Who is a Catholic - is this chart right?

[steve-b]

If you disagree take it up with the Church. I did not write the Catechism. In answer to the question of who make up the church the Catechism says

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God… and to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320

Who is included in “all mankind”?

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337
I

What you are arguing is NOT the definition of Catholic.

When people are called they need to respond. If they don’t join the Church they aren’t “in” the Church.

From Vat II paragraph 14, Lumen Gentium

“Basing itself upon Sacred Scripture and Tradition, it teaches that the Church, now sojourning on earth as an exile, is necessary for salvation. Christ, present to us in His Body, which is the Church, is the one Mediator and the unique way of salvation. In explicit terms He Himself affirmed the necessity of faith and baptism(124) and thereby affirmed also the necessity of the Church, for through baptism as through a door men enter the Church. Whosoever, therefore, knowing that the Catholic Church was made necessary by Christ, would refuse to enter or to remain in it, could not be saved.”

who is “in” the Church?

“They are fully incorporated in the society of the Church who, possessing the Spirit of Christ accept her entire system and all the means of salvation given to her, and are united with her as part of her visible bodily structure and through her with Christ, who rules her through the Supreme Pontiff and the bishops. The bonds which bind men to the Church in a visible way are profession of faith, the sacraments, and ecclesiastical government and communion”

 

[mrsdizzyd]

I also can’t believe we are having this conversation!

You apparently have misunderstood what I said. At no point was I ever speaking in reference to people who had the opportunity to know God but rejected it.

I have only ever been referencing that one subset of people who “ through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

It seems obvious to me that “through no fault of their own” means that they were never in a position to reject God. If they had rejected Him, or even the opportunity to know Him, they would be at fault.

 

[steve-b]

I also can’t believe we are having this conversation!

You apparently have misunderstood what I said. At no point was I ever speaking in reference to people who had the opportunity to know God but rejected it.

I have only ever been referencing that one subset of people who “ through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.”

It seems obvious to me that “through no fault of their own” means that they were never in a position to reject God. If they had rejected Him, or even the opportunity to know Him and chose not to, they would be at fault.

You’re trying to stuff everyone who draws a breath and believes in God into the name Catholic. It doesn’t work that way.

Also

When it says a person “may” be saved

may ≠ will

It means there is a possibility. Even if a remote one

 

[exnihilo]

The chart is kinda accurate. But it mixes the idea of salvation with the visible Church. I say that because anyone baptized is a member of the one, true Church, which is the Catholic Church. But, if they commit a mortal sin they are not in a state of grace. The final circle seems to handle that concept. But at the same time not every member of the Catholic Church, in the center, is in a state of grace. So the diagram is ultimately trying to do too much while being simple and fails.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

You’re trying to stuff everyone who draws a breath and believes in God into the name Catholic.

No, I am not. You are making certain assumptions about what I am saying that lead you to that conclusion. I am only saying what the Catechism says. Again,

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God… and to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation. "320

The Catechism asked the question and it answered the question.

(By the way, this quotation from the Catechism is based in part on paragraph 13 of Lumen Gentium which says in part

“All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation.”

Paragraph 16 adds further elaboration:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.

)

 

[po18guy]

“However” water baptism is the normative and expected manner of becoming a member in Christ’d Body. Those who reject water baptism willingly place their salvation at risk.

 

[Dovekin]

If you quote Lumen Gentium, you should continue to the next paragraph:

“The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter… we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end.”

This, or Paul VI’s circles in Ecclesiam Suam, is the theological basis for the diagram. Those described in this paragraph are further divided in the decree on Ecumenism into those with valid bishops/orders and other “ecclesial communities”, providing another division in the graphic.

I probably would not say these are all “Catholic” but they are all part of the Church “in some real way.”

 

[catholic1seeks]

I just thought that anyone in the state of grace was part of the Body of Christ, no matter how imperfect.

Can someone be in the state of grace, grafted on to Christ, and yet not be a member of the Body of Christ?

 

[catholic1seeks]

So then as a Catholic I must believe that the Body of Christ is not equivalent to the Catholic Church. And since the Body of Christ is synonymous with Christ’s “Church,” then the Catholic Church is not equivalent to “the Church.”

Correct?

 

[catholic1seeks]

Yes, you are exactly right. When I was forming this thread, I intended to clarify but I forgot!

So here is the clarification: Assume that all circles are made up individuals now in the state of grace. For the chart is meaning to suggest to what other means (like visible communion with the Pope) guarantee a more focused membership in Christ’s one church.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Would it be better to say that all who form part of the Body of Christ (e.g., all baptized Christians) are indeed part of the Catholic Church, but are not “Catholic,” since that term has come to exclusively mean communion with Rome?

What do you think?

 

[steve-b]

If you quote Lumen Gentium, you should continue to the next paragraph:

“The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter… we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood. In all of Christ’s disciples the Spirit arouses the desire to be peacefully united, in the manner determined by Christ, as one flock under one shepherd, and He prompts them to pursue this end.”

Said another way, all of humanity is related in some way, however, that doesn’t mean we are in communion or in the same community .

Jesus DID have to pray that all would be perfectly one. No need to pray that if it was already true. But His Church He established on Peter and those in communion with Peter is ONE

Dovekin:

This, or Paul VI’s circles in Ecclesiam Suam, is the theological basis for the diagram.

BTW, Where did YOU get the diagram?

AND

Re: ECCLESIAM SUAM, scroll down to section 110.

That encyclical makes the point perfectly.

