Who founded your denomination?????

  • Thread starter Thread starter JoaoMachado
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
40.png
Kevan:
That “h” is sometimes a consonantal vowel at the end of a word, but it is not so at the beginning or in the middle.
If an “h” cannot be inserted into a word as an infix, how do you explain the change from Abram to Abraham? It would appear that an “h” has been added within the root of the word.
40.png
Kevan:
Yes, and you made the same claim for the name “Sarah.” But in neither case do you have what you need.
I found that I had my information about Sarah reversed. Her name was changed from Sarai to Sarah, instead of the other way around. In this case, like with Abraham, an “h” was added to Sarai’s name. But in this case, the “h” was added as a suffix. It appears that all God added to there names was an “h” when they made the covenant. One of the seven steps to making a covenant is the exchange of names.
40.png
Kevan:
Abram’s name was not changed to Ab-iah (which would probably signify “Yah is father”) or “Ab-ia-ram” (which I couldn’t suggest a meaning for). His name became Ab (father) raham (which the Bible interprets as “a multitude”). There’s nothing in the Hebrew to substantiate your theory.
I have found that I was not accurate with my information. Only an “h” was added to the names.
40.png
Kevan:
And now I’d like to apologize for the tone of my earlier posts. I was unkind and there’s no excuse for it.
Apology accepted.
 
40.png
darcee:
back to the original question…

How many people actually knoww who founded their sect?

-D
I do. Mine was founded by Jesus Christ, in the beginning.
 
Maybe that is what your faith says…but your sect seems to have been founded by you.😉

-D
 
40.png
reggie:
ROI you say there is not proof, I say that the unbroken line of bishops for nearly 2000 years serves as proof.
How can you use this unbroken line of bishops as proof, when you have not proven that such a line does exist? Where is the proof that Peter passed on the authority to Linus or anyone else?
40.png
reggie:
Each bishop is ordained by a sitting bishop and has been since the Apostles.
Sitting bishop? Are you claiming that each pope ordains his successor before that pope dies? This was not my understanding of this process. Where is the evidence of Peter ordaining his successor while Peter was yet alive?
40.png
reggie:
Peter entered a new covenant with Jesus, that was to feed His Sheep.
That was not a covenant. Jesus asked Peter three times if he loved Him. Each time was for each time that Peter denied Christ. Jesus was just asking Peter where he stood. Did Peter love Christ? If he did, Jesus told him what he needed to do. But Peter had not yet been converted when Jesus told him to feed His sheep. Peter had not yet bought into the whole thing yet. You may not agree with me, but if Peter did not feel that Jesus’ questions were in response to Peter’s denial of Christ, why was Peter so grieved at the third time Christ asked him if he loved Him? Peter knew what Jesus was asking by the third time. Jesus was asking him if He could count on him.
40.png
reggie:
I think the passages regarding this are perfectly clear and show that Jesus was giving Peter a mission,
I don’t agree that this was all there was to it. Peter had denied Christ. This was something that the other remaining 10 apostles had not done.

(continued …)
 
40.png
reggie:
If you are familiar with the Catholic Mass, you know the elements of the Jewish priesthood there.
I am not familiar with it. What elements are you speaking of?
40.png
reggie:
The difference is that Jesus was the only perfect and acceptable sacrifice for the atonement of sin.
Yes, I agree. This is why His atonement is an infinite atonement. But if the Catholic church believes this, why does it believe that people still need to go to purgatory?
40.png
reggie:
I did not mean to say that God could not have made known the life, death and resurrection of Jesus in another way.
And God has done so.
40.png
reggie:
What I was trying to say (apparently badly) is that the Church has done so through the Bible and Tradition along with the writings of early Christians, also protected and handed on through the church.
I agree with you when it comes to the Bible. But I do not see where Tradition fits into this at all. When did this Tradition begin? What does it start with?
40.png
reggie:
You cannot dispute that the Bible as we know it came through the church.
Granted.
40.png
reggie:
You cannot dispute that it was the church who painstakingly copied and preserved it throughout the centuries.
But I can question whether the Bible we have today is exactly the same as when the writers of the books of the Bible first penned them. But the original documents that were penned in the first century are not available to be examined.

