Who Else Saw The Plates Besides Smith?

[pnewton]

Here we go again with that spirit of arrogance…do you really believe you can belittle the teachings of Christ, as found in The Book of Mormon, and get away with it?

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And here you go again begging the quesiton. We believe the Book of Morman a fake, a fraud, the words of a delusional, self-serving charlatan, until evidence shows us different. There is no genetic link to the Americas from Egypt, nothing known as Reformed Egyptian, and, most important here, no plates of gold.

 

[BOMC]

This is for you charlatan:

9 And when they shall have received this, which is expedient that they should have first, to try their faith, and if it shall so be that they shall believe these things then shall the greater things be made manifest unto them.
10 And if it so be that they will not believe these things, then shall the greater things be withheld from them, unto their condemnation. (3 Nephi 26)

Enjoy your day!

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[Jerusha]

And this thread you refuse to read?
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4688870

 

[BOMC]

And this thread you refuse to read?
http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=4688870

Refuse? That is old news. In fact, it proves Joseph did not write it. How you interpret that fact is up to you. How do I interpret it?

1. Mormon narrated, not re-wrote the different authors.
2. Original author word prints make it through the translation process.

Thus proving Joseph did not fabricate it, and the 22+ witnesses to the work were telling the truth. Powerful stuff!

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[Jerusha]

Joseph was not included among the authors they analyzed, so how can you reach that conclusion? The point that they made is that since JS worked with Oliver Cowdery, Parley Pratt individually at verious times, one cannot distinguish JS from either one.

Especially since his personality shows through several of the more bizarre passages?

You are so obviously grabbing for the straws that will confirm your beliefs.

 

[BOMC]

Not at all. Joseph did not translate anything, he merely read the English out, or dictated, nothing else.

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[pnewton]

This is for you charlatan

I have no idea what this sentence even means.

Enjoy your day!

I will. It is 60 degress and sunny.

 

[BOMC]

And here you go again begging the quesiton. We believe the Book of Morman a fake, a fraud, the words of a delusional, self-serving charlatan, until evidence shows us different. There is no genetic link to the Americas from Egypt, nothing known as Reformed Egyptian, and, most important here, no plates of gold.

I’m addressing you - the charlatan. Show me one thing in TBOM that offends Christ. You can’t do it. In fact, it preaches Christ over and over again. Unless you are anti-Jesus, why doesn’t any of that speak to you???

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[BOMC]

Who else saw the plates? Here you go:

Harrison G. Burgess

Finally (May 1833), I resolved to know whether I had proclaimed the truth or not, and commenced praying to the God of heaven, for a testimony of these things, when all at once the vision of my mind was opened, and a glorious personage clothed in white stood before me and exhibited to my view the plates, from which the Book of Mormon was taken. (Autobiography of Harrison Burgess, in Kenneth Glyn Hales, Windows, Tucson: Skyline Printing, 1985 p. 101.)

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[BOMC]

And another:

Luke Johnson

While there I (John D. Lee) met Luke Johnson (1846), one of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. I had a curiosity to talk with him concerning the same. We took a walk down on the river bank. I asked him if the statement he signed about seeing the angel and the plates, was true. If he did see the plates from which the Book of Mormon was printed or translated. He said it was true. I then said, ‘How is it that you have left the Church? If the angel appeared to you, and you saw the plates, how can you now live out of the Church? I understand you were one of the twelve apostles at the first organization of the Church?’ ‘I was one of the twelve,’ said he, 'I have not denied the truth of the Book of Mormon. (John D. Lee, Mormonism Unveiled or the Life and Confessions of the Late Bishop John D. Lee, St. Louis: Bryan, 1877, p. 184)

 

[BOMC]

And another:

Mary Whitmer

I have heard my grandmother (Mary Musselman Whitmer) say on several occasions that she was shown the plates of the Book of Mormon by a holy angel, whom she always called Brother Nephi. It was at the time, she said, when the translation was going on at the house of the elder Peter Whitmer, her husband. Joseph Smith with his wife and Oliver Cowdery, whom David Whitmer a short time previous had brought up from Harmony, Pennsylvania, were all boarding with the Whitmers, and my grandmother in having so many extra persons to care for, besides her own large household, was often overloaded with work to such an extent that she felt it to be quite a burden. One evening, when (after having done her usual day’s work in the house) she went to the barn to milk the cows, she met a stranger carrying something on his back that looked like a knapsack. At first she was a little afraid of him, but when he spoke to her in a kind, friendly tone and began to explain to her the nature of the work which was going on in her house, she was filled with inexpressible joy and satisfaction. He then untied his knapsack and showed her a bundle of plates, which in size and appearance corresponded with the description subsequently given by the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. This strange person turned the leaves of the book of plates over, leaf after leaf, and also showed her the engravings upon them; after which he told her to be patient and faithful in bearing her burden a little longer, promising that if she would do so, she should be blessed; and her reward would be sure, if she proved faithful to the end. The personage then suddenly vanished with the plates, and where he went, she could not tell. From that moment my grandmother was enabled to perform her household duties with comparative ease, and she felt no more inclination to murmur because her lot was hard. I knew my grandmother to be a good, noble and truthful woman, and I have not the least doubt of her statement in regard to seeing the plates being strictly true. She was a strong believer in the Book of Mormon until the day of her death. (Historical Record, Vol. 7, p. 621; Orson Pratt/Joseph F. Smith Interview, 7-8 September 1878, Richmond, Missouri, Joseph F. Smith Diary, Latter-day Saint Church Archives, in Cook, David Whitmer Interviews, p. 28.)

