Who is the creature to judge the Creator?

[donsnow]

Well, that doesn’t sound to smudge to me. I guess when you are as pathetic as me then the Lord feels a need to directly intervene.

Reading your earlier post. I agree with your view point on God does judge nations. I remember when the hurricane Katrina hit New Orleans (I work off shore in the Gulf of Mexico) and the Protestants started coming on television and saying that it was a punishment directly from God. Well, I don’t know if you know much about Southern Louisiana but there are a whole lot of Catholics and they(Catholics) immediately gave the Protestants(T.V. Evangelist) a lot of slack and said that it was an opportunity to help others.

I agree that it was a good opportunity to help other but I also believe that it is judgement from God. How else would you explain the Catholic main cathedral down town not getting flooded(I believe that is what I heard on the news–although you might want to check). I think that a lot of Catholics do not think that God is capable of punishing people. They seems to go to the extreme other direction of God being love. Some people just can not except punishment as being part of a loving-holy type of correction for the benefit of the one being punishment rather country or individuals.

Hi -

I checked my CCC and it has no listing for chastisement nor chastise. However, it did have a entry for punishment (2265 -2267). It was in the context of Capital Punishment, Fifth Commandment and Abortion. The entry under Judgment has only human rash judgment 2477. But, so far as I can find, there are no entries about what we’re discussing.

Actually, since all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God, we deserve a lot worse than has happened in the way of national chastisement. As a prior Marine I’m familiar with the whole unit being punished for the misbehavior of a few. One man goofing up in combat, can get a whole squad (or more) killed. Thank God, I was spared combat and the 'Corps kept me stateside. But, the sinful can get a whole nation chastised. And, it is just. Because we all have sinned. I think Revelation prophecies much chastisement ahead.

 

[AntiTheist]

I don’t think that your god exists, but I have no problem judging the character as he appears in books. After all, a child is more than capable of judging a parent and determining whether the parent is fit or not (deserving of respect or not); I see no reason why creatures shouldn’t be able to judge a hypothetical creator.

The god presented in the Bible is a tyrannical monster, one who values things that are horrific: blood sacrifice, vicarious atonement, punishing descendants of criminals for crimes, and assigning eternal punishment for thought crimes.

This entity, according to the story, punished not only Adam and Eve for disobeying him, but all of their descendants (original sin) – a horrible and unjust decision; instead of simply forgiving them, this god character decides that the best way to undo this sin is to incarnate himself so as to engage in a horrendous bloody sacrifice so that one person can remove responsibility from all other people for their offenses – horrible and unjust. Finally, this god character will send people to an eternal torment for the crime of not loving him, for committing what is in essence a thought crime – horrible and unjust.

If any human being acted like this, he would be considered the worst person on the face of the planet.

Right now, let me say that aetheists and skeptics nor gays nor casual abortion is not the only things that displeases God about our society. People wife swapping, or cheating their employees, or employees cheating their employers, etc are all things which I believe God disapproves of and that make Him unhappy.

And there’s another thing – this god sure is interested in what people do in the bedroom and what people privately think.

Even if this god existed, I wouldn’t worship him or conclude that he is worthy of respect in any way.

 

[Mike_Dye]

I don’t think that your god exists, but I have no problem judging the character as he appears in books. After all, a child is more than capable of judging a parent and determining whether the parent is fit or not (deserving of respect or not); I see no reason why creatures shouldn’t be able to judge a hypothetical creator.

The god presented in the Bible is a tyrannical monster, one who values things that are horrific: blood sacrifice, vicarious atonement, punishing descendants of criminals for crimes, and assigning eternal punishment for thought crimes.

This entity, according to the story, punished not only Adam and Eve for disobeying him, but all of their descendants (original sin) – a horrible and unjust decision; instead of simply forgiving them, this god character decides that the best way to undo this sin is to incarnate himself so as to engage in a horrendous bloody sacrifice so that one person can remove responsibility from all other people for their offenses – horrible and unjust. Finally, this god character will send people to an eternal torment for the crime of not loving him, for committing what is in essence a thought crime – horrible and unjust.