(continued …)
 
40.png
reggie:
I also maintain that as Jesus is the Head of the Church and existed before everything else, including the OT, then the church through Him also existed outside of our grasp of time but within His own.
I maintain that Jesus is the Head of His church, but that church is not the same as the Roman Catholic church. The Roman Catholic church is an apostatized version of the church that Jesus founded.
40.png
reggie:
Once again, instead of providing anything to support your claim, you use the tired old arguements about the popes, Luther and indulgences. Hey, you forgot the Inquisition and Galileo and Joan of Arc and on and on and on. These are not credible to disprove the Church and its existence for 2000 years.
A logical person would believe that comparing the first century church with today’s Catholic church and showing the differences between the two would be enough to prove that the current Catholic church is not the same as the church that Christ established. If an animal began with hooves and utters, and now has a bill and webbed-feet, would I be out of line to suggest that the new animal is not the same as the old one? This is what I see when I look at the Catholic church as compared to the church that Jesus founded. How can you overlook the gross sins of the leaders of the Catholic church during the Inquisition, and still believe the church is the same as when Jesus established it 2000 years ago? What will it take for you to start looking elsewhere for this church that the gates of hell would not prevail against? I believe that this church does exist, but it is not the Catholic church.

I find it interesting that you bring up Joan of Arc. One pope condemned her to death for being a heretic, yet she has since been canonized as a saint? Which was she? A heretic or a saint? Did God make a mistake or the Catholic church?
40.png
reggie:
I notice that you don’t mention that Luther still believed in the greatest part of the Church, the Eucharist, he still loved Mary and many of the practices of the church. He just fell into the same trap that so many have, that He alone knew the Bible and its message and all the rest of the church, for more than 1500 years was wrong.
I fail to find anywhere in the Bible where scripture can only be properly interpreted by the Catholic church.
 
40.png
darcee:
Maybe that is what your faith says…but your sect seems to have been founded by you.😉

-D
No, no. I cannot take credit for something that my Savior Jesus has done.
 
So did you recieve a heavenly vision or was this the result of study?

-D
 
40.png
reggie:
Okay, here’s something else that gets me going. You say, I trust the Holy Spirit and the Bible and there is no command in the Bible to trust the Catholic Church. What is with people like you? You depend on the Bible and yet it is the Catholic Church who served to protect it, copy it and hand it down. Do you even realize how conradictory that is. Do you see the totally inane logic in that?
You act as if the Catholic church is the only ecclesiastical body who has had copies of the books of the Bible in their possession throughout the years. You act as if none of the other groups during the first three centuries AD had any copies of these books in their possession. Don’t you see how totally inane this is? Until Constantine came along, there were different groups claiming to be the successor of the apostles. Then, Constantine decided to choose one version of Christianity that would further his rule of the Roman Empire. Then, Constantine had the audacity to appoint scholars to decide which books were inspired and then canonize them. There is no support for canonization of the books of the Bible within the Bible.

The Bible has survived not because of the Catholic church, but because God has protected it from the Catholic church and the corrupt leadership that so often has led that church.
40.png
reggie:
If the Bible is the inspired word of God,
The Bible is not the Word of God. Jesus is.
40.png
reggie:
and as such it is to be believed in matters of faith then it must also be believed that the ones to whom it has been trusted to preserve it should also be believed.
That logic is flawed. You are assuming that God has no control over the preservation of the Bible, so that He would have to make sure the church who had possession of it was perfect. This is not necessarily true.
40.png
reggie:
Would the Church have recorded and handed down a work that was so opposite to it’s own teaching?
What? The church recorded what is in the Bible??? The Bible predates the Catholic church. All it takes to accept a book that is in opposition to one’s teachings is to interpret the book so that it suddenly appears to support one’s teachings. But there seems to be a great deal that the Catholic church teaches that cannot be supported by the Bible.