 

[BOMC]

A modern experience:

THE BOOK WOULD NOT BURN

The burning of the book came about in July 1942. My wife and I were engaged one summer day in burning a lot of rubbish such as old newspapers, magazines and so forth. We were cleaning the house and the place in general such as every one is want to do whenever the occasion necessitates.

In our activities, my wife found the copy of the Book of Mormon the elder left with us 18 years before. As soon I saw it, I was instantly seized by bitterness against the book. I was startled by a burning flash of anger that dug deep into my heart and stirred the fires of my contempt for the Book of Mormon into a blazing inferno that made me bedamn all the volume stood for.
Maliciously seizing the book, I swore to myself: “We will let all the trash burn together!”

I made my way hastily to the rear of the house, and in a furor threw my bundle upon a pile of rubbish that awaited burning. The Book of Mormon went on last to the top of the heap, opened, its pages exposed for the flames to come. I, forthwith, vehemently set the heap a fire and stood back to watch the fiery fingers leap up and consume the entire mass and the book especially.
In a little while I could see the rubbish would be reduced to a smoldering mound of waste, but the book was not responding satisfactorily. So I returned to the house, and brought out a can of kerosene oil. I was not to be out done! Throwing on the oil in great quantities, I muttered, “If this book be of man and devils, let it burn; otherwise I repent.”

The flames leaped several feet into the air in a wild burst of crimson fury. This time I commanded it to burn! The swirling fingers of fire and smoke hid the greater mass of the mound, and I was sure the book would be reduced to insignificance along with the newspapers and periodicals, rubbish, etc.
And then—the spirit that had visited me in the Milan Hotel suddenly returned and broke into my act of deviltry. Needless to say, I was startled. I could feel His presence as well as if someone in the flesh had appeared! A voice spoke to me beyond the bounds of mortality; yet it was understandable. It was a soft whisper, clear and discernable. I could feel and hear it.
The voice whispered: “Don’t do it, the book is truth.” “Don’t do it, the book is truth.”

The flames leaped up much higher than they had previously gone, and became so intense with heat I was forced far back from them. Surely it would burn now. It was inconceivable that a volume such as the one I had thrown to the flames could escape them now.
I obtained a long stick and began to turn the pages back and forth just to make sure they were exposed well enough to the fire. So intent was I on my task, that I became almost oblivious to my surroundings.

The whispering voice spoke to me again. It was that same still small voice that expressed disapproval of my act a few minutes before. The voice whispered gently but firmly as it had before those quiet yet resounding words, “Don’t do it the book is truth! Don’t do it, the book is truth!”

This second reprimand struck me with so much force that I became greatly alarmed. I needed no further remonstration so with haste, as the fire began to subside, I poked around in the flames with the long stick, and retrieved the remains of the volume from the heap. I rubbed the fire off the burning pages with my hands, and I saw that many of the pages were burned beyond reading, others were badly seared.

A sudden realization of the terrible, shameful deed that I had committed struck me with such force that it awakened my soul. My spirit became very contrite, and I was more sorrowful for the thing I had done that I can ever express.

I immediately sought forgiveness from the Divine One. The bitterness and passionate hatred that I had lavished upon the Book of Mormon turned at once to a humble love. The gall turned to sweetness, and I was filled with a desire to possess another copy of this sacred volume so I could read what it had to offer. I now wanted desperately to learn the secrets hidden between its covers.

I left the remains of the book for a while beside the ash heap, and later in the day I put it away in a shed that stood in the rear of the house. About a week later we moved into another cottage near by. In gathering up our belongings, I went for the book; but failed to find it.

Since that day it has been a deep puzzle to me where the book vanished. (Cecil Mathews, The Burning of the Book, pp 7-12)

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[Mystic_Warrior]

The Book of Mormon and Mormonism are not different. In fact, disbelieving in this is pure contradiction to what your general authorities teach and general church body teaches. According to them, you’d either be ill-informed or in a state of apostasy.

Your pick.

The Book of Mormon is distinct from the religion that grew up around it. I don’t mind the BOM. I do, however, find a lot of problems with the D&C and the group led by Brigham Young. Like BOMC, I know others who accept the BOM, but do not accept the Mormon church that grew up from the book.

