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Shibboleth
Guest
We don’t have control over what languages we learn or where we choose to live? People cannot change these things or choose others?
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Tboy4Christ
Guest
You are contradicting yourself. In one phrase you say that "God does not want or even expect us to understand him infallibly. " And then go on to make the definitive statement “Our inability to understand God, our languages, and our distances are what separate us and cause denominations, it was God will that it is thus” So is your statement that God does not want us to understand him infallibly, infallible?? Or could it be you are mistaken in making this assumption???
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Shibboleth
Guest
Certain things are clear and certain things are not. Do you understand God fully and infallibly? Do you understand, “Thou shall not kill.”?You are contradicting yourself. In one phrase you say that "God does not want or even expect us to understand him infallibly. " And then go on to make the definitive statement “Our inability to understand God, our languages, and our distances are what separate us and cause denominations, it was God will that it is thus” So is your statement that God does not want us to understand him infallibly, infallible?? Or could it be you are mistaken in making this assumption???
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cmom
Guest
HOW OLD IS YOUR CHURCH?
IF YOU ARE a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.
IF YOU belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534, because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to re-marry.
IF YOU ARE a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.
IF YOU ARE a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.
IF YOU ARE a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.
IF YOU ARE of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.
IF YOU ARE a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.
IF YOU ARE a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
IF YOU ARE a Unitarian, Theophilius Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.
IF YOU ARE a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, NY, in 1829.
IF YOU worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
IF YOU ARE a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.
IF YOU belong to one of the religious organizations known as ‘‘Church of the Nazarene,’’ ‘‘Pentecostal Gospel,’’ ‘‘Holiness Church,’’ ‘‘Pilgrim Holiness Church,’’ ‘‘Jehovah’s Witnesses,’’ your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past one hundred years.
IF YOU ARE Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.
(Copyright 1997-1998, Catholic Truth Publications, PO Box 684, Monrovia, CA 91017-0684.)"
IF YOU ARE a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex-monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517.
IF YOU belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534, because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to re-marry.
IF YOU ARE a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560.
IF YOU ARE a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582.
IF YOU ARE a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605.
IF YOU ARE of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628.
IF YOU ARE a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century.
IF YOU ARE a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744.
IF YOU ARE a Unitarian, Theophilius Lindley founded your church in London in 1774.
IF YOU ARE a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, NY, in 1829.
IF YOU worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865.
IF YOU ARE a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder.
IF YOU belong to one of the religious organizations known as ‘‘Church of the Nazarene,’’ ‘‘Pentecostal Gospel,’’ ‘‘Holiness Church,’’ ‘‘Pilgrim Holiness Church,’’ ‘‘Jehovah’s Witnesses,’’ your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past one hundred years.
IF YOU ARE Roman Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ, the Son of God, and it is still the same Church.
(Copyright 1997-1998, Catholic Truth Publications, PO Box 684, Monrovia, CA 91017-0684.)"
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Shibboleth
Guest
When God flooded the Earth and we were to start over there was one town and one language. One could hold that that was the one town and language establish by God.
But it expanded and other towns were founded by the people that went there and it was a town none the less even though it was not the first. And that new town had a different name with different rules but it had all the properties of being a town therefore it was called a town.
And the people continued to grow and establish other towns under the rules that makes them a town and they carried the name of their founder, but it was still only a town.
Jesus came to Earth and there were a small group of people that followed him and they called themselves by one name, but as they grew other denominations were established under the names of their founders, but they were still catholic.
They the denominations differ in ways but they all carry with them that which makes them of the one church catholic.
But it expanded and other towns were founded by the people that went there and it was a town none the less even though it was not the first. And that new town had a different name with different rules but it had all the properties of being a town therefore it was called a town.
And the people continued to grow and establish other towns under the rules that makes them a town and they carried the name of their founder, but it was still only a town.
Jesus came to Earth and there were a small group of people that followed him and they called themselves by one name, but as they grew other denominations were established under the names of their founders, but they were still catholic.
They the denominations differ in ways but they all carry with them that which makes them of the one church catholic.
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MichaelTDoyle
Guest
What God wants is for us to Keep His commandments. We are to seek, yes, but the Good Shepherd did not leave his flock untended. He commisioned someone (Peter) to tend His sheep.
God can never condone evil. Being Truth he can never contradict Himself. Protest denominations have doctrinal contradictions on core issues of faith and salvation; hence, the denominations’ doctrines cannot be of God.
The argument that we cannot infallibly know God is not at issue, the argument is: Does God give us the requisite doctrines to avoid sin. If he did not, would he be a just God? The answer is he is a just God as evinced in his establishment of a normative means for knowing His commandments: The Church. He said he would establish it and He did.