(continued …)
 
40.png
reggie:
Would the Church have protected and cherished a work that disputed it’s very existence?
When the church has corrupt leaders that will deceive the laity, so that the laity cannot see the truth, it wouldn’t be too hard to lead the church to protect and cherish such a work. If the church never had anything to hide, why was the Bible chained to the pulpit for so many centuries? Could it be that the leadership did not want the laity to know what the Bible really said? I vote for: Yes.
40.png
reggie:
God entrusted the church with the written account of Jesus.
Nope. The church had the written account in its possession and God protected the Bible from the corrupt church leaders.
40.png
reggie:
The lineage and unbroken links are there. YOu cannot provide one single fact to support otherwise.
You obviously cannot prove that the line of popes are unbroken, so you try to get me to prove that they are not unbroken. The burden of proof lies with you.
40.png
reggie:
That is just twisted logic to say “how can I prove something that did not happen”.
Can you prove that something that didn’t happen actually happened? If you can, you must be a magician.

(continued …)
 
40.png
reggie:
If these golden tablets exist, where are they?
I told you. They are with the original manuscripts of the Bible that were penned by their authors.
40.png
reggie:
I know that the Bible exists because MY Church the church of Jesus Christ with the Grace and Goodness of God has seen that it is still here today.
I still disagree with your logic here.
40.png
reggie:
I know that the early writings and manuscripts existed because the Church of Jesus Christ through the Grace and Goodness of God has them in their possession.( what is left of them).
Well said. “What is left of them.”
40.png
reggie:
And that church of Jesus Christ is the Catholic church. Sanctified by the Sacrifice of Jesus. Built upon the blood of martyrs, and made holy by the one true Savior, Jesus.
Again, where is the evidence to prove that?
40.png
reggie:
I haven’t seen or heard one thing from you to disprove this or to support your claim that Jesus, Peter, Paul and John laid hands on Joseph Smith.
Joseph Smith was not the only one who claimed this. Oliver Cowdery did also. Where did Peter claim that he ordained Linus?
 
Rod Of Iron, I would like you to read this:

THE LACK OF MISSION IN THE MINISTERS OF THE NEW PRETEND CHURCH LEAVES BOTH THEM AND THEIR FOLLOWERS WITHOUT EXCUSE.
Code:
   First, then your ministers had not the conditions required for the position which they sought to maintain, and the enterprise which they undertook. Wherefore they are inexcusable; and you yourselves also, who knew and still know or ought to know, this defect in them, have done very wrong in receiving them under such colours. The office they claimed was that of ambassadors of Jesus Christ Our Lord; the affair they undertook was to declare a formal divorce between Our Lord and the ancient Church His Spouse; to arrange and conclude by words of present consent, as lawful procurators, a second and new marriage with this young madam, of better grace, said they, and more seemly than the other. For in effect, to stand up as preacher of God’s Word and pastor of Souls,--what is it but to call oneself ambassador and legate of Our Lord, according to that of the Apostle: *We are therefore ambassadors for Christ? *(2Cor5:20) And say that the whole of Christendom has failed, that the whole Church has erred, and all truth disappeared, what is this but to say that Our Lord has abandoned his Church, has broken the sacred tie of marriage he had contracted with her? And to put forward a new Church, --is it not to attempt to thrust upon his sacred and Holy Husband a second wife? This is what the ministers of the pretend church have undertaken; this is what they boast of having done; this has been the aim of their discourses, their designs, their writings. But what an injustice have you not committed in not believing them? How did you come to take their word so simply? How did you so lightly give them credit?

