Who Else Saw The Plates Besides Smith?

[dianaiad]

Actually, right after Smith’s death in 1844, the believers who had followed Joseph began to split. Though the SLC group is by far the largest, there are many, many other sects with varying beliefs. Their history is documented also.

Yes there are. None of them, with the possible exception of the Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (now called "The Community of Christ and properly trinitarian) have more than two or three thousand members. Most, but not all, are polygamous. I have no idea which one BOMC belongs to…Strangites? No, I don’t think that’s it…

(shrug) Well, I hope he will tell us.

 

[BOMC]

Nothing about the fabricated book makes sense. I’m sorry you have fallen for the nonsense. This fabrication is not the word of God, it is not the result of anything Jesus did. You will be held accountable for those you lead astray. I submit you should stop doing that.

Sister, I’m not through with you. If this is true, (The Book of Mormon - not Mormonism), then it IS HUGE!!! and justifys respect, caution, and even a sincere look, and not this arm chair “I hate Mormons and all attached to it” nonsense. Come on, you’re better than that. What can it hurt?

.

 

[BOMC]

I have no idea which one BOMC belongs to…Strangites? No, I don’t think that’s it…(shrug) Well, I hope he will tell us.

Sure, no agendas here. TBOM pattern for community and church is awesome, something we can learn from. For example, it confirms that the believers are the “church.”

You could no sooner visit a “church” then you could visit yourself.

They had separate “places of worship” which is great, not unlike when Christians gather for a Christian concert. Powerful!!!

Can you see it now, Christians in every town coming together once a month and filling the largest public stadium in town for praise, prayer, and worship.

And of course places to study the law, like synagogues or public schools, whatever. This nonsense of building elaborate structures just to hear someone preach never existed, not in TBOM or the Bible, therefore we do not condone such acts by attending them.

.

 

[Mystic_Warrior]

Yes there are. None of them, with the possible exception of the Reformed Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (now called "The Community of Christ and properly trinitarian) have more than two or three thousand members. Most, but not all, are polygamous. I have no idea which one BOMC belongs to…Strangites? No, I don’t think that’s it…

(shrug) Well, I hope he will tell us.

When I began to research the various sects I was really, really surprised. Yes, of course, they are very small in numbers. I wish I could find the list I used to have. Yes, most are polygamous. Now I’m gonna have to pull out all the stops to find that information

Peace sister.

 

[ricko]

In the 26-volume collection of some of the early addresses of Mormon prophets known as Journal of Discourses, there is this enlightening statement,

“Some of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who had handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to **doubt and disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel” **(see Vol. 7., pg. 164).

So much for eyewitnesses. And that still leaves us with nobody seeing the plates.

 

[ricko]

I believe this statement sums up the main problem that Mormons have:

Several years ago I had a meeting with two young Mormon missionaries where we spent several hours examining the evidence for the authenticity of the BOM. Toward the end of the session it became evident to me that both young men were having some serious doubts about the historicity of the volume. At one point there was a pause in the conversation and the duo’s leader said with great emotion,

“Well, Mr. Cannon, despite what you’ve shown me here today, I have a testimony. [He laid his open hand on his chest.] And even if a resurrected Joseph Smith walked through that door and told me that the BOM was not true, I would not believe it, because I have a testimony that it is true, and this I testify to you in the power of the Holy Ghost!”
The bible was right. Remember the poor soul who went to hell and asked to go back to warn his brothers, Abraham said that they have the scriptures and if they would not believe them they would still not believe if you should come back from the dead. So Mormons would not believe the truth even if the dead should deliver it.

 

[BOMC]

In the 26-volume collection of some of the early addresses of Mormon prophets known as Journal of Discourses, there is this enlightening statement,…So much for eyewitnesses. And that still leaves us with nobody seeing the plates.

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[ricko]

Need an asprin?

 

[BOMC]

In the 26-volume collection of some of the early addresses of Mormon prophets known as Journal of Discourses, there is this enlightening statement.

A believer in Brigham Young now? Mormon’s don’t even trust every thing he said, besides, those witnesses were his arch enemy, did you think he would say something nice about them?

