Who is Jesus in Islam?

[Sister_Amy]

Of course.

But Christians can comment since it contradicts the Bible directly. My conclusion - circular reasoning, which you admit as much.

Is that right? Or are you leaving out the essential fact that I said the Qur’an contains miracles of the unseen, such as prophecies about the future which came true. Ahh… that’s right.

But it’s beyond the scope of this thread, and apparently too complicated for you to understand.

 

[planten]

the Koran agrees with Jews when it repudiates the reality of crucifixion because replacing Jesus’ passion with an illusion can by no means save Jesus (Issa) in the Koran from the disgrace

I never said that some one else was on the cross. It was Jesus alright himself.

it is again Allah who conceals Jesus’ salvation from death through an unseen and unknown miracle,

** What miracle ! The death of Jesus on the cross, whose legs were also not broken. That death on the cross is no miracle. It is a miracle that Allah miraculously saved Jesus from a sure death on the cross. And the enemies of Jesus were defeated in that way. That was a living Jesus, not a dead Jesus. death did not come near him. Please think, that is a miracle or not. That is a miracle for the sake of Jesus that God made him survive the very serious ordeal of the cross, thereby defeating the plans of his enemies**.

What do u mean by the word categorically? After reading so many Koran versions/translations as well as commentaries, I still cannot find a good theological reason in Islam for Allah to prevent Issa’s death on cross.

**Why will not Allah save His dear one, Jesus from death? What reason is there for Allah to not save His servant from the humilating death onthe cross ! He always saves His near and dear ones in the moments of difficulty, like He (God) did it for Moses and Muhammad. **

More, there are many sects in Islam that have a different story concerning the illusion theory as well as various reasons for it. It is actually Muslims that know nothing about this incident but only follow a conjecture.

Peace,
Angelos N. B.

It is true that there is a story of substitution circulating in the books of Muslims. But that is not true at all. Some body tried to cook that version and fed it into the Islamic books. All of us can forget about that. That was silly (foolish) story that it was some one else on the cross. It had no real basis. Thanks.

 

[planten]

Hi again planten,

I will never accuse you of “making it up”. I know very well that you have learnt this story from the Qur’an and you believe the Qur’an to be divinely inspired scripture. I understand your beliefs, but I can not share them.

I believe the Qur’an is no match to fulfilled prophecy. Consequently, I do believe that Jesus did indeed die on Friday 3rd April 33AD.

I think we are stuck. We may just have to respect our differences and move on.

**Thanks Charlie for your good attitude. It is not the idea to convert any one. We only discuss things and help each other. WE share ideas.

Thanks also for giving the actual date of the incident of the cross. Would you please let me know wherefrom you have taken that date (3rd April 0033 A.D.) and the day (Sunday)? Thanks. I am always interested in the dates too.**

 

[Reuben_J]

Is that right? Or are you leaving out the essential fact that I said the Qur’an contains miracles of the unseen, such as prophecies about the future which came true. Ahh… that’s right.

But it’s beyond the scope of this thread, and apparently too complicated for you to understand.

Yes, it may be too complicated for me to understand.

There is no prophecies about the future that come true in the Quran from what I hear in the discussion in this forum. They are mainly claims from Muslims and the Christians have their ways of seeing them.

They are too wide in scope and the so-called prophecies can be interpretated into anything, just as the how Muslims do with the mircales of Mohammad. Remember the NASA photograph of the splitting moon? And also about the prophecies of science comes true in the Quran. Again they are too vague and wide in scope, you can explain them either way.

 

[Verisimilitude]

The topic is “Who is Jesus in Islam”. Interesting. … Thanks. So much for this time. More may be presented later if necessary.

You read/seem very familiar. Under another name perhaps. Is there any chance you will tell me what Moslem sect you follow and maybe answer the question you responded to?

The koran is unreliable for so many reasons I am amazed it is revered as it is to rational thinking people. There is no reason to believe a book (Qur’an) written 6 centuries after the event (birth of Christ) and 5 centuries after having the life and death…and Life of Christ in written form (Gospels) contains the “real” truth about Jesus. None. Not one valid, sound, identifiable, provable, commonly understood fact to support the words of Mohammed as recorded in the Qur’an about Jesus or anything.