 To be legates and ambassadors they should have been sent, they should have had letters of credit from him whom they boasted of being sent by. The affairs were of the greatest importance, for there was question of disturbing the whole Church. The persons who undertook them were extraordinaries, of mean quality, and private persons; while the ordinary pastors were men of mark, and of most ancient and acknowledged reputation, who contradicted them and protested that these extraordinaries had no charge nor commandment of the Master. Tell me, what business had you to hear them and believe them without having any assurance of their commission and the approval of Our Lord, whose legates they called themselves? In a word, you have no justification for having quitted that ancient Church in which you were baptized, on the faith of preachers who had no legitimate mission from the Master. Now you cannot be ignorant that they neither had nor have, in any way at all, this mission. For if Our Lord had sent them, it would have been either mediately or immediately. We say mission is given mediately when we are sent by one who has from God the power of sending, according to the order which he has appointed in His Church; and such was the mission of St. Denis into France by Clement and Timothy by St. Paul. Immediate mission is when God himself commands and gives a charge, without the interposition of the ordinary authority which he has placed in the prelates and pastors of the Church: as St. Peter and the Apostles were sent, receiving from Our Lord’s own mouth this commandment: *Go ye into the whole world, and preach the Gospel to every creature;**How shall they preach*, says the Apostle, *unless they be sent? *(Rom10:15) (Mar16:15) and as Moses received his mission to Pharao and to the people of Israel. But neither in the one nor in the other way have your ministers any mission. How then have they undertaken to preach? *How shall they preach*, says the Apostle, *unless they be sent? *(Rom10:15) 


St. Francis de Sales
 
Rod,

If we are wrong tell us who is right. What proof will work for you? The Bible speaks of the Trinity, yet you deny it. History shows us the line of popes, yet it is not the Bible. You will not tell us what denomination you are, so you must doubt it as well. I am somewhat like Thomas, I must probe the wounds. I do not see, yet I believe because the Church is the bulwark and pillar of truth, yet you saw the Jesus founded your denomination. I ask you for your proof, for none of mine is good enough for you. Let us change sides: prove your point. Prove no Trinity. Prove no line of Popes. Prove the negative, for in your eyes we cannot prove the positive. I feel that you truely beleive that you are doing God’s will, but be resolute in your faith and tell us all.
 
Eric Hyom:
Recently the Pope has been asking for forgiveness for the things done in the name of the Catholic Church, namely the inquisitions. I would also like to add the selling of indulgencies.

It seems Martin Luther broke away from the Catholic Church because he felt that the church wasn’t following in the footsteps of Christ through these actions. He felt that the Catholic Church was not right and there was a need for change.
Eric, I urge you to study the history of the Catholic Church from objective sources. You are misinformed. The Church needed reforming, but Luther didn’t reform it, he fractured it.

The Church reformed herself. Luther was no hero – read the thread “The Real Luther” for some of the facts. Read real histories of Luther by accredited, objective, university-trained historians for more of the facts. Luther desecrated the Scriptures, removing eleven books and parts of Esther and Daniel from the Bible. See “The Real Luther” and “History of the Bible” threads. Luther sanctioned plural marriage, urging Henry VIII to commit bigamy rather than divorce Catherine of Aragon, and approving the bigamous marriage of Philip of Hesse. Therefore, he urged others to commit the mortal (deadly) sin of adultery, which, without repentance, would send their souls to hell. It sounds like you’ve been buying Protestant propaganda, the false image of Luther. I urge you to investigate Luther for yourself in objective histories before you laud him.

You might start with TRIUMPH: The Power and the Glory of the Catholic Church – A 2,000-Year History, by H.W. Crocker III (www.primaforum.com). Crocker is a Civil War historian who recently became a Catholic.

The Church has never sold indulgences. The Church is the spotless Bride of Christ (Eph 5:26). Tetzel sold indulgences. Tetzel was ***not ***the Church. He was merely a member of the Church.

Peace be with you and all who post at Catholic Answers.

Blessed Father Damien, pray for us! Jay
 
40.png
Katholikos:
The Church has never sold indulgences. The Church is the spotless Bride of Christ (Eph 5:26). Tetzel sold indulgences. Tetzel was ***not ***the Church. He was merely a member of the Church.
How does this work? Does it mean that the Church never does anything, and only her members do things?