So much for eyewitnesses. And that still leaves us with nobody seeing the plates.

Read the following witnesses and weep:

Harrison G. Burgess

Finally (May 1833), I resolved to know whether I had proclaimed the truth or not, and commenced praying to the God of heaven, for a testimony of these things, when all at once the vision of my mind was opened, and a glorious personage clothed in white stood before me and exhibited to my view the plates, from which the Book of Mormon was taken. (Autobiography of Harrison Burgess, in Kenneth Glyn Hales, Windows, Tucson: Skyline Printing, 1985 p. 101.)

Luke Johnson

While there I (John D. Lee) met Luke Johnson (1846), one of the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. I had a curiosity to talk with him concerning the same. We took a walk down on the river bank. I asked him if the statement he signed about seeing the angel and the plates, was true. If he did see the plates from which the Book of Mormon was printed or translated. He said it was true. I then said, ‘How is it that you have left the Church? If the angel appeared to you, and you saw the plates, how can you now live out of the Church? I understand you were one of the twelve apostles at the first organization of the Church?’ ‘I was one of the twelve,’ said he, 'I have not denied the truth of the Book of Mormon. (John D. Lee, Mormonism Unveiled or the Life and Confessions of the Late Bishop John D. Lee, St. Louis: Bryan, 1877, p. 184)

Mary Whitmer

I have heard my grandmother (Mary Musselman Whitmer) say on several occasions that she was shown the plates of the Book of Mormon by a holy angel, whom she always called Brother Nephi. It was at the time, she said, when the translation was going on at the house of the elder Peter Whitmer, her husband. Joseph Smith with his wife and Oliver Cowdery, whom David Whitmer a short time previous had brought up from Harmony, Pennsylvania, were all boarding with the Whitmers, and my grandmother in having so many extra persons to care for, besides her own large household, was often overloaded with work to such an extent that she felt it to be quite a burden. One evening, when (after having done her usual day’s work in the house) she went to the barn to milk the cows, she met a stranger carrying something on his back that looked like a knapsack. At first she was a little afraid of him, but when he spoke to her in a kind, friendly tone and began to explain to her the nature of the work which was going on in her house, she was filled with inexpressible joy and satisfaction. He then untied his knapsack and showed her a bundle of plates, which in size and appearance corresponded with the description subsequently given by the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. This strange person turned the leaves of the book of plates over, leaf after leaf, and also showed her the engravings upon them; after which he told her to be patient and faithful in bearing her burden a little longer, promising that if she would do so, she should be blessed; and her reward would be sure, if she proved faithful to the end. The personage then suddenly vanished with the plates, and where he went, she could not tell. From that moment my grandmother was enabled to perform her household duties with comparative ease, and she felt no more inclination to murmur because her lot was hard. I knew my grandmother to be a good, noble and truthful woman, and I have not the least doubt of her statement in regard to seeing the plates being strictly true. She was a strong believer in the Book of Mormon until the day of her death. (Historical Record, Vol. 7, p. 621; Orson Pratt/Joseph F. Smith Interview, 7-8 September 1878, Richmond, Missouri, Joseph F. Smith Diary, Latter-day Saint Church Archives, in Cook, David Whitmer Interviews, p. 28.)

Is that head of yours hurting yet?

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

 

[BOMC]

I believe this statement sums up the main problem that Mormons have…Well, Mr. Cannon, despite what you’ve shown me here today, I have a testimony. [He laid his open hand on his chest.] And even if a resurrected Joseph Smith walked through that door and told me that the BOM was not true, I would not believe it, because I have a testimony that it is true, and this I testify to you in the power of th Holy Ghost!”

Read the following verses and weep some more:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. (1 Corinthians 2: 14)

For flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 16:17)

No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. (1 Corinthians 12:3)

Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? (Luke 24: 32)

You got the rich man and Lazarus all wrong. I presented over twenty witnesses to TBOM and you won’t believe them. Jesus says to YOU, though they would come back from the dead, plates in hand, you would still not believe BECAUSE YOU MUST HAVE FAITH!

