J
JesusIsTheWay
Guest
rod of iron:
There is no written documentation to support it…
Actually you can’t prove it :nope:
There is no written documentation to support it…
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R
rod_of_iron
Guest
Actually, no. Joseph Smith did not found a denomination. But the Church of Jesus Christ was restored through him. The church that was restored through him was the same church that Jesus established with Adam and Eve. The same church was restored through Enoch, and continued through his son Methuselah after Enoch and Enoch’s city was translated into heaven. The same church was restored through Moses, but the people rebelled, so God took away the higher authority from them. The same church was then restored again through Jesus when He dwelt bodily upon the Earth. Then, for the last time, Jesus restored His same church in 1830 through Joseph Smith. The Mormon church is not a continuation of the church that was restored through Joseph Smith. The Mormon church as it exists was founded by Brigham Young in or around 1852. The church restored through Joseph Smith still exists on the Earth today, but it is not the Mormon church. Just a bit of clarification for you.
My church was founded by Jesus Christ and established with Adam and Eve.
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rod_of_iron
Guest
If it cannot be prove due to lack of documentation, then the claim by the Catholic church that it was founded by Jesus Christ in 33 A.D. is just opinion.
J
JesusIsTheWay
Guest
rod of iron:
Also the Protestants, Luther and Wesley (and others), broke away from the Papacy and it’s authority, so I don’t think the “church” would ordain them. However, the Protestant movement have, over time, reaccepted some Catholic Doctrine, so… oh well…
J
JesusIsTheWay
Guest
rod of iron:
Hmmmm… I wouldn’t say an opinion… more like mis-information…
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rod_of_iron
Guest
If Luther, Wesley, and others were already ordained ministers of the Catholic church before they parted with the church, then they would still have the authority of the Catholic church, unless it could proven that they apostatized. The Catholic church’s claim that these reformers apostatized would not hold water, because its claims would be self-serving. They would have to say that the reformers had apostatized or admit that they had done so.
K
Katholikos
Guest
RodofIron, Jesusistheway,
The New Testament is a document which details the birth of the Church and its spiritual life for about the first 100 years of its existence. Jesus didn’t give the Church a name because it didn’t need a name – it was one-of-a-kind – so he just called it “My Church.” Few historical events have as much supporting evidence as the Church. The NT has been studied for centuries. One of its “books” tells of the Church’s birth at Pentecost gives us a brief history of its beginning activities including its first council meeting – the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). (Vatican II was the last.)
The NT is ample evidence that Jesus founded a Church and that the Apostles were appointed its leaders. He commanded the Apostles to teach “all that I have commanded you” and promised them that He would send the Spirit to “teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you” (Jn 14-26).
He also said, "He who hears you hears me . . . (Lk 10:16).
Peter, Matthew, and John wrote to the Church. Some of their disciples also wrote, and thus we have the New Testament, written mostly by second-tier Christians. The last Apostle, John, died about 100 A.D. His student, Ignatius, wrote in 107 A.D. "Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrnaeans). The name Catholic has been used since when referring to the Church, but the Church usually calls herself simply “the Church” just as Christ did.
We know from other writings that Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, was a student of St. John, was consecrated a Bishop by St. Peter, and was friends with St. Paul. We know that he wrote 7 letters to the Churches along his route while being taken to Rome, under guard, to be thrown to the lions in the Coliseum, for the crime of being Catholic. And we know from historical records that his death occurred in 110 A.D.
Another early document, The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (c. 156 A.D.), is addressed to “… all the communities of the holy and Catholic Church residing in any place . . .”
The life of the Church has been amply documented for the last 2,000 years, since its founding by Jesus Christ. There’s a group you should meet known as the pre-Nicene Early Church Fathers (before 325 A.D.) and the post-Nicene Church Fathers (325 through the 8th century).
Sorry, but neither of you knows your history. As John Henry Cardinal Newman wrote in Essays in the Development of Christian Doctrine, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.” He wrote the book to prove the Church wrong. (He was an Anglican clergyman.) When he had finished the book, he put down his pen, called a priest, and became a Catholic.
