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davidv
Guest
Why do you presume otherwise?
What makes you think Catholic teaching doesn’t require this?
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What makes you think Catholic teaching doesn’t require this?
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
Canon 6 i think of Trent says if you believe you are justified by faith alone you are anathema.
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davidv
Guest
And the Book of James states that faith alone is dead. Sounds consistent to me.
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myfavoritmartin
Guest
So we’re to use your interpretation of James against the Psalm and Roman views?
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davidv
Guest
No. The authentic interpreter’s interpretation. This is neither you nor I.
J
JM3
Guest
americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/TRENT/trent6.htm
Canon 9.
If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone,[114] meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification, and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema.
John 14:23 (KJV)
Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
Philippians 2:12 (KJV)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
There is more to faith than knowledge.
J
JM3
Guest
americancatholictruthsociety.com/docs/TRENT/trent6.htm
CHAPTER III
WHO ARE JUSTIFIED THROUGH CHRIST
But though He died for all,[16] yet all do not receive the benefit of His death, but those only to whom the merit of His passion is communicated; because as truly as men would not be born unjust, if they were not born through propagation of the seed of Adam, since by that propagation they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own, so if they were not born again in Christ, they would never be justified, since in that new birth there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace by which they are made just.
For this benefit the Apostle exhorts us always to give thanks to the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light, and hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption and remission of sins.[17]
CHAPTER VII
IN WHAT THE JUSTIFICATION OF THE SINNER CONSISTS, AND WHAT ARE ITS CAUSES
This disposition or preparation is followed by justification itself, which is not only a remission of sins but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man through the voluntary reception of the grace and gifts whereby an unjust man becomes just and from being an enemy becomes a friend, that he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.[30]
The causes of this justification are:
the final cause is the glory of God and of Christ and life everlasting; the efficient cause is the merciful God who washes and sanctifies[31] gratuitously, signing and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance,[32] the meritorious cause is His most beloved only begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies,[33] for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us,[34] merited for us justification by His most holy passion on the wood of the cross and made satisfaction for us to God the Father, the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith,[35] without which no man was ever justified finally, the single formal cause is the justice of God, not that by which He Himself is just, but that by which He makes us just, that, namely, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind,[36] and not only are we reputed but we are truly called and are just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to everyone as He wills,[37] and according to each one’s disposition and cooperation.
For though no one can be just except he to whom the merits of the passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet this takes place in that justification of the sinner, when by the merit of the most holy passion, the charity of God is poured forth by the Holy Ghost in the hearts[38] of those who are justified and inheres in them; whence man through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives in that justification, together with the remission of sins, all these infused at the same time, namely, faith, hope and charity.
For faith, unless hope and charity be added to it, neither unites man perfectly with Christ nor makes him a living member of His body.[39]
For which reason it is most truly said that faith without works is dead[40] and of no profit, and in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything nor uncircumcision, but faith that worketh by charity.[41]
This faith, conformably to Apostolic tradition, catechumens ask of the Church before the sacrament of baptism, when they ask for the faith that gives eternal life, which without hope and charity faith cannot give.
Whence also they hear immediately the word of Christ:
If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.[42]
Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are commanded, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe[43] given them through Christ Jesus in place of that which Adam by his disobedience lost for himself and for us, so that they may bear it before the tribunal of our Lord Jesus Christ and may have life eternal.
CHAPTER IX
AGAINST THE VAIN CONFIDENCE OF HERETICS
But though it is necessary to believe that sins neither are remitted nor ever have been remitted except gratuitously by divine mercy for Christ’s sake, yet it must not be said that sins are forgiven or have been forgiven to anyone who boasts of his confidence and certainty of the remission of his sins,[47] resting on that alone, though among heretics and schismatics this vain and ungodly confidence may be and in our troubled times indeed is found and preached with untiring fury against the Catholic Church.
