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billcu1
Guest
I wish someone would bring up here the fact that some of the saints are said to have had conversations with Satan. I am not quite sure what “conversation” means here.
Bill
Bill
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petersomething
Guest
They had conversations with him because as they became more purified spiritually, they became more of a threat to his dominion over earth. And so he attacked them. And this is not done through physical violence but on a subtle level where he seeks to distort their understanding of spiritual truth. From there, then it all opens up.
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phil_at_dayboro
Guest
Who is this satan character anyway ?
It’s not on my Christmas card list,
It’s not on my Christmas card list,
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friardchips
Guest
But it can be both.
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Robert_Sock
Guest
The parable: A king desired to test the moral strength of his only son. He had a most charming and clever woman brought before him. Explaining to her the purpose of the test, he ordered her to exert every effort to seduce the crown prince. For the test to be valid, the supposed harlot had to use all her charms and guile, without betraying her mission in the slightest way. Any imperfection on her part would mean disobedience, and the failure of her mission. However, while she uses all her seductive powers, she inwardly desires that the prince should not succumb to them.
chabad.org/dailystudy/tanya.asp?tdate=1/1/2015&mobile=false
meltzerboy
New member
Yes, Judaism believes that HaSatan inwardly wants us to remain faithful to G-d despite Satan’s most clever temptations. The latter is the tempter and the accuser before the heavenly tribunal; he is the one who forces us to defend ourselves and judge our own actions before G-d and His final judgment. Further, it is believed that Satan is the one who, as the Angel of Death, executes the sentence of G-d’s judgment if we are separated from Him since G-d cannot bear to do so Himself.
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Usagi
Guest
I think a proper Christian view of Satan would be very similar if looked at from God’s point of view – He allows Satan to continue to act in order to serve as a tester, but naturally intends (and helps) us to pass. We just think that Satan himself wants us to lose, in order to deprive God of at least some of His children.
It’s true, though, that some Christian groups (especially those that focus heavily on Satan and spiritual warfare against him, oddly enough) seem to make Satan almost an equal-and-opposite anti-God. In the proper view, Satan is still infinitely less powerful than God and will lose in the end, though as with the angels he’ll likely manage to drag some humans to Hell with him. But his “wins” can only be individual, and he only acts at all because (and to the extent that) God permits it.
Usagi
It’s true, though, that some Christian groups (especially those that focus heavily on Satan and spiritual warfare against him, oddly enough) seem to make Satan almost an equal-and-opposite anti-God. In the proper view, Satan is still infinitely less powerful than God and will lose in the end, though as with the angels he’ll likely manage to drag some humans to Hell with him. But his “wins” can only be individual, and he only acts at all because (and to the extent that) God permits it.
Usagi
St. Faustina
137 - Satan tried to persuade me into believing that if my superiors have told me that my inner life is an illusion, why should I ask again and trouble the confessor? Didn’t M.X. tell you that the Lord Jesus does not commune with souls as miserable as yours? This confessor is going to tell you the same thing. Why speak to him about all this? These are not sins, and Mother X. told you that all this communing with the Lord Jesus was daydreaming and pure hysteria. So why tell it to this confessor? You would do better to dismiss all this as illusions. Look how many humiliations you have suffered because of them, and how many more are still awaiting you, and all the sisters know that you are a hysteric. “Jesus!” I called out with all the strength of my soul.
411 - After Holy Mass, I felt completely immersed in God and am still conscious of His every glance into the depth of my heart. About midday, I entered the chapel for a moment, and again the power of grace struck my heart. As I continued in a state of recollection, Satan took a flowerpot and angrily hurled it to the ground with all his might. I saw all his rage and his jealousy.
412 - I feel asleep as soon as I lay down, but at about eleven o’clock Satan shook my bed. I awoke instantly, and I started to pray peacefully to my Guardian Angel.
644 - Satan began to mock me, “See, now you will no longer strive to win souls; look how you’ve been paid! Nobody will believe you that Jesus demands this. See how much you are suffering now, and how much more you are going to suffer! After all, the confessor has now released you from all these things.” Now I can live as I like, as long as things are all right outwardly. These dreadful thoughts tormented me throughout the whole hour.