Oremus pro invicem, Jay
The New Testament is a document which details the birth of the Church and its spiritual life for about the first 100 years of its existence. Jesus didn’t give the Church a name because it didn’t need a name – it was one-of-a-kind – so he just called it “My Church.” Few historical events have as much supporting evidence as the Church. The NT has been studied for centuries. One of its “books” tells of the Church’s birth at Pentecost gives us a brief history of its beginning activities including its first council meeting – the Council of Jerusalem (Acts 15). (Vatican II was the last.)
The NT is ample evidence that Jesus founded a Church and that the Apostles were appointed its leaders. He commanded the Apostles to teach “all that I have commanded you” and promised them that He would send the Spirit to “teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you” (Jn 14-26).
He also said, "He who hears you hears me . . . (Lk 10:16).
Peter, Matthew, and John wrote to the Church. Some of their disciples also wrote, and thus we have the New Testament, written mostly by second-tier Christians. The last Apostle, John, died about 100 A.D. His student, Ignatius, wrote in 107 A.D. "Where the bishop appears, there let the people be, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church (Letter to the Smyrnaeans). The name Catholic has been used since when referring to the Church, but the Church usually calls herself simply “the Church” just as Christ did.
We know from other writings that Ignatius, Bishop of Antioch, was a student of St. John, was consecrated a Bishop by St. Peter, and was friends with St. Paul. We know that he wrote 7 letters to the Churches along his route while being taken to Rome, under guard, to be thrown to the lions in the Coliseum, for the crime of being Catholic. And we know from historical records that his death occurred in 110 A.D.
Another early document, The Martyrdom of St. Polycarp (c. 156 A.D.), is addressed to “… all the communities of the holy and Catholic Church residing in any place . . .”
The life of the Church has been amply documented for the last 2,000 years, since its founding by Jesus Christ. There’s a group you should meet known as the pre-Nicene Early Church Fathers (before 325 A.D.) and the post-Nicene Church Fathers (325 through the 8th century).
Sorry, but neither of you knows your history. As John Henry Cardinal Newman wrote in Essays in the Development of Christian Doctrine, “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.” He wrote the book to prove the Church wrong. (He was an Anglican clergyman.) When he had finished the book, he put down his pen, called a priest, and became a Catholic.
Oremus pro invicem, Jay
J
jeffersonb73
Guest
Thank you. You said it much better than I could. The mis-information actually lies with the Protestants, not the Catholics. I found that out after I embarked on a 3 year study of Church history. Imagine my surprise when I discovered that the early Church was indeed very Catholic. Most Protestants are ignorant of Church history. If they weren’t, they’d be Catholics.
My RCIA teacher (who is a convert from Protestantism) told me a few months ago that anyone who researches Church history (as she and I did) will become Catholic, because the evidence is so strong.
I pray that Christ will have mercy on Protestants for speaking against His Church. I pray that they will see the truth and enter the Church that Christ established.
R
reggie
Guest
Rod of Iron, do you even know who Joseph Smith was and what he was like? How can you even begin to equate him with Jesus, Son of God, the Word Incarnate, Emmanuel(God among us)?
To think that God would use someone of his character to “restore” the true church is so ridiculous as to be laughable if it weren’t so sad that so many good people are misled by his convoluted doctrines and self serving church teaching! He was a liar and charleton and an adulterer who used his leadership to promote his own perversions and cons on gullible people. Truly you cannot believe that he is in any way to be compared to Jesus who was WITHOUT SIN and never led people into sin. You may believe in Mormonism, you may believe that some day you will be a god and have your own planet to populate you may believe all manner of things, but there is only ONE through whom you will be with God in eternity and that is JESUS the Christ. The Catholic Church has handed down that which was given to them through the Apostles and their followers. It has not changed, it does not serve itself, it works to the salvation of all men who would seek the truth and accept the grace of Jesus. May you one day know the truth and may that truth set you free. I pray for you and all the Mormons I know who are good people lost to apostasy.