“Are there not those who say that unity between the separated Churches and the Catholic Church would be more easily achieved if the primacy of the Roman pontiff were done away with? We beg our separated brothers to consider the groundlessness of this opinion. Take away the sovereign Pontiff and the Catholic Church would no longer be catholic. Moreover, without the supreme, effective, and authoritative pastoral office of Peter the unity of Christ’s Church would collapse. It would be vain to look for other principles of unity in place of the true one established by Christ Himself. As St. Jerome rightly observed: “There would be as many schisms in the Church as there are priests.” (65)”

Said simply

Summarizing the encyclical on this point, Those not in union with the Roman Pontiff aren’t Catholic nor are they “in” the Catholic Church.

 

[steve-b]

You’re trying to stuff everyone who draws a breath and believes in God into the name Catholic.

No, I am not. You are making certain assumptions about what I am saying that lead you to that conclusion. I am only saying what the Catechism says. Again,

Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God… and to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation. "320

That is the call. It doesn’t mean people let alone all mankind, answer the call

mrsdizzyd:

The Catechism asked the question and it answered the question.

(By the way, this quotation from the Catechism is based in part on paragraph 13 of Lumen Gentium which says in part

“All men are called to be part of this catholic unity of the people of God which in promoting universal peace presages it. And there belong to or are related to it in various ways, the Catholic faithful, all who believe in Christ, and indeed the whole of mankind, for all men are called by the grace of God to salvation.”

Paragraph 16 adds further elaboration:

Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.

as was said before

can and may ≠ will

AND, said before

without blame, can’t be presumed either

From the CCC
1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

 

[mrsdizzyd]

Once again you are not talking about what I am talking about. You are attacking a strawman. As I said:

It seems obvious to me that “through no fault of their own” means that they were never in a position to reject God. If they had rejected Him, or even the opportunity to know Him, they would be at fault.

I’m not sure why you keep missing this.

Edit: it is true that it cannot be assumed that any particular person or group is actually ignorant. I have assumed no such thing. I have advanced no argument in defense of any particular group.

I have only regurgitated the Catholic theological position that such a group can, in point of fact, exist. I can only say that is you take issue with this theological position you need to take it up with the relevant authority.

 

[steve-b]

Once again you are not talking about what I am talking about. You are attacking a strawman. As I said:

mrsdizzyd:

It seems obvious to me that “through no fault of their own” means that they were never in a position to reject God. If they had rejected Him, or even the opportunity to know Him, they would be at fault.

I’m not sure why you keep missing this.

Edit: it is true that it cannot be assumed that any particular person or group is actually ignorant. I have assumed no such thing. I have advanced no argument in defense of any particular group.

I have only regurgitated the Catholic theological position that such a group can, in point of fact, exist. I can only say that is you take issue with this theological position you need to take it up with the relevant authority.

I’m merely pointing out that people CAN and DO take the ignorant argument too far.

 

[Usagi]

I presume that is why there is a circle outside “baptized Christians” of people who are in the state of grace by non-normative means.

 

[exnihilo]

I guess one way to look at it is who is sticking closest to what Jesus wants. You could even put Jesus at the center. The next circle would be His Church etc.

Would it be better to say that all who form part of the Body of Christ (e.g., all baptized Christians) are indeed part of the Catholic Church, but are not “Catholic,” since that term has come to exclusively mean communion with Rome?

That is accurate. It’s like we can say that everyone who goes to Heaven is Catholic. That doesn’t mean everyone who goes to Heaven was a member of the Catholic Church on Earth.

 

[Dovekin]

Another way of looking at it is to realize that Mary, the Mother of God, is an unbaptized person in a state of grace. She is an integral part of the church, even if she is out on the margins. A special case certainly, but a sign of the importance of this discussion.

The warnings in LG 14, left out in earlier quotes, are also important:
“He is not saved, however, who, though part of the body of the Church, does not persevere in charity. He remains indeed in the bosom of the Church, but, as it were, only in a “bodily” manner and not “in his heart.” All the Church’s children should remember that their exalted status is to be attributed not to their own merits but to the special grace of Christ. If they fail moreover to respond to that grace in thought, word and deed, not only shall they not be saved but they will be the more severely judged.” LG 14

 

[Genesis315]

No. Everyone other than the center circle is not the Catholic Church. Other baptized persons have an imperfect communion with the Church and their communities may possess many elements properly belonging to the Church, but they cannot be said to be the Catholic Church, which alone is the one Church professed in the Creed.

The chart appears to be a misunderstanding of the “concentric circles” image Pope Paul VI used in the encyclical Ecclesiam Suam, which showed how different groups were closer and closer to the Church–but in his image, only the Catholic Church was/is the Catholic Church.

 

[catholic1seeks]

@Genesis315 Well if you’re going to say all that, you still have to deal with these realities taught by the Catholic Church:

(1) There is only one Body of Christ, one Church founded by Christ
(2) The Catholic Church is Christ’s one true Church
(3) Baptism makes one a Christian and incorporates them into the Body of Christ

Our fellow baptized Protestant brothers and sisters are part of the Body of Christ. This is Church teaching. How can one be baptized, in the state of grace, and be a member of Christ’s body and yet not a member of Christ’s Church? The Body of Christ IS the Church.

So it seems we are left with three options:
A) Protestants and other non-Catholics (not in communion with Rome) are in NO way part of the Church. They are outside of the Church. They are not members of the Body of Christ.
B) Protestants and other non-Catholics (not in communion with Rome) are FULLY members of the Catholic Church, since they are baptized, and baptism makes one a member of the Body of Christ.
C) Protestants and other non-Catholics (not in communion with Rome) are members of the Body of Christ, the Church, but at varying levels and not perfect communion.

Seems only (C ) is faithful to all of Catholic Church teaching.