713 - This evening, as I was writing about this great mercy of God and its great advantage to souls, Satan rushed into my room with great anger and fury. He seized the screen and began to break and crush it. I was a little frightened at first, but immediately made the sign of the cross with my little crucifix, and the beast fell quiet and disappeared at once.
1127 - On one occasion, I saw Satan hurrying about and looking for someone among the sisters, but he could find no one. I felt an interior inspiration to command him in the Name of God to confess to me what he was looking for among the sisters. And he confessed, though unwillingly, “I am looking for idle souls.” When I commanded him again in the Name of God to tell me to which souls in religious life he has the easiest access, he said, again unwillingly, “To lazy and idle souls.” I took note of the fact that, at present, there were no such souls in this house. Let the toiling and tired souls rejoice.
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Norrin_Radd
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This is the Christian theology concerning Satan (all Christian denominations including the Orthodox Christians): God created Lucifer, the greatest, most-beautiful, and wisest of all the angels. He belonged to the Seraphim, the highest order of the angels, in which St. Michael and St. Gabriel belong to as well. Then God created man, which is a species lower than the angels, but were also both spiritual and material in nature. Man was created to God’s prized creation. And he commanded ALL angels to bow to man as his greatest creation. There was one angel, called Lucifer (which means light of the morning star), who refused to bow to man. He said, “I shall not serve” and therefore believed that he should be just as high as the Almighty.
Once Lucifer believed that he should be as high as the Almighty, there was another great angel, St. Michael, whose name means “Who is like God?”, rose up to do battle with Lucifer. The Book of Revelations (12:7-9) describes the great battle in heaven like this:
“…there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.” After the conflict, Satan is thrown to earth along with the fallen angels, where he (“that ancient serpent called the devil”) still tries to “lead the whole world astray”.
So who are the angels that were felled by Michael in heaven? Those are the angels who became demons. One third, or 33% of all the angels created were driven out of heaven and cast on to earth, not hell, as popularly believed. Revelations makes this clear that they were cast down to the world, where they reside.
It was not until the birth and death of Jesus Christ that Lucifer’s power was truly broken in this world. He has been defeated by the Cross, but he still wanders this world seeking the ruin of souls. More can be said about this foul creature, but what has been provided is sufficient at this point.
Once Lucifer believed that he should be as high as the Almighty, there was another great angel, St. Michael, whose name means “Who is like God?”, rose up to do battle with Lucifer. The Book of Revelations (12:7-9) describes the great battle in heaven like this:
“…there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.” After the conflict, Satan is thrown to earth along with the fallen angels, where he (“that ancient serpent called the devil”) still tries to “lead the whole world astray”.
So who are the angels that were felled by Michael in heaven? Those are the angels who became demons. One third, or 33% of all the angels created were driven out of heaven and cast on to earth, not hell, as popularly believed. Revelations makes this clear that they were cast down to the world, where they reside.
It was not until the birth and death of Jesus Christ that Lucifer’s power was truly broken in this world. He has been defeated by the Cross, but he still wanders this world seeking the ruin of souls. More can be said about this foul creature, but what has been provided is sufficient at this point.
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Timothysis
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This is nothing but pious folklore.
This is a commentary that is hardly accepted universally. It is thought by many scholars and theologians that Revelations is a message written in apocalyptic literary style describing the events of the day during the early persecutions of the Church.
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livingwordunity
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When did that first become an official teaching with Jews? And is this what all Jews (the non-Christian ones) of today believe?
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thistle
Guest
Sorry if I have misunderstood you by the way you have expressed your comment but Lucifer, Satan, The Devil are different names for the same fallen angel.
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Norrin_Radd
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No, how can you be so sure that this is nothing but pious folklore? I’ll let you know what my sources are (not biblical) if you reveal where you get your conclusion. By simply saying that this is “pious folklore” provides no conclusive credibility. I understand that this topic is based on faith and therefore no scientific evidence could be presented, but my request still stands, where do you get your source?
