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kalt
Guest
Your debate style is invalid. You haven’t been able to prove your debate point. And you haven’t been able to convince a single poster here that your opinion is accurate. So you resort to an invalid debate tactic - claim that anyone who disagrees with your point is stupid or evil. Stupid - the rest of the bible won’t make sense to you if you don’t accept your personal interpretation of one verse. Evil - anyone who doesn’t accept your opinion of Islam is anti-God.
If you can’t prove your point in honest debate, just give up the point. It’s only a debate.
T
TimeToGrow
Guest
Hello BW,I didn’t say agnostics - I said Gnostics. There’s a big difference.
As for Muslims not existing at the time…that’s obvious. I wasn’t arguing they were. I was arguing that John spoke out against a certain type of mindset that would condemn Islam as much as the Gnostics.
Please quote me where He did. God clearly says that His covenant is not with Isaac, but with Ishmael, and from this covenant came Christ. Muslims claim Mohammad to be part of this same covenant, even though the account in Genesis says otherwise.
Then God said: “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; I will establish My covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his descendants after him. And as for Ishmael, I have heard you. Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly. He shall beget twelve princes, and I will make him a great nation. But My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this set time next year.” [Gen 17:19-21; NKJV]
God blesses Ishmael out of love and compassion for his circumstances, but He quite clearly says that the only one receiving a covenant - the covenant of God, which is everlasting - is Isaac, not Ishmael.
ANti-Christ doesn’t mean what many say it mean. Ishmael Was blessed not cursed by God and the Pope never uses such language about those people. And there are many covenants in the scripture. Which basically means that the Lord is working with many in some form for some reason. Not all the Same. He would bless them with twelve tribes and they would become a great nation. And still Are.
I never said they were the Children of Promise and that isn’t what was meant although I can understand that that could be taken as what I meant. MUslim have many good qualities and like even our own have some that don’t adhere to their teachings… But they believe in God… They have trusted that Israel’s God has blessed them and still does.
ANti-CHrist doesn’t mean those who have different beliefs in God in their faith. ANti-CHrist means those who Claim the Lord Of Israel as their God as “Christ” and does anothers will or bidding… They are False.
And this is the result of there works…
41 I receive glory not from men. 42 But I know you, that you have not the love of God in you. 43 I am come in the name of my Father, and you receive me not: “”""""" if another shall come in his own name, him you will receive."""""" 44 How can you believe, who receive glory one from another: and the glory which is from God alone, you do not seek? 45 Think not that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one that accuseth you, Moses, in whom you trust.
46 For if you did believe Moses, you would perhaps believe me also; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?
He is a deciever. If he comes he will decieve the Jews into thinking he is their Messiah because he seeks to fulfill their will… He is probably more of a Christian Zionist than anything. He rises out of those who fall away as they go further into heresy and schism.
Peace and Godbless
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
There are many covenants in scripture, but none are addressed to Ishmael. In fact, except for a few references to Ishmaelites and Paul’s discussion on election, Ishmael is forgotten about for the rest of the Bible. It isn’t until Islam that suddenly Ishmael is thrown into the spotlight again, and the claim is made that Ishmael was part of that covenant. In fact, Ishmael was never part of any covenant - only Isaac was, as through Isaac’s seed came Christ.
On another note, you made the statement in your previous post that God made a covenant with Ishmael. I asked to quote where in the scripture God did. I’d like to ask again: where does God make a covenant with Ishmael?
They believe in a version of God, but the Quran denies the divinity of Christ, the crucifixion, the Resurrection, and many other beliefs that are paramount to the Christian faith and Christian idea of God. As Christians we recognize that God is a Trinitarian God, an idea which Islam staunchly condemns.
To deny any Person in the Trinity is to deny all of God, because each Person in the Trinity represents the fullness of God. The Trinity is not a buffet where you can pick the Father but the Son or the Holy Spirit, or any other combination and still think you have a valid idea of God. That would contradict scripture and 2000 years of patristics and tradition.
Let’s review the passage again.
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world. [1 John 4:1-3; NKJV]
Again, St. John is speaking of the Gnostics, who denied Christ’s body, hence the phraseology “Jesus Christ has come in the flesh.” John is advocating an understanding of what would later be known as the hypostatic union, or Christ’s full humanity and full deity. This isn’t talking about those who claim Jesus is God and being hypocrites in their deeds - this is talking about those who don’t understand Christ being God in the fullest sense. Muslims are the exact opposite of the Gnostics: they accept His humanity, but not His deity.