Moreover, humans are relativistic, temporal creatures; God is Objective; hence, only He through His Holy Spirit, could guide the Church in faith and morals and so guard the leader of the Church, fulfilling Christ’s promise and leading the faithful through the thickets of moral issues arising in modern times.
For one example on how this is concrete, Euthenasia, abortion contraception, cloning, the Cathoilic church proclaims this consistant sanctity of life for 2,000 years, as the sheep who have wandered away slowly yield to the temptations of the times or the tickling of their ears.
Another argument for the Church being more than merely spiritual is Christ’s use of metaphor: rock. An obviously concrete term. Indeed, the fulfilment of the great commandment includes the body: Love the Lord with heart, soul, mind and body. Is it any wonder Catholics kneel so often and bow? The wonder is that others do not. God does not hate matter and he stated he would build a Church. Plainly he meant more than a “conceptual” Church.
Members of fallen away churches may be good God fearing people, but they are at greater risk as sheep who have wandered off from the appointed person to tend them until Christ’s second coming. And we all know how many bad voices seek to tempt and lead people astray . . . like MTV
(it’s true)
Peace
God can never condone evil. Being Truth he can never contradict Himself. Protest denominations have doctrinal contradictions on core issues of faith and salvation; hence, the denominations’ doctrines cannot be of God.
The argument that we cannot infallibly know God is not at issue, the argument is: Does God give us the requisite doctrines to avoid sin. If he did not, would he be a just God? The answer is he is a just God as evinced in his establishment of a normative means for knowing His commandments: The Church. He said he would establish it and He did.
Moreover, humans are relativistic, temporal creatures; God is Objective; hence, only He through His Holy Spirit, could guide the Church in faith and morals and so guard the leader of the Church, fulfilling Christ’s promise and leading the faithful through the thickets of moral issues arising in modern times.
For one example on how this is concrete, Euthenasia, abortion contraception, cloning, the Cathoilic church proclaims this consistant sanctity of life for 2,000 years, as the sheep who have wandered away slowly yield to the temptations of the times or the tickling of their ears.
Another argument for the Church being more than merely spiritual is Christ’s use of metaphor: rock. An obviously concrete term. Indeed, the fulfilment of the great commandment includes the body: Love the Lord with heart, soul, mind and body. Is it any wonder Catholics kneel so often and bow? The wonder is that others do not. God does not hate matter and he stated he would build a Church. Plainly he meant more than a “conceptual” Church.
Members of fallen away churches may be good God fearing people, but they are at greater risk as sheep who have wandered off from the appointed person to tend them until Christ’s second coming. And we all know how many bad voices seek to tempt and lead people astray . . . like MTV
(it’s true)Peace
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Shibboleth
Guest
I will conclude now.
My point in this was not to show that the Roman Catholic Church was the one and only church created by Christ, but to show that other denominations do not see themselves as founded by Luther, Calvin, etc…, although they might say so if asked without explanation of the question.
They all believe that they are founded by Christ, and for logical reasons. Like I said before I cannot hope to fully understand God, so it might be that the Roman Catholic Church is what it says it is…
…and I am definitely a very lost sheep.
My point in this was not to show that the Roman Catholic Church was the one and only church created by Christ, but to show that other denominations do not see themselves as founded by Luther, Calvin, etc…, although they might say so if asked without explanation of the question.
They all believe that they are founded by Christ, and for logical reasons. Like I said before I cannot hope to fully understand God, so it might be that the Roman Catholic Church is what it says it is…
…and I am definitely a very lost sheep.
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cmom
Guest
No.
There is only one city on a hill. The further away the little towns get away from the city, its way of life and rule of law, the less they are part of the picture. Go out far enough, and you are not related at all.
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MichaelTDoyle
Guest
So if a sect that worships Christ but proclaims SIN in its doctrines, would that also be Christ’s church? People grow and establish towns, according to their lives and needs and wants, but the Church is according to God. Your model has no shepherd, but Christ was a Good Shepherd. He would not abandon His flock. He sent to the old covenant prophets would he care for the new covenant less?
To say Catholic is conceptual is to say Christ lied when he promised to build a Church. If you have reached the courageous point in your life that you recognize Jesus IS Lord, the next courageous spiritual and logically following step is to recognize that the Christ founded His Catholic Church. He founded it for YOU and Me. Jesus is the Good Shepherd, never lax, always vigilant, whose Holy Spirit convicts us and guards His Church.
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Carl
Guest
Shibboleth
“Why would God make the Pope infallable but not the decendants of Moses?”
Perhaps because although the Jews were the Chosen people, they were first of all the instrument by which Jesus would come and save mankind. It was reserved for Jesus to give the final good news and point the direction for all of us to go. Until that happened, no Jew would ever have the moral authority, wisdom, justice, and mercy to preach the great truths that would have to be protected from then on by Peter and his Successors.