If any human being acted like this, he would be considered the worst person on the face of the planet.

And there’s another thing – this god sure is interested in what people do in the bedroom and what people privately think.

Even if this god existed, I wouldn’t worship him or conclude that he is worthy of respect in any way.

AntiTheist wrote:
And there’s another thing – this god sure is interested in what people do in the bedroom and what people privately think.
Reply:
I have always believed if you let a person talk long enough you will eventually get to what they are about. I believe that you have reached that point. You want a God that hands out candy anytime you want it but will not accept a God that will not let you do anything you want at anytime you want. I understand why you reject Him, Trust me in this society you are not alone.

 

[donsnow]

Good morning, all -

Been up awhile and on other threads.
Let me break for breakfast, so I can reread AntiTheist’s post on a full stomach.
I wonder if he’s going to come back and read any of our posts?

 

[donsnow]

Good morning, AntiTheist -

Maybe the middle of this night, you’ll return and read our posts.

Now, tell me, does the OP of this thread sting you?

Because your post reads like the bawling of a toddler, who’s been smacked on the butt, through the thick diapers, there. It has much emotion. Does it have reason? We on this thread approach the OP with both minds and emotions. Can we be such Ogres, then, to believe in, worship…even love, such a God? Are we so evil, then; and you so good? Let me see.

I don’t think that your god exists, but I have no problem judging the character as he appears in books. After all, a child is more than capable of judging a parent and determining whether the parent is fit or not (deserving of respect or not); I see no reason why creatures shouldn’t be able to judge a hypothetical creator.

Should not your judgmental child view his parents in the light of the Fourth Commandment, “Honor your mother and father, that the days of your life may be long…”?
What age of childhood, does the child become capable of determining whether the parent is fit, or not? With these questions in mind, then answer the OP, “Who is the creature to judge it’s Creator?”

The god presented in the Bible is a tyrannical monster,…

He isn’t a tyrant, tyrants don’t allow the rights and freedoms with which our Creator endows both us and you. How is he a monster? By what standard do you determine that? The human race? With our quota of tyrants and monsters? Those are the humans who have turned away from allowing others the same rights and liberties, with which our Creator has endowed both them and us.

… one who values things that are horrific: blood sacrifice, vicarious atonement, punishing descendants of criminals for crimes, and assigning eternal punishment for thought crimes.

.
I think not. He values truth, love, faith, life, hope and Divine justice. The people who reject these His values, get what they give; and they are the ones, who rejecting these good values, become tyrants and monsters, not Him.

This entity, according to the story, punished not only Adam and Eve for disobeying him, but all of their descendants (original sin) – a horrible and unjust decision; instead of simply forgiving them,…

Not so, and you left out another character of this story; a character who judges God like you talk about Him. The character who called Adam and Eve and its Creator a liar, by contradicting His warning that they would surely die when it said, “Thou shalt not surely die.” Right then, from his place right beside Eve, Adam should have stepped forward and exclaimed, “Our God is not a liar! You lie! Out of this Garden, you vile thing!”
But, he didn’t. He just stood there and let the Serpent tempt Eve and then let Eve tempt him. Now, wouldn’t you be p.o’d if a creature of yours so listened to a liar about you? Hey, God was just: first, he chewed out Adam, then Eve, then Satan; they were all in it together. He didn’t punish all their descendents: he stated the consequences of following Satan, instead of following him. There’s a difference. He had warned them, they would surely die; does it not follow, when the parents fall from immortality to mortality that then their children also will die? Their parents’ mortality denying the children immortality? heh?

Continued in following post.

 

[donsnow]

Concluded from post #25

You claim -

…this god character decides that the best way to undo this sin is to incarnate himself so as to engage in a horrendous bloody sacrifice so that one person can remove responsibility from all other people for their offenses – horrible and unjust.