It’s similar to accepting the Holy Bible, but dismissing the Catholic Church. You don’t have to be a Bible believer and a Catholic. You can be a Protestant. I’m just showing an analogy and not making a judgment on the Church. It’s an example.

 

[BOMC]

Now my own witness:

TBOM testifies of Christ. It’s purpose was to provide a confirmation of the birth and resurrection of Jesus Christ by being the Second Witness.

God knew and prophets foretold that the Messiah would be rejected. God therefore prepared early on what would come forth from another land, as the Second Witness, i.e. his “other sheep,” for the Jew, the Muslim, the DaVinci Coder’s, etc.

Also to confirm the gospel and put down all sectarianism. The gospel Jesus taught in TBOM is so plain, only a few raving lunatics could misunderstand it. Unfortunately Joseph went on contrary to the will of God and founded a church, tying The Book forever it would seem to it.

A sad result seeing that TBOM contains not a single “Mormon Doctrine.” Those came from other writings as found in the D&C, and were received outside of the divine anointing he had during the dictation of TBOM.

If God wanted him to a be a church leader as in the days of old, he would have retained the use of the Urim and Thumim, which he did not.

We detail these items and more at our different web sites starting with www.bomchristian.com, www.jsfellowship.com, www.bookofmormonchurch.com, and finally, where it all occurred at www.bookofmormongeography.info.

Help, by learning what TBOM says, what its purpose is, and how the adversary has succeeded to obscure it. We need people to speak the truth and bring it out from Mormonism and any other off-shoot of Joseph’s that is not following it.

All the best, and don’t hesitate to send us a note regarding how we can further the cause.

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[MelanieAnne]

Answer the question - What in TBOM supports Mormonism?

Learn how they’re different.

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I’m not interested in the quasi-Christian heresy known as Mormonism. And I submit that no Catholic posting to this forum is interested either. If you are looking for converts, you can make better use of your time elsewhere.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

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That there ever were a set of golden plates from God which Smith dug out of the earth seems very doubtful.

Exactly.

Rather than who else, the question could be did anyone one see any gold plates with “reformed” Egyptian writing on them around here?

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

The Book of Mormon is distinct from the religion that grew up around it. I don’t mind the BOM. I do, however, find a lot of problems with the D&C and the group led by Brigham Young. Like BOMC, I know others who accept the BOM, but do not accept the Mormon church that grew up from the book.

It’s similar to accepting the Holy Bible, but dismissing the Catholic Church. You don’t have to be a Bible believer and a Catholic. You can be a Protestant. I’m just showing an analogy and not making a judgment on the Church. It’s an example.

I also wanted to post a link that supports what I said earlier. He’s a Southern Baptist minister who preaches and embraces the BOM. He, like many others, believe in the “restoration gospel” movement which doesn’t really automatically make a person an affiliate to the Mormon church that most of us know today.

greaterthings.com/Ridenhour/

I used to have more links, but this one is the only one I could find now. Years ago, I studied the Book of Mormon and the religions that grew up around it. It’s just not accurate to say that you can’t separate the BOM from the LDS church. It’s rather easy to do so.

I’m not a secret Mormon or promoting the Mormon agenda.

Just trying to clarify a few things.

 

[pnewton]

I’m addressing you - the charlatan. Show me one thing in TBOM that offends Christ. You can’t do it. In fact, it preaches Christ over and over again. .

Me? I haven’t written anything and pretended it to be Sacred Writing. Do you even know the meaning of the word “charlatan”?

Unless you are anti-Jesus, why doesn’t any of that speak to you???

Once again begging the question. It does not speak to me because it is a faked book. From your website link

Do you know how to discern the Gospel of Jesus Christ? If it is in The Book of Mormon, how will you know it? By DNA or Archaeological Evidence? It is an adulterous generation that seeks for a sign.

It is liars and the rrauds that are reject facts that prove inconvenient. Where are these plates that substantiate that this is not a bogus book made up from the imagination fo Joseph Smith?

 

[BOMC]

I’m not interested in the quasi-Christian heresy known as Mormonism. And I submit that no Catholic posting to this forum is interested either. If you are looking for converts, you can make better use of your time elsewhere.

We have a Catholic priest who uses TBOM in his services, so don’t act so high and mighty that even you can’t benefit from TBOM - not Mormonism - big difference.

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[BOMC]

Me? I haven’t written anything and pretended it to be Sacred Writing. Do you even know the meaning of the word “charlatan”?

Once again begging the question. It does not speak to me because it is a faked book. From your website link
It is liars and the rrauds that are reject facts that prove inconvenient. Where are these plates that substantiate that this is not a bogus book made up from the imagination fo Joseph Smith?

Hey, if reading the word of God as found in TBOM does not drop you to your knees and cause you to repent, then clearly what you posted from the web site applies.