It’s so easy, why won’t you believe? Did someone hurt you? Did you use to belong to the Mormon Church? You must forgive in order to receive the Holy Spirit, and believe.

.

 

[RebeccaJ]

It’s so easy, why won’t you believe? Did someone hurt you? Did you use to belong to the Mormon Church? You must forgive in order to receive the Holy Spirit, and believe.

.

I see you have held onto the LDS belief that God abandons people.

 

[BOMC]

I see you have held onto the LDS belief that God abandons people.

I have no idea what you just said. Put it in Christian terms if you can.

 

[MelanieAnne]

Sister, I’m not through with you. If this is true, (The Book of Mormon - not Mormonism), then it IS HUGE!!! and justifys respect, caution, and even a sincere look, and not this arm chair “I hate Mormons and all attached to it” nonsense. Come on, you’re better than that. What can it hurt?

.

I’m putting you on my ignore list. You may not be through with me but I am through with you. I’m sure you’ll adapt. Have a nice life.

 

[BOMC]

I’m putting you on my ignore list. You may not be through with me but I am through with you.

I asked that we stop the contention for a while and praise God. I noted that no one is praising God in these forums and suggested we be the first. I am appalled that no one has seconded the motion.

Is there a praise for God by anyone on these forums, or is that against the spirit inside everyone?

.

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally Posted by pnewton:
Great. Where are they today? Can we see them? Can they be tested for authenticity?

They are where they were. No we can’t, and probably, if we had them.

How about asking those same questions regarding the tablets upon which the ten commandments were written?

Hi

Sorry to interrupt the discussion. The tablets revealed on Moses are also mentioned in Quran (7:146, 7:151, 7:155).

[7:146] And We wrote for him upon the tablets about everything — an admonition and an explanation of all things. ‘So hold them fast and bid thy people follow the best thereof. Soon shall I show you the abode of the transgressors.’
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[7:147] I shall soon turn away from My Signs those who behave proudly in the land in an unjust manner; and even if they see all the Signs, they will not believe therein; and if they see the way of righteousness, they will not adopt it as their way; but if they see the way of error, they will adopt it as their way. That is because they treated Our Signs as lies and were heedless of them.
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[7:148] And those who disbelieve in Our Signs and the meeting of the Hereafter — their works are vain. Can they expect to be rewarded for anything except for what they do?
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[7:149] And the people of Moses made, in his absence, out of their ornaments a calf — a lifeless body producing a lowing sound. Did they not see that it spoke not to them, nor guided them to any way? They took it for worship and they were transgressors.

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[7:150] And when they were smitten with remorse and saw that they had indeed gone astray, they said, ‘If our Lord do not have mercy on us and forgive us, we shall surely be among the losers.’
________________________________________
[7:151] And when Moses returned to his people, indignant and grieved, he said, ‘Evil is that which you did in my place in my absence. Did you hasten to devise a way for yourselves without waiting for the command of your Lord?’ And he put down the tablets, and caught hold of his brother’s head, dragging him towards himself. He (Aaron) said, ‘Son of my mother, the people indeed deemed me weak, and were about to kill me. Therefore make not the enemies rejoice over me, and place me not with the unjust people.’
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[7:152] He (Moses) said, ‘My Lord, forgive me and my brother, and admit us to Thy mercy, and Thou art the Most Merciful of those who show mercy.’
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[7:153] As to those who took the calf for worship, wrath from their Lord shall overtake them and abasement in the present life. And thus do We reward those who invent lies.
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[7:154] But those who did evil deeds and repented after that and believed, surely thy Lord is thereafter Most Forgiving, Merciful.

________________________________________

[7:155] And when the anger of Moses was appeased, he took the tablets, and in their writing there was guidance and mercy for those who fear their Lord.
alislam.org/quran/search2/showChapter.php?submitCh=Read+from+verse%3A&ch=7&verse=145

I think it is not correct to believe that the tablets of stone or clay were physically sent from the heaven, it is symbolically described, in my opinion. If the Word of GodAllahYHWH were revealed on the heart of Moses for guidance of his people and Moses or anybody else wrote it on the stone and clay for convenience of his people that would be OK. Only the words of guidance from One-On-High are important; it is the duty of the people to preserve and secure them.

