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ProVobis
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And when I left, no one noticed either.well, you had the best seat in the house
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At_Trent
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Iāve never walked out of a confessional convinced if I were to drop dead at that moment Iād go to Heaven or Purgatoryā¦or even after doing my penance
Why ? Because it wonāt be until my time comes until I know if Iāve exceeded my measure.
I see what you are saying. Still, " Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, but only say the word and I shall be healed."ā¦ is part of the Mass (OF)
And the Agnus Dei
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At_Trent
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Then why do angels speak and sing in Latin ?Hahahah, they have it i Aramaic, and we all know that Aramaic >>>>> Latin
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ProVobis
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Okay but where do we find such a Mass or DL since they all went vernacular?Hahahah, they have it i Aramaic, and we all know that Aramaic >>>>> Latin
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ConstantineTG
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After I walk out of confession I always say, ānow will be the best time to dieā
I agree with you that we wonāt know, but I am hopeful in the words of Christ that my sins were forgiven then.
We do have a more extensive prayer before Communion where one line says, āMay the partaking of Your Holy Mysteries, O Lord, be unto me not for judgment or condemnation but for the healing of the soul and body.ā But of course we still hold fast to St. Paulās teaching that anyone who partakes of the bread and drinks from the cup unworthily eats and drinks condemnation.
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ConstantineTG
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Chaldeans and MaronitesOkay but where do we find such a Mass or DL since they all went vernacular?
I think the Maronites use and older form of Aramaic than the Chaldeans.
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ProVobis
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But only when theyāre in the Western hemisphere.Then why do angels speak and sing in Latin ?
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ProVobis
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Chaldeans and Maronites
The closest Maronite to me does it in English and Arabic/English.
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ConstantineTG
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Iām pretty sure it was Greek because Gabriel said ākecharitomeneā.Then why do angels speak and sing in Latin ?
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archangel04
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hhmmm true, very true.But how do we do a virtual 20 paces?
Bold is mine. I guess what I said came out wrong way, I know that many orders have been successful throughout the centuries the integrate other cultures into the Church, this I do not have a problem with, since this is something that has been with us with the beginning of the Church. What I do have a problem is the modern thinking that we should accept these cultures including their religious beliefs and mix them with ours. I also have a problem when a culture is integrated into the western rite, but throw out āourā culture or prohibit us a mass that we spiritually can grow because itās too European or archaic. An example could be a Bishop who makes it difficult for a group of people to have an EF mass every Sunday, but at the same time allows for African style dancing in the liturgy even though the majority of the community is Anglo. I apologize if I came out the wrong way but I hope I made myself much more clear.**Iām really curious whether you would now ask all of these groups to stop what they have been doing for hundreds of years, integrating local culture and Catholic customs? Is it fair to these groups? Is it even appropriate to as them to give up what has become part of Catholic Tradition? Would it not be better to allow each group to continue to do its work the way that it has always done it and to Christianize local culture rather than exclude it? I think it would be very sad to stop something that is part of the Churchās history.**Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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ConstantineTG
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Have to go to Lebanon then
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formerlysure
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I havenāt used this site long enough to be tired of any particular topics but have noticed from the first time I signed on the mean-spirited and judgmental tone of some posts. My purpose in coming to this site was to support other efforts in my life to explore and deepen my understanding of Catholicism. Like most Catholics, I was born and raised in the faith but also like many I know, I never really fully understood my own faith. It is complex. I struggle with many issues, and while I never question God I have often questioned the church. Such a forum should welcome such questions and permit them to be asked without rebuke and nastiness.
There are some as well who appear to look for nasty motives in the ideas and statements of others, and to set themselves up as the āfaith policeā, judging one another very harshly. This has bothered me a great deal.
There are some as well who appear to look for nasty motives in the ideas and statements of others, and to set themselves up as the āfaith policeā, judging one another very harshly. This has bothered me a great deal.
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ProVobis
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Are you sure it wasnāt Zeus or Apollo?Iām pretty sure it was Greek because Gabriel said ākecharitomeneā.
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archangel04
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If only food could solve all our problemsā¦
But, as Christ said, man does not live by bread alone.
It was Thor! LolAre you sure it wasnāt Zeus or Apollo?
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JReducation
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Just a little history lesson. The Benedictines, Augustinians and Franciscans grew to be such large orders that they were subdivided into autonomous groups. I believe the Benedictines call each group a congregation. I donāt know what term the Augustinians use. Franciscans use the term obedience. In a nutshell, we all obey the same rule. Our constitutions are different. The constitutions try to fill in the blanks, when a situation arises that the rule does not address. We are bound to the rule, statutes, testament and admonitions of St. Francis. Those cannot be changed. We treat them ALMOST as if they were infallible.
For centuries, the Franciscan family never used Gregorian chant. However, it has always used many other forms of sacred music. Much of it came from Germany.