Allow me to rebutt that: This God told Noah after he left the Ark, “Who sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed.” The curse.
Now, that God had just finished shedding the blood of an entire human race and animals on Earth. But, this is an intangible spirit. Shouldn’t He suffer the consequences of His actions and Word? Yes. How? (This next is the way it looks to my understanding, but may not be Church teaching) The blood of the son is the blood of the father. Christ had to become incarnate and shed his blood to redeem not only us but also (God have mercy on me a sinner), to redeem the Father of all.

Finally, this god character will send people to an eternal torment for the crime of not loving him, for committing what is in essence a thought crime – horrible and unjust.

First, He does not send the people…they run away from Him and become led by His and humankind’s Adversary, Lucifer…however, the lake of fire was originally and still is reserved for Lucifer and his angels. The only way people get there is by clinging to Satan; just like the only way people get to heaven is by clinging to Jesus Christ.
Not loving is a sin, not a crime. With crimes, we get lawyers in human courts. With sin, we get consequences of life and death, out of human courts. In a sense, we judge ourselves by what we think: our own thoughts judge us. He reads our hearts and the thoughts in them.
Angels, not people, are the creatures who do what they are programmed to do, and cannot change a decision which they make. That’s why the angels who decide to rebel against their Creator are cast into the lake of fire: they can’t repent.
But, people who go awry can repent, turn back to Jesus Christ who showed the love of God, and run away from Satan whose end is known.

If any human being acted like this, he would be considered the worst person on the face of the planet.

Jesus Christ acted like that, and even non-Christians recognize his goodness. So, there’s a human.

And there’s another thing – this god sure is interested in what people do in the bedroom and what people privately think.

Yes, and with good reason. When humans mate, they become one flesh. I’m glad our Creator is right picky about his creatures not becoming a lump of many lovers in one flesh.
I’m glad our Creator is concerned with our thoughts…that is where we are supposed to be like Him. When we’re not, that’s not His fault, that’s our fault.

Since you are judged as you judge, then it is right and meet that our Creator nor anybody else worship nor respect you.
None of us are worthy of worship and our Creator is no respecter of persons. So, there.

In closing, AntiTheist, you, like everybody else, are a sinner in the eyes of this God which you claim to so despise. I’m a sinner. Everybody on this thread is a sinner. Everybody in CAF is a sinner. Everybody on earth is a sinner. You’re a sinner. You’re no different than any other sinner. Now, there’s two things a sinner can do, since we aren’t angels. We can be like the disobediant angels, throw away our freedom of choice and refuse to repent. Or, we can recognise our human nature, exercise our freedom of choice and repent.
I hope and pray that my rebuttals to your toddler reasoning prompts you to repent, run away from Satan and his end; and turn to Jesus Christ, who has much good and wants to heal you and give you his Divine love

Now I have shown you the Majesty, Glory and Wisdom of our Heavenly Father, His son come in the flesh Jesus the Christ and their Holy Spirit. Blessed be God Most High, the Holy Trinity.

[/QUOTE]

 

[AntiTheist]

You want a God that hands out candy anytime you want it but will not accept a God that will not let you do anything you want at anytime you want.

No. I don’t particularly want a god at all. That’s why I’m thrilled that there is no evidence that any gods exist.

donsnow:

Now, tell me, does the OP of this thread sting you?

No. The OP is largely incomprehensible. The thread title, however, reminds me that I often judge the god character in your myth, so I thought I’d share with you my opinions of the character.

Furthermore, I consider this “creatures can’t judge the creator” stuff to be dangerous nonsense. Creators – like parents – have responsibilities towards their creation and must be held accountable.

Should not your judgmental child view his parents in the light of the Fourth Commandment, “Honor your mother and father, that the days of your life may be long…”?
What age of childhood, does the child become capable of determining whether the parent is fit, or not? With these questions in mind, then answer the OP, “Who is the creature to judge it’s Creator?”

Well, that’s just the thing. Do children have any rights at all? You notice that there’s nothing in your “10 Commandments” about not abusing children. The barbaric view of the Bible is that children are the property of parents, just like human beings are the property of a monstrous deity.

