Who is the blessed man?

[myfavoritmartin]

First another question: Could you define what you mean by “justified” and by “faith”? Those terms could have quite different meanings depending on who’s using them.

If i died right now, I would appear to God as clothed in Christ’s righteousness, (my sins covered by Christ shed blood) they would not be counted against me.
Faith=Being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. (trust in the Lord)

 

[myfavoritmartin]

No, definitely not. Your sins don’t count because you’ve put your trust in God? What kind of lunacy is that?

It’s called Christ making atonement for our sins, by His work on the cross.

No, definitely not. Your sins don’t count because you’ve put your trust in God? What kind of lunacy is that?

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

 

[tomarin]

myfavoritmartin:

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

But you are also ignoring FightingFat’s lengthy Biblical presentation of the importance of baptism as an outward sign of God’s grace. You select a few verses that seem to make your point and ignore the rest.

It’s called Christ making atonement for our sins, by His work on the cross.

I’m pretty sure Catholics believe in Christ’s atoning sacrifice on the cross.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

But you are also ignoring FightingFat’s lengthy Biblical presentation of the importance of baptism as an outward sign of God’s grace. You select a few verses that seem to make your point and ignore the rest.

I simply asked if you were the blessed man of Romans 4.

tomarin:

I’m pretty sure Catholics believe in Christ’s atoning sacrifice on the cross.

Not complete, otherwise why purgatory?
Paul says our sins are not counted against us.

 

[tomarin]

I simply asked if you were the blessed man of Romans 4.

I guess the answer would be “no” because to be the blessed man you have to subscribe to your theology and I don’t.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I guess the answer would be “no” because to be the blessed man you have to subscribe to your theology and I don’t.

Step 2 Who is Paul saying that about then, based on your theology? when he says…
blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against them

 

[tomarin]

Step 2 Who is Paul saying that about then, based on your theology? when he says…
blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against them

I don’t know. I don’t know the answer to everything, like you do, Martin.

 

[davidv]

myfavoritmartin:

Not complete, otherwise why purgatory?
Paul says our sins are not counted against us.

Please explain how purgatory has anything to do with atonement.

I asked you before to stop using strawmen.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

I don’t know. I don’t know the answer to everything, like you do, Martin.

With full trust ON the Lord we can stand before the throne without fault, and are blameless and irreproveable in the sight of God.

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Please explain how purgatory has anything to do with atonement.

I asked you before to stop using strawmen.

I don’t even know what you mean by strawmen…
purgatory is said to abolish impurity of sin right? if we are already imputed with Christ righteousness why is there a need for purgatory?

 

[davidv]

I don’t even know what you mean by strawmen…
purgatory is said to abolish impurity of sin right? if we are already imputed with Christ righteousness why is there a need for purgatory?

A strawman is when you describe something incorrectly so you can argue against it, pretending that you have defeated the real thing.

I have no idea where got the word abolish from. Here is some of the actual Church teaching on the topic. Note that there is no mention of attonement.

1030 All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name *Purgatory *to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

“All who die in God’s grace and friendship” have been attoned, yet may still be imperfect.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

With full trust ON the Lord we can stand before the throne without fault, and are blameless and irreproveable in the sight of God.

Why do you say ‘on’ the Lord instead of "IN’ the Lord? Is it some regional or dialectical thing?

I keep picturing a whole bunch of people dogpiled on the Lord. . .

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Why do you say ‘on’ the Lord instead of "IN’ the Lord? Is it some regional or dialectical thing?

I keep picturing a whole bunch of people dogpiled on the Lord. . .

Simple even demons believe IN… AsPaul preached…

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue,** believed on the Lord** with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Acts 16:31 And they said,** Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ**, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they **commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. **
Acts 11:17
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, **who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; **what was I, that I could withstand God?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

“All who die in God’s grace and friendship” have been attoned, yet may still be imperfect.

If you have no sins imputed on you that is perfect atonement, Christ work was perfect and complete. So if our sins are not counted against us how are we imperfect?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

What Bible translation do you use? My Douay Rheims has ‘in the Lord’, not ‘on’.

 

[davidv]

Simple even demons believe IN… AsPaul preached…

Acts 18:8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue,** believed on the Lord** with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

Acts 16:31 And they said,** Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ**, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Acts 14:23 And when they had ordained them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they **commended them to the Lord, on whom they believed. **
Acts 11:17
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, **who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; **what was I, that I could withstand God?

What translation are you using? The RSV reads “in” rather that “on” in all of the verses you quoted.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, and when I did a Google search for “Trust on the Lord” everything that came up actually said "trust “IN” the Lord’.

And with martin’s explanations of how the demons believe ‘in’ and his versions with ‘on’ instead make it look as though a version which said ‘in’ would somehow be affiliated with demons. . .

 

[danto]

Romans 4:8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record”
Psalm 32:2 “Happy those to whom the LORD imputes no guilt, in whose spirit is no deceit”

Could this blessed man be someone who is granted the gift of final perseverance? i.e. they will persevere unto death. For example by God removing temptations from the blessed man that he sees will be fatal.

It does not say all believers are granted this special blessing.

myfavoritmartin: Are you implying this passage applies to ALL who “believe on the Lord”? If so, what in the text gives this implication to you?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Romans 4:8 “Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord does not record”
Psalm 32:2 “Happy those to whom the LORD imputes no guilt, in whose spirit is no deceit”

Could this blessed man be someone who is granted the gift of final perseverance? i.e. they will persevere unto death. For example by God removing temptations from the blessed man that he sees will be fatal.

It does not say all believers are granted this special blessing.

myfavoritmartin: Are you implying this passage applies to ALL who “believe on the Lord”? If so, what in the text gives this implication to you?

I believe it applies to all regenerate Christians. The point being made here is that justification is by faith alone, as it was for Abraham and David (apart from works) even done in hloiness of heart… The blessing spoken of is SALVATION.
Is Christ’s work insufficient?
Have you personally trusted in Christ’s work? completely? like the theif on the cross?

 

[myfavoritmartin]

Sinners cast yourselves on God’s mercy, don’t count on only sacraments…Count on the real deal…

On the cross He said tetelestai!