Francis asked Pope Innocent III for a simpler missal. Pope Innocent gave him what would later become the Tridentine Mass. The friars grew. Many of them (about 40%) are priests. They carried this mass with them. It took root. There were a number of changes made to it over the centuries. The Council of Trent promulgated it and St. Pius V, finished touching it up.
However, there is a law in the Church. If a religious order that is exempt has a custom that is over 100 years old, the changes in the law do not apply to that order, unless the pope explicitly says it does. St. Pius never said that the changes to the mass applied to Franciscans. The Franciscans continued to celebrate it the way they had always done. It came to be known as the Seraphic Mass, in honor of the Seraphic Father, St. Francis.
After Vatican II, Pope Paul released for New Order. He commanded the Franciscans not to use the Seraphic Missal, but to adapt the New Order to fit the Franciscan customs, calendar and spirituality. The Roman-Franciscan Form was born, to replace the Seraphic Form.
Pope Benedict has also prohibited the use of the Seraphic Missal, because it predates the 1962 missal. We now have three forms that are available to us, the OF, EF and the Roman-Franciscan Form, which is what you see on EWTN. The differences are very slight, usually only observable to someone who knows liturgy very well and who knows the liturgical calendar.
The big difference is in the calendar itself. We donāt follow the same calendar as the rest of the Church. When we are given a parish to administer, it is with the understanding that the laity will submit to the Franciscan Liturgical calendar. This has proven a bit of a challenge for some Traditionalists who did not know that the Franciscans always had their own calendar. The collects, readings, and prayers may be the same five days of the week and different on two days, because they are Franciscan holy days.
The other big difference, not very observable, is that unless there is a good reason to concelebrate, only one friar celebrates mass, regardless of how many friars are priests. There is no private mass. Francis wrote this into the rule to minimize the distinction between the ordained friars and the non ordained friars and strengthen the bonds of fraternity. He himself was not a priest and had no intention of turning his order into an order for priests. It was to be open to men of all walks of life. The Church tried to change this after Vatican I and by 1970, it was obvious that Francis was right and we went back to the old ways of 1209.
Then there are other minor differences. We have always allowed women to sing at our masses. We never had male scholas. In the video that is on YouTube, the Franciscans of the Immaculate are celebrating the EF, but the singing is by the sisters. If you listen very carefully, itās not Gregorian Chant. It is sacred music, but not the Gregorian Chant that came down to us from the monks. It was Gregorian Chant that St. Francis did not allow.
Another small detail is the sanctuary. In our sanctuaries there are no communion rails, because our chapels are small. Also, as you see in the video, the friars are all in the sanctuary. For those who donāt recognize the habits, they might not notice it. But there are novices, postulants, student friars and fully professed friars all in the sanctuary. This particular sanctuary seems very large. Most of our sanctuaries are rather small, because our houses tend to be small. My own chapel is 10 x 12. For that reason, you donāt put up barriers between the priest and the community. The railing separates the celebrant from his brothers. His function at that mass is to serve his brothers by leading them in offering the sacrifice. That is also a little different way of thinking. He is an equal to the other brother who is a priest, to the brother who is a cook and to the brother who is a theologian. It is his role to serve his brothers by celebrating mass for them.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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JReducation
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The FI Minister General has given them permission to celebrate the EF for the public as long as the entire house votes on it. They have several houses that do it regularly. They have a brother, who is not a priest, but he is a Doctor of Liturgy. He did the research and the training of the friars to who wanted to celebrate the EF. He has trained many Franciscans.
Other Franciscan communities have slightly different rules on it. The Franciscans of the Eternal Word have permission to celebrate it for the faithful on special occasions. Itās not my community, so I donāt know who decides what is and is not a special occasion. My guess is that it would be the Servant.
You said something about each religious institute keeping their forms, but having only the EF or OF for the laity. That will not work, because the religious communities that have their own form and those that have their own rite, canonically and by their own laws, have the right (no pun intended) to use theitr form or their rite, even if the laity is present, such as at a parish. It is understood that when a religious community takes over a ministry, such as a parish, the laity will welcome the authority of the superior, the rule, the constitutions and the customs of that community. If the religious life of the particular community and the pastoral needs of the parish are incompatible, then the religious community does not take the parish. Bishops understand this when they ask a religious community to take over a ministry. The bishop and the laity cannot ask for anything contrary to the laws of the community.
The only way around this would be for the pope to go around the Council of Trent, which gave exempt status to certain individual religious who meet the criteria. He would have to declare that there are no longer exempt religious. What do you do with orders like the Benedictines and Franciscans, which are not orders of priests, but have priests? Do you impose priestly rules on the entire order? Do you split the order by putting some under one set of rules and the others under another set of rules? Vatican I tried to do that and it proved a disaster. Ven. Pius XII and Vatican II had to fix it.