I’m sorry, but I’m a bit lost - I don’t understand what that has to do with what we’re talking about.
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TimeToGrow
Guest
Hello BW,
Your using the Term God as if Paul and the Apostles are refering to pagan god’s or other religious beliefs. Only when CHristians were using some of their beliefs as Christians to understand. Heresy was the mingling of beliefs that were false. THat was anti-christ not the gnostic himself who knew nothing of Christ or called him Lord. Only gnostics who embrassed the Christian faith who taught wrongly…
He is talking to those who the LORD is Their God. They had Gone out claiming the Lord as their God. They are dealing with those peoples who either are in the Church and left or those who say CHrist isn’t the Messiah which could only be a Jew because CHrist is a Jewish belief not a gentile or pagan theology… Usually meant those who claim the Lord and denied or were teaching wrongly.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with those who the LORD had not been their GOD… Although they could be pawns of the false children… He (the LORD) YHWY is our God. He commands them not the Pagan. THe Lord is only God to those he reveals himself to.
He That is the Anti-CHrist Denies that Jesus is the CHrist… Or calls or continues to call YHWY his Lord and doesn’t do the things he says… It has nothing to do with Muslims, Hindues, budda or anything Like that… The Lord hadn’t appeared to them only to those he has chosen or called.
MUslims are just confused like so many. I don’t know why?
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I mean if you wanted to have the blessings that Abraham hoped and patiently waited for? It seems logical that Christian beliefs would be the answer. Especially if your a Muslim. But they don't appear to care about what the Actual blessing of Abraham was but rather that Israel no longer has it. Which in their mind was Jerusalem or the Land of Israel.The Pope doesn’t say anything bad about muslims. His most popular remarks towards the peoples of Abraham is to remind them of their heritage… It means something, The Lord as he blessed them with twelve tribes and that they would become a great nation…
The Lord came to the Seed of Isaac not Ishamel, The Lord was Israel’s God and he was also Ishamels God. The one Israel he Commanded as their Lord. The other he never commanded as their Lord… They both lived on faith in promises… He never Promised Ishmael the heritage of Israel.
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TimeToGrow
Guest
Hello BW,
I don’t have much time to post or explain in some details but have to instead post in short. Too don’t write well either, hope some comments further will clarify.
Addressing those scripture I quoted.
Basically Christ was telling those Jews who were rejecting who he was about something they might do in the future. CHrist basically tells them because they didn’t believe Moses, they would believe falsely or wrongly. They rejected him and their still weighting for a Messiah.
He said "if one comes in his own name? Him you will recieve. To paraphrase “they believe another as their Messiah” Their CHrist or Messiah. That is who the anti-christ is. He represents those who work against the Jew believing in or coming to the truth of Christ. And I don’t see that in a Muslim as they cliam he is thier messiah.
He is a false messiah to the elect of God, But to those who are decieved and that could be many of different religions who buy into this charactor and the reasons could be many?
Now if the Jews in the future believe in this False messiah? As Christ said “If one Comes in his own name” Not sure when that wilI be? I don’t think the muslims will believe it. Because they believe Jesus was their or Israel’s Messiah. They believe in the Virgin Birth and Mary. They hadn’t believed they would inherit any of Israel’s inheritance. But believe Israel got what they were promised.
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For whatever reason the world empowers this anti-christ. It might be to bring peace in the Middle east. This False messiah has a following that gives him power in the world and it decieves.Peace and Godbless
S
Steven_John
Guest
This is supposed to be a bile translated from language without interpretation.
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Flame_of_Christ
Guest
Well I would have to agree with you that I am a sinner. I have sinned much and done many things against our Lord Jesus Christ. But with that said, so were Peter, Paul and John. We are all sinners. And yet, John was still able to proclaim that there is a spirit of anti-christ that we must be warned against. I hope that you understand this.
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Mosacked
Guest
I’m not even debating.
1 John 2:22 Who is the Liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Messiah. Such a man is the Antichrist—he denies the Father (God) and the Son (Jesus).
Stand on the other side and you’re with the Devil. Period.
You can stop calling yourself a Christian and wasting time telling people you believe in the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob. You’re just deceiving yourself and those around you.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
It has much to do with Muslims, who claim that Jesus is one of their prophets, and claim to belong to the same line of revelation as Christians and Jews. They claim that Abraham, Moses, Isaac, and many other accept patriarchs and prophets in Judaism and Christianity were Muslims.