To think that God would use someone of his character to “restore” the true church is so ridiculous as to be laughable if it weren’t so sad that so many good people are misled by his convoluted doctrines and self serving church teaching! He was a liar and charleton and an adulterer who used his leadership to promote his own perversions and cons on gullible people. Truly you cannot believe that he is in any way to be compared to Jesus who was WITHOUT SIN and never led people into sin. You may believe in Mormonism, you may believe that some day you will be a god and have your own planet to populate you may believe all manner of things, but there is only ONE through whom you will be with God in eternity and that is JESUS the Christ. The Catholic Church has handed down that which was given to them through the Apostles and their followers. It has not changed, it does not serve itself, it works to the salvation of all men who would seek the truth and accept the grace of Jesus. May you one day know the truth and may that truth set you free. I pray for you and all the Mormons I know who are good people lost to apostasy.
E
Eric_Hyom
Guest
Hello all, I hope I won’t cause too many problems with my first post.
Recently the Pope has been asking for forgiveness for the things done in the name of the Catholic Church, namely the inquisitions. I would also like to add the selling of indulgencies.
It seems Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church because he felt that the church wasn’t following in the footsteps of Christ through these actions.
He felt that the Catholic Church was not right and there was a need for change.
Could he have had a greater reforming voice if ha had stayed within the Catholic Church?
Who can know?
I can admire his courage to try and change the injustice that he perceived happening; it was at a time when death was the penalty for going against authority.
Did the Catholic Church need some sort of reformation at the time; I would have to say yes.
That was centuries ago, but what should we do today, how should we relate to people who are the same but different to us, I am a Catholic.
Peace
Eric
Recently the Pope has been asking for forgiveness for the things done in the name of the Catholic Church, namely the inquisitions. I would also like to add the selling of indulgencies.
It seems Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church because he felt that the church wasn’t following in the footsteps of Christ through these actions.
He felt that the Catholic Church was not right and there was a need for change.
Could he have had a greater reforming voice if ha had stayed within the Catholic Church?
Who can know?
I can admire his courage to try and change the injustice that he perceived happening; it was at a time when death was the penalty for going against authority.
Did the Catholic Church need some sort of reformation at the time; I would have to say yes.
That was centuries ago, but what should we do today, how should we relate to people who are the same but different to us, I am a Catholic.
Peace
Eric
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rod_of_iron
Guest
Yes, I do. He was a servant of God.
Who equated Joseph Smith with Jesus? Not me.
What character was that? Was his character any worse than Moses, who murdered an Egyptian? Was his character any worse than Solomon who had so many wives and concubines that it blows the mind? Was his character any worse than Judas, who betrayed Jesus? Was his character any worse than Peter, who denied Jesus three times and who Jesus called Satan when He told Peter to get behind Him? How bad was this Joseph Smith who you think you know?
What did he lie about? How was he a charleton? Who did he commit adultery with? What perversions and cons are you referring to?
(continued …)
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rod_of_iron
Guest
Of course not! Jesus is my Savior, not Joseph Smith. I have never claimed that Joseph Smith can be compared to Jesus, because Jesus is God in the flesh. Joseph Smith was not. Neither was the Apostle Peter.
I don’t believe in Mormonism. I believe in Jesus Christ, His gospel, and His doctrine.
I don’t believe that I will become a god. There is only one God. No other gods can exist. No human can become a god.
I don’t believe that I will have my own planet to populate.
I agree. The only way to receive salvation is through Jesus Christ. I cannot earn my own salvation, nor can I earn it for someone else.
The Catholic church has become corrupted over the centuries. The apostasy of that church did not happen overnight. The apostasy came by a series of bad decisions by Catholic leaders as well as the incorporating of beliefs of the pagans and barbarians into the Catholic belief after converting these groups of people to the church. But you can believe that the Catholic church has not changed if you want to.
R
ralphinal
Guest
rod of iron:
For the most part, when they taught heresy they left the church. Luther would be the first to admit that he left, even though he was not a lutherin, as you understand it. For the most part, protestant churches grew for political reasons. Does that change your veiw? I find it intersting that you claim the Catholic Church has added pagan ideas. Tell me one that you can prove.
B
bbas_64
Guest
Good day, Hawkeye
The definition of the word sinks you here:
A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy.
Peace to u,
Bill
A
Anglo-catholic
Guest
Forgive my license with the scriptures:
The Vine has many branches and you will know them by their fruits.
Jesus taught little doctrine (Love one another!)
What denomination was the “good thief”?
These dialogues always boiled down to us and them!