In addition, who are these scholars and theologians that you mention that state that Revelations is a message written apocalyptic literary style describing the events of the day? Do these scholars have credibility in all major denominations of Christianity? What do you mean by apocalyptic style? IF, by apocalyptic, you mean the gloom and doom of our future, then yes, of course, it is written in apocalyptic style. Otherwise, Revelations wouldn’t be “Revelations”. In addition, which events of the day are you referring to that are tied to the apocalyptic style?
If you are to rebut posts, you must provide greater detail to strengthen your argument. This way, you give me some foundation to provide a clearer response of my own.
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Timothysis
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You are the one making the statement as fact. The proof is on you to substantiate your claim.
These scholars are the same people who, if you read a Catholic Commentary on scripture, are the ones who through knowledge and scholarship arrive at the conclusions that they do that are also repeated by the teaching authority of the Church. BTW, when something is said to be apocalyptic in style or nature, it means that it is revealing something (a truth, perhaps) through its literary style, in the same way that the term “Revelations” reveals Truth to us.
If you are going to speak from a position of authority and knowledge, then YOU are the one who must provide the credentials.
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Norrin_Radd
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But you are doing the same thing that you claim I am doing. Tell me, how is it that my statements are folklore?
I am quite well-read and know exactly what my Catholic heritage has stated about the evil one. You still have not provided name(s) of these theologians. Is it Aquinas? Which church doctors are you referring to? Please be specific. There is not one theologian that is considered a doctor of the church that has refuted the existence of the Enemy. In fact, my statements are in complete agreement in what has been stated for almost 20 centuries by the Church.
As for apocalyptic, it is my understanding that this means a “prophecy” that describes doom. If this is what you are referring to, then we are in agreement. But the apocalyptic style, at least in my view, is a style of writing that predicts doom and, in this case, it would be the Book of Revelation.
But you are speaking from a position of authority and knowledge yourself. You are doing exactly what you are accusing me of doing. Please provide names of these theologians so that we could dissect our arguments and debate logically about the subject at hand. I am actually curious as to learn which Catholic theologians consider the story of the heavenly war as “pious folklore” and, at the same time, dismiss the meaning of Revelation as simply being written in apocalyptic style, which only serves to dilute its message.
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Norrin_Radd
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This is in response to (name removed by moderator):
Of course this is Christian theology. It could also be part of Islam’s theology, since both religions sprung from Judaism and have many similarities. But Lucifer is mentioned in both the Old and New Testaments. However, in the Old Testament, Lucifer is never actually named. I’m curious to know, are you really a deacon, or is that just call name?
Of course this is Christian theology. It could also be part of Islam’s theology, since both religions sprung from Judaism and have many similarities. But Lucifer is mentioned in both the Old and New Testaments. However, in the Old Testament, Lucifer is never actually named. I’m curious to know, are you really a deacon, or is that just call name?
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Timothysis
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I have no desire to play a game of Armchair Theologian. Suffice it to say that the Church does not teach as truth, dogma or fact any of the things that you mention. What may be the personal opinions of people like Aquinas are just that, personal opinions. They do not hold the weight of authority and they do not speak for the Church. If you have some definitive authority of what went on in Heaven before the creation of the universe, then please do us all a favor and share. But as Deacon Jeff said, what you cite is not regarded as “Christian theology” but a mishmash of folklore, myths, legends and cultural influence from outside of Christian and Jewish thought. As an example, a poster here on CAF once said that Satan replied, upon his loss of Heaven, “better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven” which is, of course, from Milton’s Paradise Lost, a 17th century work! Drawing inferences from snippets here and there does not make something factual.
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Timothysis
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If you are interested, Wikipedia has a very good article on “Lucifer” that addresses many of the things you present as fact. Deacon Jeff is exactly right that much of what we take to be the story of Lucifer/Satan is taken from Islam.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
So, you are saying that lucifer is the father of himself.
Does this mean that all of us are the fathers of ourselves?
However, no matter how you put it, lucifer did not create himself, God created him.
Wouldn’t God have known just what lucifer was going to do since God is Omniscient?
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