Who is right??

[emeraldisle]

Why do you think Pharaoh’s servants were called MAGICIANS, for crying out loud? If they did what they did by supernatural means they’d be wizards, sorcerers, and so on, which is a different thing altogether.

David Copperfield is a modern-day magician/illusionist. He’s claimed to do all sorts of things up to and including making himself and other people disappear. Not a one of the things he’s done is supernatural in any way, nor has he ever claimed such, they’re all either trickery or illusion.

I’m sure he could’ve made an audience believe they’d seen most anything, either by working on their minds or by making something real happen which looked convincingly like what he wanted.

As for verifying the types of miracles you’re talking about - sure, it’s much more difficult with certain types of events, which is why the Church doesn’t approve many of them. However it can be and is done at times, again with appropriate independent scientific analysis and observation.

One instance is the miracle of the Sun at Fatima - October 13 1917. There were 70-90 thousand people who were there on that day. Many were journalists, many irreligious atheists who certainly were counting on absolutely nothing happening. Most all saw the miracle.

What they saw was recorded very carefully - statements taken from most if not all of them. The accunts were compared with each other and with known behaviour of the sun (which we’ve been studying since the dawn of civilisation and know very well!).

That many people simply couldn’t have all been lying or deluded. Then there were physical clues - although it was raining on that day no-one got wet, things like that.

Again, for the third time, why are you so hung up about miracles? You know what Jesus said about a generation that seeks for a sign instead of believing in Him from their hearts.

When i read Exodus 7 & 8 it doesn’t say the miracles by the magicians were illusions. They did actually happen, satan does have the power to do miracles through people. You shouldn’t dismiss satans power to do miracles through people.

I accept that satan can do miracles to people through the drinking of water to deceive them. Is there any example in the Bible of people being healed by God through the drinking of water?

Do you believe God & Allah are both the same? Im seriously seeking to find out who is doing the claimed miracles at Lourdes & Mecca.

 

[BeeSweet]

How can the God of the Bible speak though the Koran when it contradicts the Bible, Gods Word?

For God is not the author of confusion 1 Corinthians 14:33

Where it does not contradict with the Bible. There are some parts where it does not contradict. Otherwise, the Qu’ran is not the word of God, it is the word of Muhammed.

 

[ricko]

There is one God and he is the God of all mankind. He created everything and everyone. God is called by many names such as Jehovah and Allah. The Quran is the “bible” for Islam. The Holy Bible is for Christians. We as Christians do not acknowledge the Quran to be inspired by God. There are many things in it that are not, well, Christian, such as “do not make friends of the Christian or Jew”. In Christianity we are taught that all men are equal and are to be loved. This is not the case in Islam.

As far as the miracles at Lourdes which number in the hundreds not thousands as someone said, the cures are investigated by several medical personnel and clegry. Only after careful study and meeting certain requirements can a cure be called a miracle.
I doubt that the miracles in Islam meet those same requirements.

 

[AgnosTheist]

There is one God and he is the God of all mankind. He created everything and everyone.

Did you know: According to the bible Satan is the god of this world.

 

[Righteousone]

Did you know: According to the bible Satan is the god of this world.

A little much don’t you think??

 

[emeraldisle]

Where it does not contradict with the Bible. There are some parts where it does not contradict. Otherwise, the Qu’ran is not the word of God, it is the word of Muhammed.

Why would the God of the Bible give people another book which contradicted the Bible, His Word. Is the God of the Bible deliberately trying to confuse people??

Also do you believe the same power source is behind the miracles at Lourdes & Mecca?

 

[emeraldisle]

There is one God and he is the God of all mankind. He created everything and everyone. God is called by many names such as Jehovah and Allah. The Quran is the “bible” for Islam. The Holy Bible is for Christians. We as Christians do not acknowledge the Quran to be inspired by God. There are many things in it that are not, well, Christian, such as “do not make friends of the Christian or Jew”. In Christianity we are taught that all men are equal and are to be loved. This is not the case in Islam.

As far as the miracles at Lourdes which number in the hundreds not thousands as someone said, the cures are investigated by several medical personnel and clegry. Only after careful study and meeting certain requirements can a cure be called a miracle.
I doubt that the miracles in Islam meet those same requirements.

The Koran says that Jesus is only a prophet but the Bible says Jesus is the Son of God. This clearly shows us that the God of the Bible can not be the same as the Allah of the Koran.

