him with schism,“Do as you must, sir. Remember, though, it is we who hold the charism against which the gates of hell will never prevail. Those whom you mislead, we commend to the mercy of God. Be warned of the fate of shepherds who lead their flocks astray,however! How much more shall God hold them to account for that misleading.” I gotta stop this fantasy stuff! I’m sure you’re right about the long view, but mine would make a better movie!!!

 

[JKirkLVNV]

Fogny:

BTW Bp Straling in Reno permits a Indult mass, Las Vegas get with it.

Fogny

I don’t know why Bishop Pepe hasn’t yet.

 

[Fogny]

JKirkLVNV:

I know, Dr., but there is part of me (and I hope God forgives me) that would like the Holy Father to very calmly say to any bishop that threatens him with schism,“Do as you must, sir. Remember, though, it is we who hold the charism against which the gates of hell will never prevail. Those whom you mislead, we commend to the mercy of God. Be warned of the fate of shepherds who lead their flocks astray,however! How much more shall God hold them to account for that misleading.” I gotta stop this fantasy stuff! I’m sure you’re right about the long view, but mine would make a better movie!!!

I saw the Otto Preminger movie the other night “The Cardinal”, I hadn’t seen it since it first appeared. Not much has changed, but I was proud to be a Catholic.
Even then there was a rift between Rome and the U.S, you should watch it, a great movie.

Fogny

 

[Steve_Andersen]

Actually I’m a little confused as to what a “traditionalist” is

I know the old joke of course that they are the ones who think that they are more Catholic than the Pope. But that doesn’t help

When I think of tradition I think of the Church I grew up with in

While there was none of the hand waving and hand holding stuff
There was also none of the bible thumping/catechism thumping; an almost closed minded Protestant behavior, that I sometimes see in these forums

Nor was there the constant hand wringing and second guessing about, what seem to be, perfectly innocent behaviors.

The Church I grew up with was broadly based and made the faith a joy rather than a burden. It was the church that gave us the Renaissance and the Enlightenment.

It was spaghetti and meatball dinners in the school hall…and uniforms for the kids….and pomp and ceremony…and hymns you knew melodies to…and bingo nights with 50/50 baskets of cheer. It was about belonging

Shrug.
The nation as a whole has taken such a conservative slide over the past few decades. It is not the place I remember growing up in.

Are traditionalists those folks who are still pining away for the Latin Mass?

While it is pretty and everything…get over it.

 

[Fogny]

Steve Andersen:

Actually I’m a little confused as to what a “traditionalist” is

I know the old joke of course that they are the ones who think that they are more Catholic than the Pope. But that doesn’t help

When I think of tradition I think of the Church I grew up with in

While there was none of the hand waving and hand holding stuff
There was also none of the bible thumping/catechism thumping; an almost closed minded Protestant behavior, that I sometimes see in these forums

Nor was there the constant hand wringing and second guessing about, what seem to be, perfectly innocent behaviors.

The Church I grew up with was broadly based and made the faith a joy rather than a burden. It was the church that gave us the Renaissance and the Enlightenment.

It was spaghetti and meatball dinners in the school hall…and uniforms for the kids….and pomp and ceremony…and hymns you knew melodies to…and bingo nights with 50/50 baskets of cheer. It was about belonging

Shrug.
The nation as a whole has taken such a conservative slide over the past few decades. It is not the place I remember growing up in.

Are traditionalists those folks who are still pining away for the Latin Mass?

While it is pretty and everything…get over it.

Steve,

Maybe I am wrong but if I am a tradionalist it is for one reason, I love consistency. I like resturants that serve the same food as today or 40 years ago. I know that is rare but it is something I charish. Same with my religion, change is good, but when it happens to frequently and causes confusion and tormoil… enough said. Where does this resturant exist, all my favorites are Italian just like my Church.

Fogny

 

[Podo2004]

Annunciata:

I’m confused…. Who do you consider to be Traditional or Conservative?

I follow Novus Ordo and if I had the opportunity to attend a Latin Mass I would love to!

That said, I feel that I’m probably a Conservative…
I was recently called arrogant on another thread for my responses regarding an "isolated case* where my granddaughter is in training as an altar server…
Note Well, I was not condoning girls over boys as altar servers…just noting that my GD was doing it as an act of kindness to help her younger brother who was a little shy…
Her encouragement by training w/ him has given him the confidence to do so…

And I 100% support your GD becoming an altar server! I mean the honor of serving God, It’s just amazing… A similar case happened too in my parish.
( I just wish my brothers and sister would behave during mass and actually serve to the best of their ability, oh well i’m still training them)
God Bless
Podo

 

[katolik]

Supporting a female to become an altar boy is very detrimental to the Faith. It flips over the believe of an all male and only male priesthood and follows the Protestant “tradition”.