Moreover, it must not be maintained, that they who are truly justified must needs, without any doubt whatever, convince themselves that they are justified, and that no one is absolved from sins and justified except he that believes with certainty that he is absolved and justified,[48] and that absolution and justification are effected by this faith alone, as if he who does not believe this, doubts the promises of God and the efficacy of the death and resurrection of Christ.
For as no pious person ought to doubt the mercy of God, the merit of Christ and the virtue and efficacy of the sacraments, so each one, when he considers himself and his own weakness and indisposition, may have fear and apprehension concerning his own grace, since no one can know with the certainty of faith, which cannot be subject to error, that he has obtained the grace of God.
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shino
Guest
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Debt Relief Order
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danto
Guest
Seems to me the point being made in this section of Romans 4 is that faith apart from works of the Mosaic Law is credited, therefore both Jews and gentiles faith is equally valid. Case in point Abraham and psalm 32 God credits contrite sinner.
Keep reading and you’ll see baptism saves, work out your salvation, those who persevere to the end are saved, reconciliation with God saves (prodigal son), and many more.
Isn’t it more logical to understand the word of God in terms of “both and” principle as oppposed to “either or” (meaning mental gymnastics on the verses contrary to your tradition of sola fide)?
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david_friol_1
Guest
there are two ways being spoken of here that a person becomes justified. One is Abraham by faith and the other is David when he repented of his sin and God forgave him he became justified again. And I say again because of the nature of the sin David committed.
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Lampo
Guest
“See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” - James 2:24
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ryanoneil
Guest
Yes. Faith, not cirucumcision or observance of the Mosaic Law, makes us children of Abraham.
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ryanoneil
Guest
There is no real discrepancy between Paul and James on the matter of faith and works. When Paul speaks of justifying faith, he is talking about the faith of the convert that leads to baptism. God makes the believer righteous by an infusion of Spirit and life. Apart from this divine action in the believer, human works (especially works of the Mosaic Law which Paul is very specifically talking about) are simply unable to merit the grace of this first justification in Christ. It is a free gift of grace. So Paul is making a general statement about how we are brought from sin to salvation. Faith leads the believer to baptism, which Paul teaches is the sacrament of our justification.
James is dealing with a different situation. He is not talking about the convert, but is talking about the professing Christian who already holds the faith. In otherwords, Paul is talking before the believer is incorporated into Christ and James is talking about after. When James affirms works he is not talking about works of the Mosaic Law performed apart from grace. He is talking about works of mercy (good works) performed by those who are already established in grace. So James is discussing the ongoing justification of believers. Good works are made possible by the grace of God, and they contribute to an increase in righteousness and justification. This teaching of James is in full harmony with the teaching of Paul
**For it is not those who hear the law who are just in the sight of God; rather, those who observe the law will be justified. (Rom 2:13)
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? Of course not! Do you not know that if you present yourselves to someone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? (Rom 6:15-16)**
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Church_Militant
Guest
Exactly!
The Catholic Church has never ever even hinted that all our salvation is not centered on the sacrificial propitiation of Our Lord Jesus Christ. To try to infer that is specious at best and MfM’s opening premise is simply answered by saying that, as Catholics, we are all that blessed man because we share in that redemption that we could never have done for ourselves, by which God forgives us and grants us the grace to come to Him and live our lives of obedient service to Him.
On a side note: Am I the only one who feels that MfM plays “word” (as in Word of God") games in this lat couple of threads? It just feels like he’s being (as my Irish Catholic ancestors would say) “too cute by half” in that it seems like he hoped to trip some folks up in order to try to make a case for us to leave our most holy faith.
I did see where he had a post telling people not to trust in the sacraments which I thought was both sad and offensive since it was Our Lord Himself who established the sacraments we have. I have some difficulty understanding how honest people, who are supposedly thoroughly familiar with the Bible can be so selective in support of their doctrines. Even when I was away from the Church and in other faith communities, I was never like that…
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