The topic is “Who is Jesus in Islam?” Islam is the Koran and the Koran is Mohammed. Who Jesus is in Islam is Mohammeds inspired view. What inspired Mohammed is debatable but its pretty clear he had no authority to change 500 years of history. You can’t support his call was from God and not some demon. Add to that the rejection of the nearly 2000 years of accepted Jewish history (see Old Testament).

Since Islam is wrong the Jesus portrayed in the Koran is wrong and that means Mohammed is wrong. You can put Mohammed first and Islam last and its the same thing. Mohammed=Koran=Islam are all interchangable. Whoever Jesus is in Islam can be dismissed as incomplete and/or inaccurate. The simple point of my question is to suggest a change in belief for no other reason than your current one is bankrupt of logic, reason, and obvious fact.
Thanks. So much for this time. More may be presented later if necessary.

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

…Why will not Allah save His dear one, Jesus from death? What reason is there for Allah to not save His servant from the humilating death onthe cross !..

Hi planten,

The ancient prophet Isaiah told us why Allah did not save His dear one on the cross. It was Allah’s will. Isaiah told us a thousand years before it happened

The Lord [Allah] says, “It was my will that he should suffer; his death was a sacrifice to bring forgiveness. And so he will see his descendants; he will live a long life, and through him my purpose will succeed.” (Is. 53:10)

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

**Thanks Charlie for your good attitude. It is not the idea to convert any one. We only discuss things and help each other. WE share ideas.

Thanks also for giving the actual date of the incident of the cross. Would you please let me know wherefrom you have taken that date (3rd April 0033 A.D.) and the day (Sunday)? Thanks. I am always interested in the dates too.**

Here’s the link directly that explains why I believe the crucifixion took place on Friday 3rd April 33 AD…
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=1706005#post1706005

 

[paarsurrey]

Quote:
Originally Posted by planten

…Why will not Allah save His dear one, Jesus from death? What reason is there for Allah to not save His servant from the humilating death onthe cross !..

Originally Posted by Charlie Zeiter

The ancient prophet Isaiah told us why Allah did not save His dear one on the cross. It was Allah’s will. Isaiah told us a thousand years before it happened

Quote:
The Lord [Allah] says, “It was my will that he should suffer; his death was a sacrifice to bring forgiveness. And so he will see his descendants; he will live a long life, and through him my purpose will succeed.” (Is. 53:10)

Hi planten,

The ancient prophet Isaiah told us why Allah did not save His dear one on the cross. It was Allah’s will. Isaiah told us a thousand years before it happened

Hi

I couldn’t see name of Jesus mentioned in the quote of Isaiah.

Furhter, as I gather , Jesus lived upto the event of Cross, for only 33 years, while Isaiah mentions of long life. Isn’t it? I think Isasiah would have subscribed to my view that Jesus was delivered from Cross in a near-death positon and when he migrated to India he lived a long life upto 120/125 as menioned in a tradition. Jesus got married ( unlike Paul) and so he saw his descendants; and this way through him GodAllahYHWH purpose got succeeded. This is only possible if Isaiah, in my opinion, believed that Jesus would get resurrect from the near-dead , not from a really dead declrared by a physician as per present standards.

I think you would kindly agree with me.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Paarsurrey/Planten:
You can believe whatever … Mohammed wrote in the book quran, but don’t tell us to believe the same.
Kallukalam

Hi

Well you could continue being a Catholic, out of your own free will, there is no compulsion in religion.

I love Jesus and Mary

Thanks

 

[c659smith]

**Thanks Charlie for your good attitude. It is not the idea to convert any one. We only discuss things and help each other. WE share ideas.

Thanks also for giving the actual date of the incident of the cross. Would you please let me know wherefrom you have taken that date (3rd April 0033 A.D.) and the day (Sunday)? Thanks. I am always interested in the dates too.**

My intent is to convert others.

This is the year of evangelism in the Catholic Church have you not heard?

 

[bpbasilphx]

It really doesn’t matter what the Jesus of islam is because it’s not the real one of Christianity.

I confess there is no God but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate.

 

[paarsurrey]

Hi planten,

We too know what the Qur’an says. We just don’t know why we should believe it to be divinely inspired scripture.