Even the Jews complied with God’s plan by the fact that they never bothered to claim in one person the infallible authority Jesus conferred on Peter. Moses comes as close as anyone to matching the authority of a Pope for the Jews. But he was never succeeded, nor did the Jews want him to be succeeded, by another like him. Perhaps because of what Jesus called the hardness of their hearts, it was all they could do to stomach Moses.
“Why would God make the Pope infallable but not the decendants of Moses?”
Perhaps because although the Jews were the Chosen people, they were first of all the instrument by which Jesus would come and save mankind. It was reserved for Jesus to give the final good news and point the direction for all of us to go. Until that happened, no Jew would ever have the moral authority, wisdom, justice, and mercy to preach the great truths that would have to be protected from then on by Peter and his Successors.
Even the Jews complied with God’s plan by the fact that they never bothered to claim in one person the infallible authority Jesus conferred on Peter. Moses comes as close as anyone to matching the authority of a Pope for the Jews. But he was never succeeded, nor did the Jews want him to be succeeded, by another like him. Perhaps because of what Jesus called the hardness of their hearts, it was all they could do to stomach Moses.
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Nikki
Guest
It’s not that God doesn’t want us to understand Him fully, it’s that we’re incapable of it. Even the saints don’t fully know him. Heaven isn’t a stagnant existence, but a place where we can learn about God for eternity. Our limitations exist because we are a creation. A creation can never fully understand it’s creator because it is not the Creator.
Lucky for us, God has chosen to reveal himself. He has done it piece by piece whenever we were ready for it. He began with one man and brought more people in until everyone was included. Simultaneously, he gave us more and more knowledge about himself. All the pieces were in place beginning with Pentecost for what he wishes us to know about him in our short time here.
Understanding him infallibly is not equivalent to understanding him fully. Infallible teaching is a teaching free from error. This does not mean that we know everything, but that what is taught by the Church is infallible because the Holy Spirit preserves her teachings just as He preserved the stories recorded in the Bible from error even through a solely oral tradition.
God can expect us to know him infallibly because he gave us three infallible sources that can’t contradict eachother (or else it’s not an infallible teaching): the Bible, ecumenical councils, and the pope. God creates diversity among ethnic lines because each culture is a reflection of Him in some way. Having that kind of unity would obviously limit our understanding in some way. There was also the problem when referring to the Tower of Babel that the people thought they could reach God on their own (without His help). Original sin makes this impossible. The Tower proves that when we become united politically and ethnically, we begin to believe that we can do anything despite the wishes of God.
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StCatherine
Guest
I think it is hard for people to answer because in many cases there is not a single person but perhaps a group of people. Also, many Protestants, especially evangelical, do not seem to think that is relevant. I think one could say that King Henry founded the Anglicans, John Wesley founded the Methodists, Martin Luther founded the Lutherans. But Wesley did not really care to start a church, he just wanted to reform the Anglican which he was part of. Same with Martin Luther. He did not really intend to start a church but reform the Catholic church. Calvin would be the Presbyterian founder.
Protestants don’t generally think about it that way though, especially not evangelical, fundamental, pentecostal and/or independent. Their view of the church is not institutional. When it starts to get institutional they leave it and start another one. I don’t really understand it all. When I tell a loved one that the Catholic church is the original church and that the Bible came from the Catholic church they just tell me I’ve been brainwashed. And they dont’ believe the Catholic church was founded by Christ. They concede that its old but will say it was actually founded by Constantine who corrupted the church by mixing it with the state and pagan practices.
And the Orthodox say they are the original church and that the Catholic church pulled away from them.
Protestants don’t generally think about it that way though, especially not evangelical, fundamental, pentecostal and/or independent. Their view of the church is not institutional. When it starts to get institutional they leave it and start another one. I don’t really understand it all. When I tell a loved one that the Catholic church is the original church and that the Bible came from the Catholic church they just tell me I’ve been brainwashed. And they dont’ believe the Catholic church was founded by Christ. They concede that its old but will say it was actually founded by Constantine who corrupted the church by mixing it with the state and pagan practices.
And the Orthodox say they are the original church and that the Catholic church pulled away from them.
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Millie
Guest
Thanks to cmom for the origin of non-Catholic Churches.
Growing up a Baptist, we were always told that we weren’t
a “protestant” church, but they never explained just what we
were.
Which leads me to what happened at Wheaton College
recently. Cardinal George was there to give an “ecuminical”
talk, and then he took questions. Of course I knew what the
first one would be and I was right. It was “Are you saved?”
He didn’t know how to answer that one! I can sympathize with
him. I grew up in Wheaton and went to Wheaton College for
one year (Billy Graham’s alma mater) and I still couldn’t
figure that one out! Still can’t, and after 50 years as a
Catholic, I don’t think I’ll ever know.