My values lead me to the conclusion that love and respect are things that parents have to earn. Abusive parents are not worthy of respect, and abusive and tyrannical rulers are not worthy of respect.

How is he a monster? By what standard do you determine that?

By the standards of my values, the same standards I use to judge anyone.

To reiterate one example, your god chose to absolve the sins of humanity by means of a blood sacrifice. How horrific. It even says in genesis that this god finds the smell of blood appealing. My values lead me to judge that choice – that preference for blood sacrifice – as monstrous. He could have chosen anything. He could have just forgiven everybody. He could have incarnated as a human and helped mankind perform some noble feat that would have absolved them of their sins. Instead he chose a blood sacrifice. What twisted and disgusting values must motivate this monster.

Furthermore, the idea of punishing the descendants of an individual for that individual’s offenses is fundamentally unfair. The idea of vicarious atonement – that one individual can atone for the offenses of all of humanity – is also unfair and unjust; it’s scapegoating of the absolute worst kind.

As I said, I’m glad that there’s not a shred of evidence that this god exists. And even if he did exist, you can keep him.

 

[po18guy]

That is to say, those who judge or deny God could be endangering all of us. God is love, Don

The first created being to judge God was Lucifer, who made his judgment by denying obedience to his Creator. Being a rejection of God, Who is the source of love, and of all that is good, this genesis of evil also hates all of creation, which was seen by God as either “good” or “very good”. This constitutes rejection of the Creator.

 

[po18guy]

No. I don’t particularly want a god at all. That’s why I’m thrilled that there is no evidence that any gods exist.

YOU are proof that God exists. Who gave you life, then? If not God, then your life is a mere accident and has no value. If it has no value, why should it not be snuffed out in order to save the earth? But, that leads to: where did earth come from? Another accident? Well, then, it should be snuffed out as it endangers the galaxy. Where does this logic stop?

Well, that’s just the thing. Do children have any rights at all? You notice that there’s nothing in your “10 Commandments” about not abusing children. The barbaric view of the Bible is that children are the property of parents, just like human beings are the property of a monstrous deity.

The godless agree that it is OK to both kill children, to prevent their existence, as well as to enslave and abuse them. Secular fundamentalist Professor Peter Singer believes that you should have the right to kill your chuld for up to 30 days after birth, if you decide they are not to your taste. And you blame God for such? Illogical.

 

[donsnow]

No. I don’t particularly want a god at all. That’s why I’m thrilled that there is no evidence that any gods exist.

donsnow: No. The OP is largely incomprehensible. The thread title, however, reminds me that I often judge the god character in your myth, so I thought I’d share with you my opinions of the character.

Furthermore, I consider this “creatures can’t judge the creator” stuff to be dangerous nonsense. Creators – like parents – have responsibilities towards their creation and must be held accountable.

Well, that’s just the thing. Do children have any rights at all? You notice that there’s nothing in your “10 Commandments” about not abusing children. The barbaric view of the Bible is that children are the property of parents, just like human beings are the property of a monstrous deity.

My values lead me to the conclusion that love and respect are things that parents have to earn. Abusive parents are not worthy of respect, and abusive and tyrannical rulers are not worthy of respect.

By the standards of my values, the same standards I use to judge anyone.

To reiterate one example, your god chose to absolve the sins of humanity by means of a blood sacrifice. How horrific. It even says in genesis that this god finds the smell of blood appealing. My values lead me to judge that choice – that preference for blood sacrifice – as monstrous. He could have chosen anything. He could have just forgiven everybody. He could have incarnated as a human and helped mankind perform some noble feat that would have absolved them of their sins. Instead he chose a blood sacrifice. What twisted and disgusting values must motivate this monster.

Furthermore, the idea of punishing the descendants of an individual for that individual’s offenses is fundamentally unfair. The idea of vicarious atonement – that one individual can atone for the offenses of all of humanity – is also unfair and unjust; it’s scapegoating of the absolute worst kind.