So, while it’s fair for you to believe that Jesus died a natural death, it’s not fair for you to say he didn’t die on the cross, because that is just replacing history with an illusion.

Hi

It might be the Catholic history, in my opinion, that supports your view point a little bit, but the secular history does not support you viewpoint. They even doubt that Jesus ever existed.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

I’ve mentioned before that I thought planten and paarsurrey were one and the same person. I realise this has been denied, but you’re writing style and thoughts are incredibly similar.

Anyway, the gospels state that Jesus was speared in His side when He was on the cross; Do you suppose the gospel was wrong, or **do you suppose He survived being speared in His side too?/**QUOTE]

Hi

Yes of course, though Jesus was speared in his side, nevetheless, the spear did not reach his heart, at least his Doubting Disciple who put his fingers in Jesus’ wounds did not mention that his fingers touched his heart. So Jesus survived as his heart was not damaged in my opinion. That is a miracle of GodAllahYHWH of which Jesus had mentioned that he would show the “Sign of Jonah” and Jonah came out from the belly of the fish alive, so must Jesus come out alive to fullfill his prophecy-and you like fullfilled prophecies very much, I know that, my dear friend.

I think you agree with me , it is reasonable, no compulsion however

Thanks and regards

 

[Charlie_Zeaiter]

I’m sorry, paarsurrey; I don’t agree with any of your posts. And I don’t know how to respond anymore. I know I’ve responded to all of your points in various threads. I can’t do it any more because I know I’m just wasting time with you. You’ve sadden me.

 

[Angelos]

I never said that some one else was on the cross. It was Jesus alright himself.

Sorry, I thought you believed in the substitution theory conventionally adopted by the mainstream Islam. Does your denial of the substitiution theory mean that YOU also believe Jesus was crucified? If you believe this, you go against the Koran, which fails to support its claims about the cross through a narrative, yet explicitly rejects that Jesus was crucified:

4: 157. And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah’s messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them.

** What miracle ! The death of Jesus on the cross, whose legs were also not broken. That death on the cross is no miracle. It is a miracle that Allah miraculously saved Jesus from a sure death on the cross. And the enemies of Jesus were defeated in that way. That was a living Jesus, not a dead Jesus. death did not come near him. Please think, that is a miracle or not. That is a miracle for the sake of Jesus that God made him survive the very serious ordeal of the cross, thereby defeating the plans of his enemies**

.

Where do you read in the Koran that Jesus was crucified, but He survived death since His legs were not broken? Where do you read in the Gospels that Jesus surived death without the need of a miracle? You seem to be combining some parts of the Koran with some parts of the Gospel narratives in order to prove your personal comments that contradict both of your sources.

**Why will not Allah save His dear one, Jesus from death? What reason is there for Allah to not save His servant from the humilating death onthe cross ! He always saves His near and dear ones in the moments of difficulty, like He (God) did it for Moses and Muhammad. **

I m totally lost at this point. You say that Jesus was crucified, but He did not die there??? Why did not Allah save His beloved Jesus from crucifixion then? Why did He wait until Jesus came to the verge of death? Why did Allah let Jesus/Issa suffer on the cross? Death was the peak of Jesus’ passion. His adversaries did not want to kill Him immediately, but desired to see Him crucified and suffer for long hours According to your interpretation, they managed to do that! Where is the victory then? .

It is true that there is a story of substitution circulating in the books of Muslims. But that is not true at all. Some body tried to cook that version and fed it into the Islamic books. All of us can forget about that. That was silly (foolish) story that it was some one else on the cross. It had no real basis. Thanks.

The Muslims I have questioned on this issue support the substitution theory through the following verses:

3: 54. And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers.

5: 110. When Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother … how I restrained the Children of Israel from (harming) thee when thou camest unto them with clear proofs.

Thanks and peace,

Angelos N. B.

 

[Angelos]

Yes of course, though Jesus was speared in his side, nevetheless, the spear did not reach his heart, at least his Doubting Disciple who put his fingers in Jesus’ wounds did not mention that his fingers touched his heart. So Jesus survived as his heart was not damaged in my opinion. That is a miracle of GodAllahYHWH of which Jesus had mentioned that he would show the “Sign of Jonah” and Jonah came out from the belly of the fish alive, so must Jesus come out alive to fullfill his prophecy-and you like fullfilled prophecies very much, I know that, my dear friend.