Are we all devils working against the true church? or just misguided Christians?
We’ll all have a good laugh when we meet in heaven. God bless.
The Vine has many branches and you will know them by their fruits.
Jesus taught little doctrine (Love one another!)
What denomination was the “good thief”?
These dialogues always boiled down to us and them!
Are we all devils working against the true church? or just misguided Christians?
We’ll all have a good laugh when we meet in heaven. God bless.
J
JoaoMachado
Guest
rod of iron:
Joao
And this has been revealed to you, how?
Joao
L
latisha1903
Guest
Christ Jesus…
[going to cause some controversy, but oh well i’m going to but what i know and believe]
I am Christian, who attends services at a local Church of Christ [not ICoC, UCC, or anything connected to the Boston Movement or Campbelites…a misconception many have about the Church]
Because it would take me forever to post about the CoC…links are provided…that defend the faith.[these are not creeds, or ‘official documents’ these are simply written by members of the Church, providing information on the Church…like articles…insigh] I must go eat now…
fifthwardcoc.org/ [my uncle’s Church…just a good website]
wecaretracts.homestead.com/T23.html
mclishchurchofchrist.com/nc1.htm
housetohouse.com/hth/archives/v8n6/v8n6p7a.htm#Facts%20about%20the%20New%20Testament%20Church
housetohouse.com/hth/biblequestions/archive/question0022.htm
[going to cause some controversy, but oh well i’m going to but what i know and believe]
I am Christian, who attends services at a local Church of Christ [not ICoC, UCC, or anything connected to the Boston Movement or Campbelites…a misconception many have about the Church]
Because it would take me forever to post about the CoC…links are provided…that defend the faith.[these are not creeds, or ‘official documents’ these are simply written by members of the Church, providing information on the Church…like articles…insigh] I must go eat now…
fifthwardcoc.org/ [my uncle’s Church…just a good website]
wecaretracts.homestead.com/T23.html
mclishchurchofchrist.com/nc1.htm
housetohouse.com/hth/archives/v8n6/v8n6p7a.htm#Facts%20about%20the%20New%20Testament%20Church
housetohouse.com/hth/biblequestions/archive/question0022.htm
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Delgadoajj
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by rod of iron
“The Catholic church has become corrupted over the centuries. The apostasy of that church did not happen overnight. The apostasy came by a series of bad decisions by Catholic leaders as well as the incorporating of beliefs of the pagans and barbarians into the Catholic belief after converting these groups of people to the church. But you can believe that the Catholic church has not changed if you want to.”
Assertions Opposed?
Now, this assertion is diametrically opposed to the assertion Jesus gave to Peter found in Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”
Explain to me how the Holy Spirit can contradict himself?
Impecability? Also:
The fact that individuals in the Church have been, and are impiuos, corrupt, and not impecable (impecable means without sin), says nothing negative about the validity and genuineness of the Catholic Church. In fact, it evens strengthens the point that it is the True Church. Please note that infallibility does not mean impecability. These two are completely different concepts.
God’s Wisdom. :bible1: Jesus made Peter, one of the weakest, leader of his Church. Peter even denied Jesus three times, yet Peter became leader of the Church. If you talk about disappointing Jesus, Peter was the first one to do it, yet, this fact didn’t play a negative part in Peter’s role in the Church. If your assertion is right, then the first one to have been an apostate was Peter. So you’re saying that the Church was in apostacy even before there was a church? How can this be?
Bad decisions? Again, as long as there are humans, there will also be bad decisions. This doesn’t say anything about the veracity of the Catholic Church. Accepting this argument would imply that the Holy Spirit (who Jesus promised His Church), would contradict himself. The Holy Spirit would be with His Church in the good times and the bad times, you see. Think about it, if this weren’t true the Catholic Church would have ceased to exist more than a millennia ago. :tsktsk:
In Christ,
Jorge.
Originally Posted by rod of iron
“The Catholic church has become corrupted over the centuries. The apostasy of that church did not happen overnight. The apostasy came by a series of bad decisions by Catholic leaders as well as the incorporating of beliefs of the pagans and barbarians into the Catholic belief after converting these groups of people to the church. But you can believe that the Catholic church has not changed if you want to.”