As I said, I’m glad that there’s not a shred of evidence that this god exists. And even if he did exist, you can keep him.

Hi, AntiTheist -

Look, since you say God doesn’t exist, but you’d like to judge the character…I say you’re trying to have your cake and eat it too.

You’ve tried to get a rise out of me twice. I am proof that God exists and that He is love.
I have not and will not condemn you, because my God does not condemn people nor upbraid them. But, He gives us a choice to condemn ourselves or follow Him. I’ve made my choice.

You claim there’s no God, but like to bash HIm. Make up your mind. If you think there’s no God, we have so little to discuss. If all you want to do is bash Him, there’s nothing to discuss. My God is not a punching bag for you to take out your issues on Him. I have defended my faith in Him. I have pointed out my opinion of your bashing a God who you claim does not exist: I think you believe in Him but you won’t admit it.

We all become property. Our only choice is whose property to be: government of people, God’s or Satan’s. That’s all there is. You might think you can own yourself. Someday, you may see differently as you seem intelligent and disillusioned with God. Try not to blame God for what people and Satan do. We are responsible for the choices we make. Choose carefully. Don’t say you haven’t been informed.

 

[po18guy]

You claim there’s no God, but like to bash HIm. Make up your mind.

Unlike our counterpoint, I do not have sufficient faith to be an atheist. I cannot develop the absolute, unshakable faith that there is no god. I just can’t bring myself to believe anything that strongly. My faith is fallible and is shaken at times, weak at times and unsure at times. No, sir, I do not have the faith to be an atheist. Their faith is a model for us all, and based on a 100% certainty that something does not exist. Now, that is true faith.

 

[catholicsuffer]

No. I don’t particularly want a god at all. That’s why I’m thrilled that there is no evidence that any gods exist.

donsnow: No. The OP is largely incomprehensible. The thread title, however, reminds me that I often judge the god character in your myth, so I thought I’d share with you my opinions of the character.

Furthermore, I consider this “creatures can’t judge the creator” stuff to be dangerous nonsense. Creators – like parents – have responsibilities towards their creation and must be held accountable.

Well, that’s just the thing. Do children have any rights at all? You notice that there’s nothing in your “10 Commandments” about not abusing children. The barbaric view of the Bible is that children are the property of parents, just like human beings are the property of a monstrous deity.

My values lead me to the conclusion that love and respect are things that parents have to earn. Abusive parents are not worthy of respect, and abusive and tyrannical rulers are not worthy of respect.

By the standards of my values, the same standards I use to judge anyone.

To reiterate one example, your god chose to absolve the sins of humanity by means of a blood sacrifice. How horrific. It even says in genesis that this god finds the smell of blood appealing. My values lead me to judge that choice – that preference for blood sacrifice – as monstrous. He could have chosen anything. He could have just forgiven everybody. He could have incarnated as a human and helped mankind perform some noble feat that would have absolved them of their sins. Instead he chose a blood sacrifice. What twisted and disgusting values must motivate this monster.

Furthermore, the idea of punishing the descendants of an individual for that individual’s offenses is fundamentally unfair. The idea of vicarious atonement – that one individual can atone for the offenses of all of humanity – is also unfair and unjust; it’s scapegoating of the absolute worst kind.

As I said, I’m glad that there’s not a shred of evidence that this god exists. And even if he did exist, you can keep him.

