Who is a Catholic - is this chart right?

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If all these things are true:

(1) There is only one Body of Christ, one Church founded by Christ
(2) The Catholic Church is Christ’s one true Church
(3) Baptism makes one a Christian and incorporates them into the Body of Christ

Then how come not all Christians are “Catholic”? A Protestant is not a member of the Catholic Church, but she is Christian, and therefore still part of the Body of Christ. So why isn’t she “Catholic”?

How accurate is this chart?

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Your diagram is actually not that far off. It would not be Churches with Bishops, but rather Eatern Churches not in communion with Rome. You general sense that a valid baptism incorporates people into the Church to some degree, is by my understanding, correct.

The very outer ring, Anyone in a State of Grace, should not be included. Indeed, if one is not baptized, they are not in a State of Grace.
 
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It depends on how you define baptism.

If you mean water baptism, then that is incorrect, since God can save people (admit them to state of grace) in ways known to him alone. Plus, baptism of desire and of blood are two traditional non-water “baptisms.”
 
Then explain how.

Read the numbers and where it goes wrong.
 
Assuming all three of your premises are accurate then we can define a non-Catholic Christian as someone who:

A) Has been baptized
B) Is part of the Body of the Christ
C) Does not identify his or herself as a Catholic or recognize premise 2 as true

Just as Mormons can not claim as members those people they baptized post-mortem the Church can’t claim as members those that choose not to identify as Catholics.
 
The chart seems right at a glance.
Mike_from_NJ said:
Just as Mormons can not claim as members those people they baptized post-mortem the Church can’t claim as members those that choose not to identify as Catholics.
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This isn’t about counting numbers for an institution on Earth.
 
Church theology is that there is one universal Church. It’s not about what you called yourself or labeled yourself. Anyone who is among the saved belongs to that universal Church, whether still on Earth or in Heaven. The Church as understood by Christians (and Catholics) is more than just a institution or organization. This isn’t about claiming additional numbers. Some people on Eartg are more closely united with that Church and its sacramental life, but it’s not just a matter of the organization.
 
I do not disagree that God can save people in ways we don’t know. I also concur that baptism of desire and of blood are the same as water baptism.
I don’t see how any if this makes my post incorrect. The topic of the thread is trying to illustrate people’s relationship with the Catholic Church. Not who might or might not be saved.
 
I disagree. As I said before, the chart is not quite right, but it’s not far off. It certainly has a basis in theological reality. Any baptized person is a member of the Body of Christ. So they are our brothers/sisters in faith. But not fully a member of the Catholic Church. That’s what the chart shows. And I see nothing circular about it.
 
catholic1seeks said:
If all these things are true:

(1) There is only one Body of Christ, one Church founded by Christ
(2) The Catholic Church is Christ’s one true Church
(3) Baptism makes one a Christian and incorporates them into the Body of Christ

Then how come not all Christians are “Catholic”? A Protestant is not a member of the Catholic Church, but she is Christian, and therefore still part of the Body of Christ. So why isn’t she “Catholic”?

How accurate is this chart?

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
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Re: the chart

The Catholic Church is that which is in the center of the circle. Those in complete union with the pope. All others listed, are NOT Catholic nor the Catholic Church.

BTW, where did that chart come from
 
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  1. Apostolic Churches in communion with Rome
  2. Apostolic churches not in communion with Rome
  3. Christians who practice valid trinitarian baptism
I’m not sure what to do with your last ring. “People in a state of grace” doesn’t quite capture it. It’s more like people who do not know enough about God to reject him and who live holy lives that leave them open to God’s grace. 🤔

Edit: the circles are also a bit misleading. What if you changed it to a web with the others branching off from the churches in communion with Rome? Maybe solid line for the apostolic churches not in communion and dashed lines for the baptized and the non-believers-open-to-grace. And, perhaps your all encompassing box should be called “Catholic Unity”. 🤔
 
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steve-b said:
All others listed, are NOT Catholic nor the Catholic Church.
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That is not the Church teaching. They are considered Catholic even if they don’t realize it / are separated from it because all grace flows through the Catholic Church. Catholic = universal.

Edited to add citation:
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God… and to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320
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http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM
 
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mrsdizzyd said:
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steve-b:
All others listed, are NOT Catholic nor the Catholic Church.
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That is not the Church teaching. They are considered Catholic even if they don’t realize it / are separated from it because all grace flows through the Catholic Church. Catholic = universal.

Edited to add citation:
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God… and to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320
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http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P29.HTM
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And which part would you like to highlight? Being called doesn’t mean one responds to the calling
 
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  • the Catholic faithful,
  • others who believe in Christ,
  • and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation.
There it is. Straight from the Catechism as quoted above.
 
steve-b said:
Being called doesn’t mean one responds to the calling
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You aren’t required to respond. You can’t respond to that which you do not know. (“That” being the Catholic Church or knowledge of Christ)

Again, from the Catechism:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
  • Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
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mrsdizzyd said:
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steve-b:
Being called doesn’t mean one responds to the calling
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You aren’t required to respond. You can’t respond to that which you do not know. (“That” being the Catholic Church or knowledge of Christ)

Again, from the Catechism:
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
  • Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
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Where does it even hint that they are Catholic? It doesn’t.

As far as one’s ignorance, it can’t be presumed that people are automatically ignorant of what they should know. That does NOT come from me but the CCC

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man “takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin.” In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

That said

One’s obstinence to change to the truth, or their disobedience, can’t be ignored either.
 
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If you disagree take it up with the Church. I did not write the Catechism. In answer to the question of who make up the church the Catechism says
Who belongs to the Catholic Church?

836 "All men are called to this catholic unity of the People of God… and to it, in different ways, belong or are ordered: the Catholic faithful, others who believe in Christ, and finally all mankind, called by God’s grace to salvation."320
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Who is included in “all mankind”?
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation. 337
I
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