Also if the miracles at both Lourdes and Mecca are being done by the same power source then this power source can’t be the God of the Bible. Because the God of the Bible is very clearly not the Allah of the Koran.

 

[LilyM]

When i read Exodus 7 & 8 it doesn’t say the miracles by the magicians were illusions. They did actually happen, satan does have the power to do miracles through people. You shouldn’t dismiss satans power to do miracles through people.

I accept that satan can do miracles to people through the drinking of water to deceive them. Is there any example in the Bible of people being healed by God through the drinking of water?

Do you believe God & Allah are both the same? Im seriously seeking to find out who is doing the claimed miracles at Lourdes & Mecca.

My Bible (NAB) says that ‘the magicians of Egypt did likewise by their magic arts’ (Ex 7:11, my emphasis). To me that means that they didn’t do so by any sort of supernatural intervention, whether Godly or not. Or it would’ve said ‘the devil performed xyz for them’.

Rather by their own devices - namely trickery or illusion (though perhaps they wrongly believed that what they did WAS by divine intervention).

By contrast, the miracles of Moses and Aaron were clearly done by God. Hence with the later ones the magicians didn’t even attempt to do the same - they knew they couldnt.

As for cures from drinking water - offhand I can’t think of any, although of course there is Naaman the Syrian who was cured by bathing in the Jordan.

And in Leviticus there is a sort of trial indicated, to be done on women accused of infidelity I believe, where they are made to drink water after certain prayers, and they are physically harmed if they’ve been unfaithful.

Please believe me when I say that if your faith comes from the right place it won’t matter in the slightest whence these miracles come. They’re a sidenote of a sidenote to the beliefs of both Islam and Christianity, not the main event. You’re well and truly putting the cart before the horse here.

It’s not like faith in Christianity or Islam compels you to believe that any event is miraculous (except of course those contained in Scripture itself, the Bible if you’re Christian, the Quran if you’re Muslim).

So if you want an answer, my answer is I don’t know, I don’t care and it doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter where the cures come from. And for that matter it doesn’t make a difference whether or not Allah is the same God as Yahweh. What matters is that I DO believe Yahweh is the one true God. What matters equally is that I also believe Jesus Christ is His only son, and that I could never believe in an Islam which denies this latter truth.

I don’t believe in Christ based on the cures of Lourdes, neither, were I to convert to Islam, would I believe in Muhammad based on the miracles of Zimzam.

 

[emeraldisle]

My Bible (NAB) says that ‘the magicians of Egypt did likewise by their magic arts’ (Ex 7:11, my emphasis). To me that means that they didn’t do so by any sort of supernatural intervention, whether Godly or not. Or it would’ve said ‘the devil performed xyz for them’.

Rather by their own devices - namely trickery or illusion (though perhaps they wrongly believed that what they did WAS by divine intervention).

By contrast, the miracles of Moses and Aaron were clearly done by God. Hence with the later ones the magicians didn’t even attempt to do the same - they knew they couldnt.

As for cures from drinking water - offhand I can’t think of any, although of course there is Naaman the Syrian who was cured by bathing in the Jordan.

And in Leviticus there is a sort of trial indicated, to be done on women accused of infidelity I believe, where they are made to drink water after certain prayers, and they are physically harmed if they’ve been unfaithful.

Please believe me when I say that if your faith comes from the right place it won’t matter in the slightest whence these miracles come. They’re a sidenote of a sidenote to the beliefs of both Islam and Christianity, not the main event. You’re well and truly putting the cart before the horse here.

It’s not like faith in Christianity or Islam compels you to believe that any event is miraculous (except of course those contained in Scripture itself, the Bible if you’re Christian, the Quran if you’re Muslim).

So if you want an answer, my answer is I don’t know, I don’t care and it doesn’t matter. Doesn’t matter where the cures come from. And for that matter it doesn’t make a difference whether or not Allah is the same God as Yahweh. What matters is that I DO believe Yahweh is the one true God. What matters equally is that I also believe Jesus Christ is His only son, and that I could never believe in an Islam which denies this latter truth.

I don’t believe in Christ based on the cures of Lourdes, neither, were I to convert to Islam, would I believe in Muhammad based on the miracles of Zimzam.

Are you really suggesting that the god of this world wasn’t involved in what was happening in Ex 7 & 8. The magicians were just satans puppets, of course he was pulling their strings and was very much involved in what they were doing. Also the Bible doesn’t say that what the magicians did were illusions, they weren’t they actually happened.