Hello,
I like to share something with you; this was posted on another thread by me but I wanted to share it with you:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=368967&highlight=CATHOLICSUFFER&page=11

Thank you for your reply. I am not a Catholic but certainly see her as the Kingdom of God, unlike the invisible Kingdom of God that I was taught as a Protestant. I love studying different things in the bible and always look to the Catholic Church as the final authority on matters, most specially if the answers are by the Saints or Early Church Fathers. I can always count on the Catholic teachings for my studying and to know a little about what some of my visions or experiences are about. I do not have a lot to offer in return being most of my life has been wasted on alcohol–which I feel strongly is no more-- so I like to instead tell you one such experience which I had some years back, I know this is going to make me sound a little crazy but it happen just like this:
I was at a bar in Harvey, La drinking after work–at the time I was a hopper(the fellow you see running behind the garbage truck) and this was the hang-out that a couple of us went to because the picture beer was cheap. Any ways, I was talking and telling someone about an experience I had right after I read about a Saint that had the same experience during his life time. This guy approach me and ask what it was like, as I told him we were both in front of this great light(obviously-God) and I was tremble ling just as I was during the vision and just as the Saint describe his vision like he was going to shake into a million pieces and the fellow said to me that is the reason that I turn against him(meaning because of his power).

Thanks for the lesson on Adam and Eve. Hope the Good Lord Jesus grant you a similar experience."

Of course, in order to believe this it would take the Gift of the Holy Spirit to reveal it to you and I truly hope that he does but if you ever read the story about the Prophet Balaam you would know God revealing something to you is not always to your best benefit.

You can find the story here: newmanreader.org/controversies/guides/best.html

 

[catholicsuffer]

AntiTheist,

Sorry, I just reread my cut and paste and relieved that I never mention who that fellow was. It was someone that you would probablely get along very well with and would even be proud to call him Father. I must admit, he seem like a very nice young fellow. Believe this! It was SATAN.

 

[Leela]

Unlike our counterpoint, I do not have sufficient faith to be an atheist. I cannot develop the absolute, unshakable faith that there is no god. I just can’t bring myself to believe anything that strongly. My faith is fallible and is shaken at times, weak at times and unsure at times. No, sir, I do not have the faith to be an atheist. Their faith is a model for us all, and based on a 100% certainty that something does not exist. Now, that is true faith.

You have the wrong idea about atheism. It takes no faith to be unconvinced by the evidence for the truth of any particular religion. It doesn’t mean that a nonbeliever is 100% sure that God does not exist, it just means that one is either not very interested in the question or assigns some probability less than 50% to the existence of God.

How certain are you that God exists? You seem to think that certainty is what faith is about. I would think it has more to do with entering into a relationship with God rather than believing in God. It is my understanding of the gospels that God wants to be loved rather than believed in. How does one love God? The gospels answer this question clearly and it has nothing to do with trying to raise the percentage of certainty you can ascribe to God’s existence.

How do we love God? By loving our neighbors as ourselves. The goats and sheep will be separated not based on the percent of certainty that we can ascribe to the existence of God, but based on how well we took care of one another. See Matthew 25:31. Matthew again contradicts the fundamentalist interpretation of John’s Gospel when he quotes Jesus as saying, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” So by this interpretation of Christian theology, belief is not a sufficient nor even a necessary condition for salvation. It would rather seem to take faith, and it would also seem that someone can love God (by loving her neighbors) without believing in God.

Belief is out of our control anyway. Perhaps it is best for you to think of me as like Paul before being struck on the road to Damascus (without the history of persecuting Christians!) or a doubting Thomas for whom Jesus has not yet made himself known. I can’t make myself feel that I have done anything wrong in being unconvinced by the evidence and arguments for any particular religion as you seem to think of atheists. I don’t have the power to force myself to believe what I don’t already believe. As far as I can tell, no one has such an ability to will themselves into believing something.

Lack of belief can be viewed by a Christian as unfortunate but not as a personal moral failure since it is not in our control. If there is a God, the gift of belief is in God’s hands alone. As a believer, you must believe that God has a purpose for even me who does not believe, because God knows exactly what sort of evidence would convince me, yet has chosen in his wisdom not to provide it.

Best,
Leela

 

[po18guy]

You have the wrong idea about atheism. It takes no faith to be unconvinced by the evidence for the truth of any particular religion

“The God Delusion” sounds pretty well convinced of the non-existence of a supreme being - at least to me. And, since there is an entire spectrum of non-believers, I speak for the most egregiously oblivious, whose thought processes are not substantially different from holocaust deniers, in my analysis.