Muslims therefore are a much more special case than other false beliefs such as Buddhism, Hinduism, etc, because religious such as Hindus do not claim to be in line with Christianity the way Muslims do. While Muslims are not a heresy within the Church, they are a heresy from without, such as the Gnostics, Manichaeans, and other early heresies. Islam therefore counts as much as a false teaching as those heresies do. As John spoke out against the Gnostics, so much we also speak out against all false beliefs. Muslims claim to believe in the same God we do - the beloved disciple would have much to say about that.
They follow a false version of Christ taught by a false prophet. That is why they are confused. Many are given the truth and simply refuse to believe it. I hate to say it, but many seem indoctrinated in what they have been taught, and like cult members fear being wrong more than blaspheming the true God.
Why not?
"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” [John 8:56; NKJV]
Yes, which is wrong. It is a false belief.
I would be careful arguing as such, because it is dangerously close to hyper-calvinism, which teaches that we should not evangelize in any way, because if God wants to save someone they’ll do it with no human aide whatsoever.
Of course, we are still commanded to be messengers. Acts 17 finds Paul speaking out to the pagans in Athens, trying to bring them to Christ. He didn’t just say, “Well, the Lord hasn’t chosen them, I guess,” but goes to plant the seed of faith, hoping that it might fall on good ground. In fact, something he says in his sermon to the Athenians is somewhat relevant to what we are discussing:
"Therefore, since we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, something shaped by art and man’s devising. Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent, because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” [Acts 17:29-31; NKJV]
I am Orthodox. Not to sound harsh, but…I don’t care what the pope says.
The Orthodox concept of Church Infallibility accepts that there are fallible leaders, including men like Nestorius who were high ranking church officials, or men like Arius who had the backing of high ranking church officials. Just because one church official said something means I have to accept it as canon.Yet Islam believed He did. Again, a false teaching that claims to be in line with Christians. Also, where in scripture did God give a covenant to Ishmael?
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Steven_John
Guest
Praise be to G-d your words show you as a humble honest man.
Humble men are like kids open to truth and can talk to sharpen each other.
I have listened to the words of your post and considered them for some hours.
Yes brother i do understand what you offer about Our Brothers warning us.
I dont see this shows they were warning specifically of Muslims.
If i made a score card against the scripture comparing Muslims to Pagans Muslims would come out on top.
Muslims say they see Yeshua (pbwh) as the messiah.
Pagans dont.
Muslims attribute is birth to G-d.
Pagans dont.
Muslims believe there is one G-d the god of Abraham (pbuh).
Pagans dont, some even invest time and effort promoting against Him.
We could look at abortion issues, pagans vs Muslims etc
I argue that the support of your argument does not stack up,
i dont offer your sensibility has no right to be offended when people hold different belief to you.
I dont know of your and your parishes relationship with your Muslim community i can only guess as Catholics it is very active and you personally serve Muslim people. I offer this especially as you offer you can recognise the gifts given you and that they are not for self edification but for His and ours, ours including Muslims.
The president of the Islamic society here loves Yeshua (pbwh) and is quick to pray with and help Christians, I dont see this as anti - Christ but pro Christ.
I respect you and your parish must be having a very different experience. I would be keener to hear of it than trying to state it with scripture that by its wording does not refute the wording of Islamic teaching. Yes the meaning of the words to you is different.
If you dont have real personal experience IMO (offered to you in humility i am not your guide) you may like to reconsider the threads support to be how you see the spirit inspires you. That may not be a bad thing some charismatic are gifted with prophecy. Or you see Islamic dogma as the anti christ because it does not recognise the trinity.
These later words as offered are my opinion, please dont just follow it or reject it, i urge you to pray about it.
G-d knows all things best, I pray He guide us, Christians, Muslims and Jews to patience and love for His glory.
T
TimeToGrow
Guest
Hello BW,
Thank you for the post I enjoyed reading it.
First, let me say that because I am Roman Catholic, I put all my weight and I try my best to follow the examples given by those who lead in our Church. I thank our Lord and God that he blesses us which such an insightful leader such as our Pope’s.
I believe that the apostles taught that we are to build on others faiths. To find that which is Good in man and build on it. It is apart of our evangelism. True we all need work. Stregthening that which is strong and protecting that which is weak. A good work and faith acknowledges Authority. Those that don’t respect it, will never truly have it. Leaders act with Authority at times because those that “say” they follow really don’t.