This whole EF thing is proving to be interesting. Itās going to take some creative thinking where the religious men are concerned.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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At_Trent
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Interesting stuff. Iām sure they will work it out. ā¦ and glad I donāt have to help figure it all out !The FI Minister General has given them permission to celebrate the EF for the public as long as the entire house votes on it. They have several houses that do it regularly. They have a brother, who is not a priest, but he is a Doctor of Liturgy. He did the research and the training of the friars to who wanted to celebrate the EF. He has trained many Franciscans.
Other Franciscan communities have slightly different rules on it. The Franciscans of the Eternal Word have permission to celebrate it for the faithful on special occasions. Itās not my community, so I donāt know who decides what is and is not a special occasion. My guess is that it would be the Servant.
You said something about each religious institute keeping their forms, but having only the EF or OF for the laity. That will not work, because the religious communities that have their own form and those that have their own rite, canonically and by their own laws, have the right (no pun intended) to use theitr form or their rite, even if the laity is present, such as at a parish. It is understood that when a religious community takes over a ministry, such as a parish, the laity will welcome the authority of the superior, the rule, the constitutions and the customs of that community. If the religious life of the particular community and the pastoral needs of the parish are incompatible, then the religious community does not take the parish. Bishops understand this when they ask a religious community to take over a ministry. The bishop and the laity cannot ask for anything contrary to the laws of the community.
The only way around this would be for the pope to go around the Council of Trent, which gave exempt status to certain individual religious who meet the criteria. He would have to declare that there are no longer exempt religious. What do you do with orders like the Benedictines and Franciscans, which are not orders of priests, but have priests? Do you impose priestly rules on the entire order? Do you split the order by putting some under one set of rules and the others under another set of rules? Vatican I tried to do that and it proved a disaster. Ven. Pius XII and Vatican II had to fix it.
This whole EF thing is proving to be interesting. Itās going to take some creative thinking where the religious men are concerned.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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JReducation
Guest
It is very interesting. The one good thing that has already come out of the Sacred Congregation for Religious is that orders like the Benedictines and Franciscans will not have to go back to the 19th century when we were split 60/40, where there was one set of rules for the ordained and another for the non ordained. The Sacred Congregation has said that will not happen again. It acknowledges that this was a mistake and contrary to the vision of Benedict and Francis.
The only other out here is to allow them to decide for themselves through a vote. They are allowed to use whatever form of liturgy they vote for, as long as they stay within the boundaries given to them by their respective rules.
The Franciscan Rule is very sparse on liturgical guidelines. It mentions that the liturgy of the hours is to be recited, that only one priest can celebrate mass, if there are more than one priest in the house and the rest is really about devotion to the Eucharist. There are other writings where Francis is a little more specific, but the rules are not too rigid. His big concern is that everyone be able to participate vocally. Thatās why he was against the use of what was then called āmonastic chantā and later called Gregorian Chant. There were other forms of chant and hymns that the people and the brothers knew. They didnāt have to learn it or have to learn to read music or read at all. Many people were illiterate back then. That was another problem. Francis was very big on vocal participation. Thatās why you will rarely see a Franciscan celebrate the mass sub-vocally. Everyone answers, not just the server. Thatās part of the form.
I know that the EF is whispered. Many friars donāt like it, because we never did that. That was because we did not use the same missal with the same rubrics. Now, there is only one EF missal, since the Seraphic Missal has been banned. The other missals are the OF Roman Missal and the Roman-Franciscan Missal. Neither of them calls for whispering. I know friars who celebrate the EF, but cheat. They speak loudly or wear a mike to allow those in attendance to respond. Theyāre trying to comply with Francisā wish that all of the brothers are active and vocal participants at the mass. I have seen some Traditionalists get upset at this. I think it may be because no one has told them that the admonitions call for this vocal participation. Iāve alwasy believed that when you explain things to people, they may not like it at first, but they are usually kind enough to go along.
Itās like when the Franciscan family started to drop the title Father for the ordained friars and call every friar, Brother. It began with the Spanish speaking provinces, then the UK, next Ireland, now Canada and certain parts of the USA. Little by little itās catching on. At first people did not like it, because, as one lady told me, āI canāt tell you guys apart.ā I thought that was cute. I felt as if she were talking about twins. We dress the same and are called Brother, but some of us are better looking. You should be able to tell us apart.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF
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archangel04
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Lol I agree! I do wish I had a solid education in Liturgy though.
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archangel04
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There are three saints I wish I could have met 1. St. Augustine of Hippo, I am sure he would have easily of convinced me to stop my lifestyle and become a priest. 2. St. Francis, I am sure he would of easily of convinced me that living in poverty is possible through grace, and that it would make me bery humble. 3. St. Ignatious of Loyola, his militiristic style is something Iāve always been attracted to, but at same time to have a great love for God & be defender of the Church shows how somone āgets itā if that makes sence.
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