How certain are you that God exists? You seem to think that certainty is what faith is about. I would think it has more to do with entering into a relationship with God rather than believing in God. It is my understanding of the gospels that God wants to be loved rather than believed in.

Quite convinced, by the evidence that has been presented and revealed to me. If I had no certainty of the existence of that which I profess to love, would I not be a fool? This would indeed be a delusion, no? The love and belief cannot be separated. Belief can be a stepping stone to love, or vice versa. Each heart walks a different path in such matters.

How do we love God? By loving our neighbors as ourselves.

The same way we love anything - by conscious decision. How one arrives at that point is a different journey for each person, as we all have differing hearts

The goats and sheep will be separated…but based on how well we took care of one another. Matthew again contradicts the fundamentalist interpretation of John’s Gospel when he quotes Jesus as saying, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” So by this interpretation of Christian theology, belief is not a sufficient nor even a necessary condition for salvation.

You are quite right as to fundamentalist theology. Many destructive heresies have arisen. Many “Christian” sects have broken away from revealed truth and have re-interpreted God’s word to mean something different: grossly simplified, more modern, more palatable to the human heart. If you believe in fallen human nature, and evidence/proof surrounds us, does not the human heart seek an easy path toward satisfaction, toward peace, toward a belief system that is comforting? But, Jesus revealed that the path is difficult and narrow and few find it.

It would rather seem to take faith, and it would also seem that someone can love God (by loving her neighbors) without believing in God.

No matter your physical actions, or the underlying motivation for them, how can you love or serve something in which you do not believe? This is a dichotomy. Since God is the source of all love, nothing can be done apart from His love. Oh, love may be present, but it is a stunted and incomplete love, as its depth stops short of its source. Love’s source is clearly not the human heart, although the heart is made for love.

Belief is out of our control anyway.

Only as long as you believe it is.

Perhaps it is best for you to think of me as… doubting Thomas for whom Jesus has not yet made himself known.

Thomas is indeed the name I was thinking of. Consider: Thomas’ love was within his control. He needed only convincing. Out of love, God in Christ revealed himself to Thomas in a most graphic and grisly manner. Why? Because love demanded it. Why did God sacrifice His only Son for the sake of adulterers, murderers, thieves? Because He is love and the depth of His love demands that depth of sacrifice. God gives us the example, which we can choose, or refuse.

I can’t make myself feel that I have done anything wrong in being unconvinced by the evidence and arguments for any particular religion as you seem to think of atheists. I don’t have the power to force myself to believe what I don’t already believe.

You most certainly can - using the power of your will. How can you serve,or even acknowledge something which you do not believe in? To acknowledge is to believe - even to a very limited extent.

As far as I can tell, no one has such an ability to will themselves into believing something.

This is a good working definition of faith. To test this, let us consider the abused spouse, who wills the belief that the abuser has a hidden heart of gold only waiting to be revealed. That is a belief, however founded or unfounded, based upon the power of the human will.

Lack of belief can be viewed by a Christian as unfortunate but not as a personal moral failure since it is not in our control.

You have no free will? Of course you do! You have so far used it to remain unconvinced of God’s existence - of His love of you. Are you not using the old “devil made me do it” argument by denying that you have control over your cognitive processes or emotions?

If there is a God, the gift of belief is in God’s hands alone. As a believer, you must believe that God has a purpose for even me who does not believe, because God knows exactly what sort of evidence would convince me, yet has chosen in his wisdom not to provide it.

You are not the same person you were at 5, 10 or even 20. Your life, like all, is a process. God is revealing to you, through those with whom you interact, of His existence, but also of His substance. One day, He will reveal that which is required or necessary for you to come to belief. Perhaps He already has - but, like Thomas, you are simply obstinately (like Thomas) remaining in disbelief. Have you ever cried at a movie? Why? It was all false and contrived. Wasn’t some level of belief and/or faith involved in your decision to cry? To cry at a movie is irrational - unless you have some faith or belief in human nature and goodness, to start.