As for basing ones faith on miracles well thats not my question, my question is did the same God do the claimed miracles by the drinking of water at Lourdes and Mecca. It a simple question and i think a very important one because the Bible says there is only one true God and He isn’t the Allah of the Koran.

 

[Valke2]

When i read Exodus 7 & 8 it doesn’t say the miracles by the magicians were illusions. They did actually happen, satan does have the power to do miracles through people. You shouldn’t dismiss satans power to do miracles through people.

I accept that satan can do miracles to people through the drinking of water to deceive them. Is there any example in the Bible of people being healed by God through the drinking of water?

Do you believe God & Allah are both the same? Im seriously seeking to find out who is doing the claimed miracles at Lourdes & Mecca.

I don’t know if Satan had anything to do with it, but I agree that there’s nothing in Exodus to suggest the pharoah’s magicians weren’t doing real magic

 

[BeeSweet]

Why would the God of the Bible give people another book which contradicted the Bible, His Word. Is the God of the Bible deliberately trying to confuse people??

Also do you believe the same power source is behind the miracles at Lourdes & Mecca?

God did not give us the Qu’ran, Muhammed gave us the Qu’ran. Muhammed caused all the confusion because he was confused himself. He knew some of the stories of the Bible and repeated what he heard as best he could. He often mixed things up though, and would also make up what he didn’t understand or couldn’t remember.

I know that the appearance of the well at Zamzam for Hagar was the work of God, as was the miracle at Lourdes. I don’t know of any miracles attributed to those well waters besides that, so I really can’t speak to it. I believe God sends His grace to whomever He pleases.

 

[emeraldisle]

God did not give us the Qu’ran, Muhammed gave us the Qu’ran. Muhammed caused all the confusion because he was confused himself. He knew some of the stories of the Bible and repeated what he heard as best he could. He often mixed things up though, and would also make up what he didn’t understand or couldn’t remember.

I know that the appearance of the well at Zamzam for Hagar was the work of God, as was the miracle at Lourdes. I don’t know of any miracles attributed to those well waters besides that, so I really can’t speak to it. I believe God sends His grace to whomever He pleases.

Yes i agree that God very definitely didn’t give us the Koran, which teaches that Jesus is only a prophet. I believe this teaching came from satan, therefore the real author of the Koran is the god of this world. This is why im asking the question about the claimed miracles at Lourdes & Mecca.

Now we have come to an understanding that Allah isn’t the God of the Bible then the claimed miracles at Mecca can’t be from the God of the Bible. Now where does this leave the claimed miracles at Lourdes which are the same as at Mecca, i.e. through the drinking of water.

Why can’t both be right? Catholics worship the God of Abraham as do Jews and Muslims. Catholics know God through His Word Jesus Christ, but that doesn’t mean Jews and Muslims don’t worship the same God because they don’t know Him as we know Him. He is the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

I don’t agree with your comments because the God of the Bible very clearly states that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. However Judaism & Islam both teach that Jesus isn’t the Son of God. Either Gods Word is true when it says Jesus is the Son of God or it isn’t true if you believe what Judaism & Islam teaches. Both can’t be right. The God of the Bible cannot be the God of Judaism or Islam because they totally deny what God says in His Word, that Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[BeeSweet]

Yes i agree that God very definitely didn’t give us the Koran, which teaches that Jesus is only a prophet. I believe this teaching came from satan, therefore the real author of the Koran is the god of this world. This is why im asking the question about the claimed miracles at Lourdes & Mecca.

Now we have come to an understanding that Allah isn’t the God of the Bible then the claimed miracles at Mecca can’t be from the God of the Bible. Now where does this leave the claimed miracles at Lourdes which are the same as at Mecca, i.e. through the drinking of water.

I don’t agree with your comments because the God of the Bible very clearly states that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. However Judaism & Islam both teach that Jesus isn’t the Son of God. Either Gods Word is true when it says Jesus is the Son of God or it isn’t true if you believe what Judaism & Islam teaches. Both can’t be right. The God of the Bible cannot be the God of Judaism or Islam because they totally deny what God says in His Word, that Jesus is the Son of God.

Only the New Testament of the Bible very clearly states that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus had to open the minds of the apostles to understand the Old Testament was being fulfilled by His ministry.

Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures.
Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures.