 

[dumspirospero]

I agree completely…we should not encourage females, nor allow them to become altar boys…forgive me for not saying “altar server”…I am not too much on political correctness. The altar boy positions are for young men wanting to serve God and are aspiring to become Priests…by allowing females, we are coming one step closer to allowing females into the Priesthood…I say NO

katolik:

Supporting a female to become an altar boy is very detrimental to the Faith. It flips over the believe of an all male and only male priesthood and follows the Protestant “tradition”.

 

[Steve_Andersen]

Fogny:

Steve,

Maybe I am wrong but if I am a tradionalist it is for one reason, I love consistency. I like resturants that serve the same food as today or 40 years ago. I know that is rare but it is something I charish. Same with my religion, change is good, but when it happens to frequently and causes confusion and tormoil… enough said. Where does this resturant exist, all my favorites are Italian just like my Church.

Fogny

Good analogy

I love consistency too. And sometimes I do find myself gritting my teeth in church because a cadence is different or folks are waving their hands in the air.

But then I realize that is an awfully venial thing to do. I shouldn’t loose sight of the big picture

In fact, sometimes since the rhythm is different, I find that I have to actively remember the words of some prayers rather than just go on automatic pilot with the cadences I learned as a kid. So maybe I’m learning something despite myself.

 

[platobomb]

I appreciate your view. As someone who was raised Presbyterian, but who has desired for over ten years to convert to Catholicism, I have twice started but not completed RCIA; in large part because so many of the masses seem like silly pep rallies organized by well meaning but misguided high school students. I don’t like the idea of standing up before God, especially, preferring the old mode of remaining properly kneeling before His awesome majesty. Well, you get my gist. God help me, I say, in trying to find a comfortable conversion.

 

[Dr.Bombay]

platobomb:

I appreciate your view. As someone who was raised Presbyterian, but who has desired for over ten years to convert to Catholicism, I have twice started but not completed RCIA; in large part because so many of the masses seem like silly pep rallies organized by well meaning but misguided high school students. I don’t like the idea of standing up before God, especially, preferring the old mode of remaining properly kneeling before His awesome majesty. Well, you get my gist. God help me, I say, in trying to find a comfortable conversion.

Keep searching, don’t give up. Even in LA there must be good priests and good parishes. Perhaps someone could point you in the right direction.

Of course, when you witness the behavior of certain Californios (8th generation, no less) on this board, you’ll also know what parishes to avoid.

Like the plague.

 

[JKirkLVNV]

dumspirospero:

I agree completely…we should not encourage females, nor allow them to become altar boys…forgive me for not saying “altar server”…I am not too much on political correctness. The altar boy positions are for young men wanting to serve God and are aspiring to become Priests…by allowing females, we are coming one step closer to allowing females into the Priesthood…I say NO

I still believe that the answer to this is to have fathers get involved and serve with their sons at the altar. You would kill two birds with one stone: more boys would be at the altar, because they would see their dads doing it and it would be the highest quality of “quality” time to spend with one’s son: assisting at the offering of the Sacrifice.

 

[dumspirospero]

Nice point…I like that.

JKirkLVNV:

I still believe that the answer to this is to have fathers get involved and serve with their sons at the altar. You would kill two birds with one stone: more boys would be at the altar, because they would see their dads doing it and it would be the highest quality of “quality” time to spend with one’s son: assisting at the offering of the Sacrifice.

 

[mtr01]

fix:

One of the main reasons we see two camps is because of the incredible abuses that occur with the NO. The Vatican has said so much several times. The Pope tries to correct them, but the rebellious ones will not serve.

Let me preface my remarks by saying that I deeply love the depths of our Catholic faith, and I often attend our indult Mass, as well as a local Byzantine Liturgy. That said, I wholeheartedly agree with what is stated above. However, it seems to me that the rebellious will be rebellious no matter what. Even if the Tridentine Mass was still the norm, I don’t think there is anything to suggest that our current crop of rebellious clerics would be any less rebellious. I find it reasonable to assume (unfortunately) that there would be just as many abuses (perhaps different in kind) in the TLM. It is the attitude of these clerics that causes the abuse, not the particular Missal in use.

Anyhow, that’s just my opinion…for whatever its worth.