I can find many faults in Muslim beliefs as a RC and I can surely see a False Prophet among them. “If the Blind lead the Blind?” As it is written the Lord will have mercy on who the Lord will have mercy. God has also put it in the “world” that we will be without excuse not the scripture. There is enough in Life that will and can accuse the sinner.
Faith is the Gift of God and it is by measure as God has given. I ask what is Faith? It is the field upon which the seed is Planted.
So you ask where did God make a Covenant with Ishmael?
1 And God blessed Noe and his sons. And he said to them: Increase and multiply, and fill the earth. 2 And let the fear and dread of you be upon all the beasts of the earth, and upon all the fowls of the air, and all that move upon the earth: all the fishes of the sea are delivered into your hand. 3 And every thing that moveth and liveth shall be meat for you: even as the green herbs have I delivered them all to you: 4 Saving that flesh with blood you shall not eat. 5 For I will require the blood of your lives at the hand of every beast, and at the hand of man, at the hand of every man, and of his brother, will I require the life of man.
6 Whosoever shall shed man’s blood, his blood shall be shed: for man was made to the image of God. 7 But increase you and multiply, and go upon the earth, and fill it. 8 Thus also said God to Noe, and to his sons with him, 9 Behold I will establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you: 10 And with every living soul that is with you, as well in all birds as in cattle and beasts of the earth, that are come forth out of the ark, and in all the beasts of the earth.
11 I will establish my covenant with you, and all flesh shall be no more destroyed with the waters of a flood, neither shall there be from henceforth a flood to waste the earth. 12 And God said: This is the sign of the covenant which I give between me and you, and to every living soul that is with you, for perpetual generations. 13 I will set my bow in the clouds, and it shall be the sign of a covenant between me, and between the earth. 14 And when I shall cover the sky with clouds, my bow shall appear in the clouds: 15 And I will remember my covenant with you, and with every living soul that beareth flesh: and there shall no more be waters of a flood to destroy all flesh.
16 And the bow shall be in the clouds, and I shall see it, and shall remember the everlasting covenant, that was made between God and every living soul of all flesh which is upon the earth. 17 And God said to Noe: This shall be the sign of the covenant which I have established between me and all flesh upon the earth. 18 And the sons of Noe who came out of the ark, were Sem, Cham, and Japheth: and Cham is the father of Chanaan. 19 These three are the sons of Noe: and from these was all mankind spread over the whole earth. 20 And Noe, a husbandman, began to till the ground, and planted a vineyard.
Peace and Godbless
B
Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
We must be respectful and kind to unbelievers, that much is established in Christianity. However, being tolerant does not mean we have to agree. As Fulton Sheen once said, tolerance is for the erring, intolerance for the error.
Islam teaches a false belief that separates people from God. It separates them from Christ. That is the ultimate spirit of the antichrist. As followers of He who is Truth, we cannot accept lie.
…what does the covenant with Noah have to do with a covenant with Ishmael?
Again, where does God make a covenant with Ishmael.
T
TimeToGrow
Guest
Hello Bw,
I think your forgetting who does and did the excommunicating in history at times. Roman Catholics know how to defend their keep. You chose Muslim companion ship over the RCC. If you don’ like your new task masters that’s not our problem. Those that reject authority will never have it. How is the Whaling and the Lashing of teeth?
HistoricallyYou denied the divinity of CHrist our Lord in his Procession (filioque) and rejected it and now you sit here and call those anti-christ who say the same thing. Islamic beliefs at times aren’t much different than yours. You two are like a baptist and a Church of Christ.
God made a covenant with all men. And The Lord will judge all men as he say’s he will. God will be merciful on whom he chooses.
It doesn’t say he that denies YHWY has come in the Flesh, but he that denies Jesus Christ has come in the flesh. And I’m aware of many things Muslims say as I’m aware of what Orthodox and Protestants also say.
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choy
Guest
Elton John is the anti-christ…
content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2010/02/elton-johns-take-on-jesus-a-super-intelligent-gay-man/1
content.usatoday.com/communities/Religion/post/2010/02/elton-johns-take-on-jesus-a-super-intelligent-gay-man/1
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
I am officially flabbergasted. How did we jump ship from discussing the heresy of Islam to why Orthodox are self-condemned?