Anyone have any answers to either of these questions?
Growing up a Baptist, we were always told that we weren’t
a “protestant” church, but they never explained just what we
were.
Which leads me to what happened at Wheaton College
recently. Cardinal George was there to give an “ecuminical”
talk, and then he took questions. Of course I knew what the
first one would be and I was right. It was “Are you saved?”
He didn’t know how to answer that one! I can sympathize with
him. I grew up in Wheaton and went to Wheaton College for
one year (Billy Graham’s alma mater) and I still couldn’t
figure that one out! Still can’t, and after 50 years as a
Catholic, I don’t think I’ll ever know.
Anyone have any answers to either of these questions?
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Matthew-John
Guest
Well, the smart-alek remark to the salvation question is, “Oh, about 2,000 years ago when Christ gave his life for us.”
Not very satisfying, at any level, personally, morally, or theologically. But, like I said, smart-alek remark.
And before anyone feels the need to correct me, the devoloping answer I give when people ask me is, 'I will not claim salvation until the moment I can peer into the fullness of God’s Infinite Glory and live within His presence for all eternity. At that moment, when God sais unequivocably to me that I am saved, then, I will be saved."
Not very satisfying, at any level, personally, morally, or theologically. But, like I said, smart-alek remark.
And before anyone feels the need to correct me, the devoloping answer I give when people ask me is, 'I will not claim salvation until the moment I can peer into the fullness of God’s Infinite Glory and live within His presence for all eternity. At that moment, when God sais unequivocably to me that I am saved, then, I will be saved."
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juno24
Guest
Millie,
One of the best answers I have ever heard in regards to the “Are you saved” question is this: I was saved (by virtue of my Baptism), I continue to be saved (by God’s Grace working in my life), and I hope to be saved at the end.
I’m sorry I cannot remember who put it that way, but like I said it is one of the best responses I have ever heard.
Salvation is not a one-time event, to be packed away as a keepsake from a “conversion event”. It is something that is worked out daily, the result of which will not be determined until the very end.
As for the 2nd question-- I’m sorry, but I must be awefully dense today (not an unusual thing for someone with fibromyalgia!). I only saw one question in your post. If there is another one that I missed, could you rephrase it?
Have a great day!
Judy
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hawkeye
Guest
James_2:24 said:
True James, the Catholic Church is not a denomination, they rest are.
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Katholikos
Guest
What was Cardinal George’s exact response when asked “Are you saved”?
This is a typical Protestant “gotcha” question, and if the questioner did not hear the answer he wanted to hear, it was likely reported that “the Cardinal did not know what to say.” Cardinal George is very articulate and I doubt that he was at a loss for words.
Catholics do not think in these terms. No one is assured of his salvation, thus no one can say (as Protestants do) “yes, I am saved.”
**As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).
It is the sin of presumption to assume that one is saved before God answers the question definitively!
Ave Cor Mariae, Jay
This is a typical Protestant “gotcha” question, and if the questioner did not hear the answer he wanted to hear, it was likely reported that “the Cardinal did not know what to say.” Cardinal George is very articulate and I doubt that he was at a loss for words.
Catholics do not think in these terms. No one is assured of his salvation, thus no one can say (as Protestants do) “yes, I am saved.”
**As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).
It is the sin of presumption to assume that one is saved before God answers the question definitively!
Ave Cor Mariae, Jay
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jeffersonb73
Guest
James_2:24 said:
I agree. The Catholic Church is the Church that Christ established. The Protestant churches are schismatic sects that split off from the one Church established by Christ. We must be loving towards Protestants, but we must also be careful not to equate their sects with the one and only Catholic Church that was established by Christ.
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JesusIsTheWay
Guest
Jesus founded my denomination!!!
Actually I don’t claim any particular denomination because I don’t fully agree with any one doctrine. I find unbiblical flaws in all of them. But I AM in the Body of Christ which IS most important no?
Understand though, I am not one who mix and matches denominations, pulls out their favorite parts and creates another “ISM”
But I believe in all Jesus teaches, with all my heart and soul…
Actually I don’t claim any particular denomination because I don’t fully agree with any one doctrine. I find unbiblical flaws in all of them. But I AM in the Body of Christ which IS most important no?
Understand though, I am not one who mix and matches denominations, pulls out their favorite parts and creates another “ISM”
But I believe in all Jesus teaches, with all my heart and soul…
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rod_of_iron
Guest
If the protestant groups were once a part of the Catholic church, then there church history would go back as far as the Catholic church. Were Luther and Wesley and other founders of these Protestant churches ordained in the Catholic church? If so, they would get their authority from the Catholic church and would be able to trace their history back through the Catholic church.
Also, it seems to be the common belief among the Catholics that their church was founded by Christ in 33 A.D. But how do you prove it?
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