Without Jesus they just do not understand. They do worship the same God, but they don’t know Him since they don’t know Jesus. But they have to worship the same God, because Jesus was a Jew, and Isaac and Ishmael were both the sons of Abraham, Isaac being the father of the Jews and Ishmael being the father of the Arabs (Muslims).

As for the miracles at Lourdes and Mecca, God grants His grace to whomever He pleases.

 

[paarsurrey]

Why would the God of the Bible give people another book which contradicted the Bible, His Word. Is the God of the Bible deliberately trying to confuse people??
Also do you believe the same power source is behind the miracles at Lourdes & Mecca?

Hi

There is no confusion or doubt in Quran and it confirms the truth found in other Revealed Books of the Revealed Religions.

The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah

[2:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[2:2] Alif, Lam, Mim.
[2:3] **This ( Quran) is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous, **[2:4] Who believe in the unseen and observe prayer and spend out of what We have provided for them.
[2:5] And who believe in **that which has been revealed to thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee **and they have firm faith in the hereafter.
[2:6] It is they who follow the guidance from their Lord and it is they who shall prosper.
[2:7] Those who have disbelieved - it being alike to them whether thou warn them or warn them not - they will not believe.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=2

So there is no confusion in Quran, rather it resolves the confusion, in my opinion, of the Catholics and non-Catholics alike if they are righteous and God-fearing, this Quran maintains in the above verses.

Thanks

 

[emeraldisle]

Only the New Testament of the Bible very clearly states that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus had to open the minds of the apostles to understand the Old Testament was being fulfilled by His ministry.

Luke 24:27 Then beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he interpreted to them what referred to him in all the scriptures.
Luke 24:45 Then he opened their minds to understand the scriptures.

Without Jesus they just do not understand. They do worship the same God, but they don’t know Him since they don’t know Jesus. But they have to worship the same God, because Jesus was a Jew, and Isaac and Ishmael were both the sons of Abraham, Isaac being the father of the Jews and Ishmael being the father of the Arabs (Muslims).

As for the miracles at Lourdes and Mecca, God grants His grace to whomever He pleases.

The following is what Jesus said to Jews who didn’t believe He was the Son of God;

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” John 8:37-47 (NKJV) Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

Jesus clearly tells these Jews that because they don’t believe in Him as Gods Son then they are of satan and not of God. So anyone who says Jesus is not the Son of God doesn’t believe in the true God of the Bible and Jesus says they are of satan.

Now with this in mind who is doing the claimed miracles at Mecca? The God of the Bible isn’t doing these claimed miracles because Islam doesn’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God. So who is doing these claimed miracles??

 

[BeeSweet]

The following is what Jesus said to Jews who didn’t believe He was the Son of God;

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.” John 8:37-47 (NKJV) Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson, Inc.

Jesus clearly tells these Jews that because they don’t believe in Him as Gods Son then they are of satan and not of God. So anyone who says Jesus is not the Son of God doesn’t believe in the true God of the Bible and Jesus says they are of satan.

Now with this in mind who is doing the claimed miracles at Mecca? The God of the Bible isn’t doing these claimed miracles because Islam doesn’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God. So who is doing these claimed miracles??

Jesus already acknowledges they are the sons of Abraham. By telling them they are sons of the devil, he is using hyperbole, a poetic device used to drive home the message to them that by killing them they are sinning. Otherwise, he would be contradicting himself, to say first they are descendants of Abraham, and then again that they are sons of the devil. Satan is not a creator, he can have no children (which is why he went after Eve in the garden rather than Adam, because her fecundity is so attractive to him).

Can you cite a specific miracle at Mecca which you believe was not of God?

 

[emeraldisle]

Jesus already acknowledges they are the sons of Abraham. By telling them they are sons of the devil, he is using hyperbole, a poetic device used to drive home the message to them that by killing them they are sinning. Otherwise, he would be contradicting himself, to say first they are descendants of Abraham, and then again that they are sons of the devil. Satan is not a creator, he can have no children (which is why he went after Eve in the garden rather than Adam, because her fecundity is so attractive to him).

Can you cite a specific miracle at Mecca which you believe was not of God?

Jesus is addressing two different issues, one is the human and the other is the spiritual. Humanly speaking these Jews were Abraham’s descendants but spiritually speaking they were children of satan. Its the same today because there are humanly speaking Jews & Muslims who are descendants of Abraham but they don’t believe that Jesus is the Son of God so they are spiritually children of satan.