Thanks

 

[RAR]

A believer in Brigham Young now? Mormon’s don’t even trust every thing he said, besides, those witnesses were his arch enemy, did you think he would say something nice about them?

Read the following witnesses and weep:

Is that head of yours hurting yet?

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

I certainly don’t discount the word of eyewitnesses, I believe those testimonies are powerful. But we have to remember that people are easily manipulated and Satan feasts on the prideful. I for one would be terrified if an angel appeared to me and told me that everything the world knows as revelation was wrong and peddled by an abominable church. I’m at least humble enough to realize that this is an invitation to prideful self-importance.

Not to mention our Lord warned us that there would be false prophets and deceivers appearing even as angels… I think Gal 1:8 deserves a long hard, prayerful look by every Mormon. It just doesn’t get any more clear than that.

RAR

 

[RebeccaJ]

You must forgive in order to receive the Holy Spirit, and believe.

I have no idea what you just said. Put it in Christian terms if you can.

The idea that you must do X in order to be worthy of God’s presence; it is a LDS teaching. It is not a Christian teaching, as, Christians believe that God never stops calling us to Him. Never stops revealing the truth. And if He were waiting for anyone to be worthy, pretty much nothing would be going on as far as God is concerned, as we all sin.

Unless of course, you meant something else.

 

[RebeccaJ]

I asked that we stop the contention for a while and praise God. I noted that no one is praising God in these forums and suggested we be the first. I am appalled that no one has seconded the motion.

Is there a praise for God by anyone on these forums, or is that against the spirit inside everyone?

.

BOMC, you seem like a nice person and all, but perhaps you didn’t realize that attacking people doesn’t get them on board to your demands.

 

[BOMC]

I certainly don’t discount the word of eyewitnesses, I believe those testimonies are powerful.

That’s great!

But we have to remember that people are easily manipulated and Satan feasts on the prideful.

Correct, and Joseph Smith’s life is a good example of that.

His close friend and associated David Whitmer had those same sentiments when he said:

“When Joseph was humble, the communications he received were pure, when he was not, they were interspersed with his own machinations.” (paraphrased)

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We as Book of Mormon Christians only believe The Book of Mormon and what few revelations Joseph received that pertain to it. In particular, we respect what Mormon’s call D&C 10. That word of knowledge was received when Joseph was at his humblest, after losing his first born, and being betrayed by his friend Martin Harris.

It is a powerful word from the Lord describing the purpose of TBOM:

52 And now, behold, according to their faith in their prayers will I bring this part of my gospel to the knowledge of my people. Behold, I do not bring it to destroy that which they have received, but to build it up. (D&C 10)

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You said:

Not to mention our Lord warned us that there would be false prophets and deceivers appearing even as angels… I think Gal 1:8 deserves a long hard, prayerful look by every Mormon. It just doesn’t get any more clear than that.

Thank you for quoting that verse, and for others wondering what it says:

But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. (Galatians 1:8)

Of course Paul was referring to disciples from Jerusalem who demanded that Gentiles be circumcised as they were, something Paul knew was under the old law.

If one were to evaluate the gospel found in TBOM as we detail on our web site www.bomchristian.com, they would find that it matches the gospel Jesus taught in the NT.

The gospel Joseph developed after that as found in the D&C is not.

.

 

[BOMC]

BOMC, you seem like a nice person and all, but perhaps you didn’t realize that attacking people doesn’t get them on board to your demands.

Funny isn’t it. Someone begins a thread asking a simple question, people then post attacks on the Mormon Church and I separate TBOM from that church and provide further witnesses than most have heard, and you call that an attack?

I’ll give you points for not running and hiding like the others after the facts were given. An acknowledgment however, of how profound those testimonies are would be appropriate, like RAR did.

P.S. Regarding giving praise to Jesus in these forums, that is not a demand, it is a request, and so far no one has it in them to do so.

P.S.S. It is about praising God, nothing else.