Thanks and regards

Your interpretation of the prophecy makes no sense. Jesus does not make associations between Jonah and Himself in terms of the state of life when He points out the similarities between Jonah’s sign and His resurrection:

Matthew 12:40 For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

The only important element of similarity here concerns the lenght of time Jonah spent in the belly of the fish and Jesus is going to spend in the grave as it is clear from the emphasis on the time adverbial. Since the huge fish (something animate) corresponds to the earth (something inanimate)in this prophecy, the place where Jesus is going to spend three nights and three days entails His death.

More, your non-Islamic interpretation of the crucifixion - that Jesus was crucified, but did not die - is a slightly altered version of the traditional illusion theory acknowledged by the majority of Muslims. For them the illusion saving Jesus occurs prior to the crucifixion whilst for you and for believers like you the same illusion takes place after Jesus’ crucifixion. Thus, you both groups associate crucifixion with pretence and deception. Jesus pretending to have been crucified and killed is replaced with Jesus pretending to have been killed and buried. The truth does not abide in any of these!

Peace,
Angelos N.B.

 

[Kallukalam]

Angelos, there is no point in arguing with the muslims. These lies they have been hearing from their ustads (Madrassa Teacher) since their early childhood. It is not easy to wipe out these lies from their mind, unless these muslims earnestly want to know the TRUTH.

Kallukalam

Your interpretation of the prophecy makes no sense. Jesus does not make associations between Jonah and Himself in terms of the state of life when He points out the similarities between Jonah’s sign and His resurrection:

Matthew 12:40 For just as Jonah was in the belly of the huge fish for three days and three nights, so the Son of Man will be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights.

The only important element of similarity here concerns the lenght of time Jonah spent in the belly of the fish and Jesus is going to spend in the grave as it is clear from the emphasis on the time adverbial. Since the huge fish (something animate) corresponds to the earth (something inanimate)in this prophecy, the place where Jesus is going to spend three nights and three days entails His death.

More, your non-Islamic interpretation of the crucifixion - that Jesus was crucified, but did not die - is a slightly altered version of the traditional illusion theory acknowledged by the majority of Muslims. For them the illusion saving Jesus occurs prior to the crucifixion whilst for you and for believers like you the same illusion takes place after Jesus’ crucifixion. Thus, you both groups associate crucifixion with pretence and deception. Jesus pretending to have been crucified and killed is replaced with Jesus pretending to have been killed and buried. The truth does not abide in any of these!

Peace,
Angelos N.B.

 

[paarsurrey]

Angelos, there is no point in arguing with the muslims. These lies they have been hearing from their ustads (Madrassa Teacher) since their early childhood. It is not easy to wipe out these lies from their mind, unless these muslims earnestly want to know the TRUTH.

Kallukalam

Hi

Are you short of breath or short of arguments. Have some fresh air and refresh yourself.

Thanks

 

[Angelos]

Angelos, there is no point in arguing with the muslims. These lies they have been hearing from their ustads (Madrassa Teacher) since their early childhood. It is not easy to wipe out these lies from their mind, unless these muslims earnestly want to know the TRUTH.

Kallukalam

I know well that Muslims cannot promote Islam without attacking Christianity and Judaism. Most of their arguments are dedicated to the critique of the Christian tenets as they are presented in the Koran. What I am trying to do here is to help some sincere Muslim believers get a better understanding of Christianity from a purely Christian viewpoint.

Peace,
Angelos N.B.

 

[Sister_Amy]

I know well that Muslims cannot promote Islam without attacking Christianity and Judaism.

To the contrary. It is only Catholics on this board who cannot promote Catholicism without attacking Islam. I mean, what are you here to do but bash Islam?

Most of their arguments are dedicated to the critique of the Christian tenets as they are presented in the Koran.

Let me introduce myself. My name is Amy, and I’m pretty new. I don’t come here to argue Christianity, simply to present Islam. And you can find that in my posts thus far, I hope.

What I am trying to do here is to help some sincere Muslim believers get a better understanding of Christianity from a purely Christian viewpoint.

To the contrary, you aren’t discussing Christianity hardly at all, merely bashing Islam. Quite an easy act to see through.