All claimed miracles done in the name of Allah are of satan because Allah is not the God of the Bible. In the Koran Allah teaches his followers that Jesus isn’t the Son of God and Jesus says anyone who doesn’t believe He is the Son of God belongs to satan and not the God of the Bible.

The claimed miracles in Mecca are claimed to be done in the name of Allah who is not the God of the Bible. Also these claimed miracles are said to be done through the drinking of water, which is the same claim at Lourdes. This is why im asking the question, “who is doing the claimed miracles at Lourdes?”

 

[Righteousone]

Hi

There is no confusion or doubt in Quran and it confirms the truth found in other Revealed Books of the Revealed Religions.

The Holy Quran : Chapter 2: Al-Baqarah

[2:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[2:2] Alif, Lam, Mim.
[2:3] **This ( Quran) is a perfect Book; there is no doubt in it; it is a guidance for the righteous, **[2:4] Who believe in the unseen and observe prayer and spend out of what We have provided for them.
[2:5] And who believe in **that which has been revealed to thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee **and they have firm faith in the hereafter.
[2:6] It is they who follow the guidance from their Lord and it is they who shall prosper.
[2:7] Those who have disbelieved - it being alike to them whether thou warn them or warn them not - they will not believe.
www3.alislam.org/showChapter.jsp?ch=2

So there is no confusion in Quran, rather it resolves the confusion, in my opinion, of the Catholics and non-Catholics alike if they are righteous and God-fearing, this Quran maintains in the above verses.

Thanks

Still waiting for you to answer my question…:coffeeread:

 

[Deconi]

If you believe there can be ANY miracles performed by ‘another’ god, then your premise is awry.

ALL MIRACLES are of God, and FROM God! Whether they occur at Mecca or Lourdes is IRRELEVANT!

It is the perception that the place they occur is important that continues ‘your’ confusion. It is simplictic to say that because they may occur in Mecca, then it cannot be Christian. Just as it is to say, if they occur at Lourdes, then they cannot be Muslim.

Christian or Muslim, a miracle can occur for you at either Mecca or Lourdes for both are God’s children. He does not love the Muslim LESS because s/he is not Christian. Nor does He love the Christian MORE because s/he is not Muslim.

What people say about and attache to these occurrences because of WHERE they occur is man-made and man-opined.

 

[BeeSweet]

If you believe there can be ANY miracles performed by ‘another’ god, then your premise is awry.

ALL MIRACLES are of God, and FROM God! Whether they occur at Mecca or Lourdes is IRRELEVANT!

It is the perception that the place they occur is important that continues ‘your’ confusion. It is simplictic to say that because they may occur in Mecca, then it cannot be Christian. Just as it is to say, if they occur at Lourdes, then they cannot be Muslim.

Christian or Muslim, a miracle can occur for you at either Mecca or Lourdes for both are God’s children. He does not love the Muslim LESS because s/he is not Christian. Nor does He love the Christian MORE because s/he is not Muslim.

What people say about and attache to these occurrences because of WHERE they occur is man-made and man-opined.

I agree. As it says in the Catechism of the Catholic Church regarding the Lord’s prayer:

2793 The baptized cannot pray to “our” Father without bringing before him all those for whom he gave his beloved Son. God’s love has no bounds, neither should our prayer. Praying “our” Father opens to us the dimensions of his love revealed in Christ: praying with and for all who do not yet know him, so that Christ may “gather into one the children of God.” (John 11:52) God’s care for all men and for the whole of creation has inspired all the great practitioners of prayer; it should extend our prayer to the full breadth of love whenever we dare to say “our” Father.

God’s ways are not our ways, He imparts His grace and mercy on whomever He chooses. Those who do not know Christ are left to the mercy of God, and He is most merciful. Human beings can not be children of satan, all human beings are children of God. It is their sinful actions which belong to satan. Jesus was exaggerating to prove a point when He spoke as He did in John 8. Just as he was in Matthew 18 when he spoke of us cutting off limbs and gouging out our eyes if they cause us to sin. Saint Paul tells us in 1 Corinthians 6: 19-20 " Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, which you have from God? You are not your own; you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. " Christ would not have us destroy God’s temple by physically hurting ourselves. God takes no Glory in such things. And so, like the father of the prodigal son, Our Father waits for us to come to know Him through His Son Our Lord Jesus Christ. We are all children of God, ALL of us, Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu. Our divisions are a trick of the devil. Christ came to help us destroy our divisions and become one in love knowing Him, knowing we are all one in Him. Those who do not know Him need only find Him.