Does it mean that the Church only does good things and the bad things are, by definition, done only by the members?

Or what?
 
Darcee, It seems you think this thread has gone off the original question of “Who founded your denomination?” I don’t agree and think that the debate going on with ROI is at the very heart of Truth. We have two diametrically opposed doctrines each claiming to be the one church founded by Jesus Christ. Only one can be true. So many of the sects of Protestantism and those claiming to be Christian, although they have doctrine which even mainstream Protestants dispute and in fact are not Christian, point to Jesus as their founder. Now in the last years, mainstream Protestants and Catholic leaders while disagreeing on some doctrine and practices at least recognize the unity we do have on the basics. The Trinity, The Virgin Mary, Jesus as God, etc…But sects such as ROI reject all of these as abomination and say that a whole new doctrine is the true doctrine. No Trinity, Jesus as only human, God was once a man, etc… These are heresy and lead souls away. Now I have some very good Mormon friends and admire in many ways their loyalty to family and community. I even contemplated joining them before I returned to the Catholic Church. My research into their doctrine is what stopped me cold. I thank God for leading me back to the truth after much reading, searching and prayer. So, yes it seems to be a little off the topic, but it very important in the big picture.
 
ROI, you say I must be a magician but it is you with your sleight of hand posts, which draw attention to your objections to my proof and not to answering direct questions with substantive evidence, that seems to be the magician. I will answer again to the best of my abilities but must ask you once again to give us solid proof, in the form of history, documents and more than one or two questionable witnesses to this visitation to JS.

First, Peter was not elected Pope, he was the Bishop of Rome because he was an Apostle. Would he have called himself a bishop, I can’t say. He may not have been fully aware of his position nor of the importance of the line of his successors. This does not in any way detract from that importance. You say the papacy is a developed office. I have no problem with that. It developed because the churches in other areas appealed to the Bishop of Rome to render decisions regarding faith and practices within the infant church. Why did they do this? Because they recognized that Peter was the “rock” on whom Jesus would build His church and the authority given him was then passed to his successors. Did Peter name Linus as that first successor? Again, no Pope names his successor. Linus was ordained by Peter and is even mentioned by Paul in his second letter to Timothy 4:21. You question whether Peter was ever in Rome. In Peter’s 1st epistle, he mentions Babylon. All major Christian denominations agree that that is a reference to Rome and that Peter was there when he wrote it. Also that Peter and Paul were martyred there. You alone dissent and yet cannot prove otherwise. Linus, as Peter’s companion and student would have naturally been the successor. It wasn’t until further down the line that the pope was elected. Once again that developement thing, but again, not an obstacle to the unbroken line. Now we know from the Bible, that the Apostles travelled throughout the region and ordained men to lead and guide the churches after they left. Just as Judas’ place was filled, through prayer and the laying on of hands, so too were these men chosen. There is even a guideline as to what the qualifications were in Paul’s 1st letter to Timothy. These men would have needed further instruction and somewhere to address disputes. Many of them looked to Rome and accepted as final the rulings of the Bishop of Rome. Now why would they have done that if they did not respect and understand the authority of Peter and by succession those who followed him?
 
con’t

Now Irenaeus, a Christian from the first century, writes of Linus as being the successor to Peter. Was he already in apostasy? Had the church established by Jesus already been lost?