Assertions Opposed?
Now, this assertion is diametrically opposed to the assertion Jesus gave to Peter found in Matthew 16:18: “You are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”Explain to me how the Holy Spirit can contradict himself?
Impecability? Also:
The fact that individuals in the Church have been, and are impiuos, corrupt, and not impecable (impecable means without sin), says nothing negative about the validity and genuineness of the Catholic Church. In fact, it evens strengthens the point that it is the True Church. Please note that infallibility does not mean impecability. These two are completely different concepts.God’s Wisdom. :bible1: Jesus made Peter, one of the weakest, leader of his Church. Peter even denied Jesus three times, yet Peter became leader of the Church. If you talk about disappointing Jesus, Peter was the first one to do it, yet, this fact didn’t play a negative part in Peter’s role in the Church. If your assertion is right, then the first one to have been an apostate was Peter. So you’re saying that the Church was in apostacy even before there was a church? How can this be?
Bad decisions? Again, as long as there are humans, there will also be bad decisions. This doesn’t say anything about the veracity of the Catholic Church. Accepting this argument would imply that the Holy Spirit (who Jesus promised His Church), would contradict himself. The Holy Spirit would be with His Church in the good times and the bad times, you see. Think about it, if this weren’t true the Catholic Church would have ceased to exist more than a millennia ago. :tsktsk:
In Christ,
Jorge.
D
Delgadoajj
Guest
BTW. 
My admission of corrupt individuals in the Church does not in any way mean that the Church espouses pagan beliefs, as rod of iron indicated in his original comment.
The Church grew over the centuries, and some pagan tradition (note small “t”) were continued in the Church. For example, and I ask anyone who is married: Do you wear a wedding ring? If you do, then according to rod of iron, you have made a bad decision in incorporating a pagan belief into your Christian faith. Therefore, you are corrupt, and an apostate.
In Christ,
Jorge
My admission of corrupt individuals in the Church does not in any way mean that the Church espouses pagan beliefs, as rod of iron indicated in his original comment.The Church grew over the centuries, and some pagan tradition (note small “t”) were continued in the Church. For example, and I ask anyone who is married: Do you wear a wedding ring? If you do, then according to rod of iron, you have made a bad decision in incorporating a pagan belief into your Christian faith. Therefore, you are corrupt, and an apostate.
In Christ,
Jorge
R
rod_of_iron
Guest
Jorge, you assert, as all Catholics do, that Jesus made Peter the leader of His church. You base this on your interpretation of Matthew 16:18. Yes, Jesus did tell Peter that His church would be built upon a rock and that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. But Jesus never said that this church He spoke of would be the Catholic church. There is no documentation from that timeframe that says Peter was made the leader of the church or tells who is successors were. Why would the true church go from being led by the Twelve Apostles to being led by just one man, after Peter died? How was Peter any more special than were the other 11 Apostles? If the Catholic church was led by Twelve men, instead of just one man, the validity of the church would be more convincing. Who succeeded each of the other 11 Apostles in their offices? Wouldn’t they have joined with the successor of Peter to rule the church as a quorum of 12 leaders?God’s Wisdom. :bible1: Jesus made Peter, one of the weakest, leader of his Church. Peter even denied Jesus three times, yet Peter became leader of the Church. If you talk about disappointing Jesus, Peter was the first one to do it, yet, this fact didn’t play a negative part in Peter’s role in the Church. If your assertion is right, then the first one to have been an apostate was Peter. So you’re saying that the Church was in apostacy even before there was a church? How can this be?
Also, how did I say that the church fell into apostasy before it existed? I don’t understand your question to me.
If Jesus wanted His church to endure, why would He build it upon a sandy foundation such as Peter? Peter was always opening his mouth and putting his foot in it. Peter just did not understand Christ while Jesus dwelt with him. Christ on one occasion told Peter, “Get behind me Satan”. Why would Jesus build upon a man that He compared with Satan? How can you believe that Jesus would make a liar the leader of His church? Peter denied knowing Jesus three times. If Judas hadn’t killed himself, the Catholic church may have likely chosen Judas to build upon. It just blows my mind that anyone would choose the sandy foundation of Peter to build their church on.
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