I hate to say this, but you simply show your ignorance on this subject, first by falling back on such an infantile debate tactic, and second by making such bold assertions as you did here. Denying the filioque denies the divinity of Christ? Those are two separate matters. Orthodox chose Muslim companionship over Catholic? I know plenty of Cypriot and Serbs who would like to personally contest you on that. Don’t like our “new task masters”? I didn’t realize that issue was even coming up!
Most of all, the beliefs of Islam and Orthodoxy “aren’t much different”? How much study have you done on Islam? You truly think that a Church which accepts the full divinity of Christ, the Trinity, the preservation of the Church and scripture has plenty in common with a religion that denies the divinity of Christ, calls the Trinity a damnable heresy, thinks that Christians worship the Virgin Mary, and that the Church became corrupt and the Bible can’t be trusted…you think these two groups of beliefs are similar?
I’m sorry, but in falling back on this weak and emotional red herring, you have shown you have no argument. Launching into a tirade about Orthodoxy does not answer the question of whether or not Islam is the spirit of the antichrist - in fact, it’s a borderline ad hominem.
Then you’re falling back on a looser covenant than what we are talking about. According to your argument, God has a covenant with everyone. That’s reasonable, but that’s not the topic at hand. Again, I asked where God made a covenant with Ishmael. Thus far, you have not shown anything relevant to that question.
Jesus Christ is God, and as such John protests any misunderstanding in Christ’s hypostatic union. He was not merely saying that you had to believe Christ existed, but that He had a humanity, which the Gnostics denied. Islam has a similar misunderstanding, only reversed - Christ had a humanity but not a divinity. St. John would still protest that idea, and I firmly believe he would agree with me that such a thought is the spirit of the antichrist.
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Flame_of_Christ
Guest
Thanks for understanding a little more of what my intention is. I do understand what you are saying about comparing pagans and muslims. My hole point though is that muslims have a relgion that claims that God has told them that Jesus is not the Son of God come to save us from Heaven. They claim that God has told this to the world. For me, that teaching did indeed come froma Spirit, but that Spirit was not God speaking.
do you understand that we Christians believe that Jesus died to save all people and that He is the Son of God? Jesus is Lord! I hope that you believe this truth.
peace in Christ
T
TimeToGrow
Guest
I’m not suprised,
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God doesn't make Looser covenants and God has before-ordained or set things as it pleases him. YOu just don't go back far enough for Ishamel. Was or was he not a descendant of Noah?
It's the whole Point. When people start picking and seeing what they want things to mean to them. The filioque said The Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son. This was debated as other things for centuries. The Procession. The RCC exualted Christ and many choked on it.
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Byzantine_Wolf
Guest
I asked for a covenant with Ishmael, and included in it the context of the covenant with Isaac. I quoted the passage from Genesis showing God’s covenant with Isaac, and asked you to do the same. You have not done so. Yes, Ishmael was a descendant of Noah, but as Noah and his family were the only humans left alive after the flood, so am I. So are you. So is everyone on this forum. That’s neither here nor there. Where is the specific covenant God made with Ishmael, which you claimed He did. If you cannot show me where God made a covenant with Ishmael, I can only conclude that you have no evidence for it.
Again, to fall back on the issue of Orthodoxy and things like the filioque is a non sequitor. I’m sorry. You’re showing you have no real argument.
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TimeToGrow
Guest
No you’re doing what everyone else does. You try to narrow everything to justify what you believe. You presume to know the extent of My understanding and you presume that I would have to post to your proof-texting… Yes, God made a Covenant with Ishmael long before he was born. And the Lord Blessed Ishmael… It may not be as Israel but it happened.
If peoples perception or knowledge of the Christ full divinity outside the church makes one anti-Christ?. Just how far does that go. What is Exommunication? How many evils have occurred in the country you or I live in that outside and act of just or unjust war has murdered so many. I can think of a lot more things that are anti-christ that have nothing to do with muslims. I can think of many things spoken By christ that are Evil that has nothing to do with theological doctrinal beliefs.
I suppose many think that some are in harms way. And I guess to a certain extent it can be true. But not much different than what others believe that is false and wrong. I don’t fear Muslim doctrine. That is why I’m Roman Catholic. It’s when you fear Rome that the Problems begin. Rome demands respect and humility and love not fear.
I don’t think many know how to interpret the Story of Noah.
How did all those unclean and clean animals get on that arc when no such animals had been labeled as such before the Lord commanded Israel not to eat of such things?
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