You seem to be stuck on Peter’s denials and Jesus’ three questions of Peter in John 21. Your claim is that Peter was not even converted at this time but I find the connection supports the claim that Peter was chosen by Jesus. Once again, Peter may not have understood what Jesus was asking of him. Yes, he was ashamed of his denials but he did not deny the Risen Lord. It was not until Pentecost that Peter fully grasped what he was to do. The Holy Spirit infused him as He did all the others but note, it was Peter who stood and apoke after they had all spoken in the tongues of all present. Note also, that the eleven were standing with Peter while he spoke. After his sermon, the twelve were asked “what should we do?” and it is Peter who tells them repent and be baptized and three thousand were. Note also, it is Peter who heals first, it is Peter who addresses the Jewish officials when they are apprehended the first time and it is Peter to whom God entrusts the first radical doctrine of the gentiles. Three examples of when Peter is first and shows authority given him by Jesus. Now you say the other 10 Apostles never denied Jesus. Where does the Bible say this? It doesn’t. You’re own argument of proving something that didn’t happen is turned against you here. You assume this even though the Bible never addresses it. I submit that the reason Peter’s denials are recorded is because God, knowing how he was going to use Peter as “His rock” shows through Peter that even though we are scared and unsure of who Jesus was and is, the Holy Spirit will strengthen us and deepen our faith. the church could only be as strong as its weakest link. Now Note also, that in every list of the Apostles int he Bible, Peter is noted 1st event though he was not the 1st to be called.
 
con’t

Now, you say that there is nothing in the Bible which says which books are to be canon or who has the authority to interpret it. This is true, but I find it interesting that you use the Bible to support your claim even though the Bible you use is the Bible protected and handed down by the church. If this is not the true Bible and Joseph Smith with his golden tablets interpreted the BOA, why then are these tablets not presented for all to use and why would JS even bother with a Bible handed down through an apostate church? If God has preserved the Bible from the corruption of the Catholic church, then why would He not have given it to the true church in the first place? You say that the Bible predates the Catholic church. This is just not true. The OT was used in many different forms before the councils formed to codify canon. The Bible as we know it, OT and NT come through the church and does so because it is Jesus’ church, the Kingdom of God on earth from which all graces flow to those who accept.
Now you say the Bible is not the Word of God, but Jesus is. I say that both are. The Bible is the inspired Word written for our edification, Jesus is the Incarnate Word conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, crucified and risen for our salvation. They are one and the same just different in form. They are the Way, the Truth and the Life for the world. The Bible as we know it did not exist until the 4th century, the church predates it by three hundred or more years. You say the Bible was chained to the pulpit and kept from the laity. True, but not for evil purposes or to keep us from the Word. First and foremost, books in general were not easily or cheaply owned. They were all hand copied, which took alot of time and manpower. Few people owned a book much less a Bible. Second, most people could not read and wouldn’t have been able to follow the Greek and/or Hebrew in which it was written. Every time we meet for the mass, the Bible is read. If after the Protestants it was not encouraged, it is because of the fear that we would misinterpret it. Not because we might find the church in error, but because our own interpretation might lead us astray from the truth. Peter says in his 2nd letter that no prophecy is a matter of personal interpretation 1:20 and then immediately follows this with the warnings of false teachers.
Your claims just show your own paranoia about the church and the motives of its leaders. Not all were good and holy men, but the church is good and holy and still standing.
 
con’t

Now you say that Constantine just picked a form of Christianity and made it legitimate. This is a common misconception and it is not surprising you would try to use it to discredit the church. Have you read The DaVinci Code lately?

Constantine was moved by the devotion and love of the Christians to declare them a legitimate religion and stop the persecution of them. Christianity after this flourished all the more. Did it ever occur to you that God used Constantine to further the church and not vice versa? Of course not, your aim is to tear down not build up. I find an interesting link in that in Jerusalem, it was the Jews who called for the crucifixion of Jesus but it was the Romans who carried it out. In a converse way, the Jews persecuted the early Christians but it was through the Romans that the church rose to the levels it has. Why would Constantine use them for his political agenda? They were forced to meet in secret and killed for their beliefs. Of course, you don’t buy the blood of the martyrs. Whether or not you believe, thousands of people died for the Christian faith, many are still dying and yes, their blood helps to build up the church through their inspiration and the glory of God.
As for Joan of Arc, you should reread your history once again. She was condemned as a heretic not by a pope, but by church officials favorable to the English government. Almost immediately following her death, she was declared a martyr for the faith and a saint.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top