Best,
Leela

You likely do not see this closing as a prayer, but I do, for it is said out of concern for another. And concern also has its source in love.

 

[donsnow]

You have the wrong idea about atheism. It takes no faith to be unconvinced by the evidence for the truth of any particular religion. It doesn’t mean that a nonbeliever is 100% sure that God does not exist, it just means that one is either not very interested in the question or assigns some probability less than 50% to the existence of God.
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How do we love God? By loving our neighbors as ourselves. The goats and sheep will be separated not based on the percent of certainty that we can ascribe to the existence of God, but based on how well we took care of one another. See Matthew 25:31. Matthew again contradicts the fundamentalist interpretation of John’s Gospel when he quotes Jesus as saying, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” So by this interpretation of Christian theology, belief is not a sufficient nor even a necessary condition for salvation. It would rather seem to take faith, and it would also seem that someone can love God (by loving her neighbors) without believing in God.
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Best,
Leela

Hi, Leela -

Thank you, for a good post.

I was thinking of this very passage, Matt. 25, 31 - 46 as I ate my Thanksgiving dinner, brought to me by a very dear friend. The passage explicitly states which certain works will gain us entry into the Kingdom of God. It’s Jesus Christ prophesying who he will and will not let into the Kingdom on Judgement Day, so there’s no false Doctrine and I am sure that the translators and interpreters were very careful to get all of our Lord’s words right in all the Gospels.

To me, one of the revealing passages in this text, is where the people he lets in say, words to the effect, “How is this? When did we feed you when you were hungry; comfort you when you were ill; give drink to you when you were thirsty; clothe you when you were naked; and visit you in jail…?”
There will be people in that crowd who have none of the accepted labels that we judge people by…they’re wondering how they got into the Kingdom. There’ll be some of the church goers and some of the unchurched; there’ll be, imho, people from non-Christian religions wondering why the Christ is welcoming them. Etc.
This is one reason why we are to avoid rash judgment, and why rash judgment is a sin. We have no way of knowing, except the Holy Spirit, what others have done, before God.
There are other revelations in those 15 verses as well.

Hope everybody’s had a good Thanksgiving Day and Thanksgiving dinner.

 

[Leela]

Hi, Leela -

Thank you, for a good post.

I was thinking of this very passage, Matt. 25, 31 - 46 as I ate my Thanksgiving dinner, brought to me by a very dear friend. The passage explicitly states which certain works will gain us entry into the Kingdom of God. It’s Jesus Christ prophesying who he will and will not let into the Kingdom on Judgement Day, so there’s no false Doctrine and I am sure that the translators and interpreters were very careful to get all of our Lord’s words right in all the Gospels.

To me, one of the revealing passages in this text, is where the people he lets in say, words to the effect, “How is this? When did we feed you when you were hungry; comfort you when you were ill; give drink to you when you were thirsty; clothe you when you were naked; and visit you in jail…?”
There will be people in that crowd who have none of the accepted labels that we judge people by…they’re wondering how they got into the Kingdom. There’ll be some of the church goers and some of the unchurched; there’ll be, imho, people from non-Christian religions wondering why the Christ is welcoming them. Etc.
This is one reason why we are to avoid rash judgment, and why rash judgment is a sin. We have no way of knowing, except the Holy Spirit, what others have done, before God.
There are other revelations in those 15 verses as well.

Hope everybody’s had a good Thanksgiving Day and Thanksgiving dinner.

Thanks. Maybe you can explain this passage to po18guy

 

[Leela]

You most certainly can - using the power of your will.

Maybe you can demonstrate your power of will to believe something. Let’s start with something easy. Try making yourself believe that my birthday is March 19. (It is actually in January.) This should be a particularly easy one as far as making yourself believe things goes since it is of no consequence either way. If you get that one down, next you could demonstrate that you can make yourself believe that cats are actually called dogs and vice-versa. This is harder. You may just want to try believing it for a couple minutes, and then will yourself to believing that cats are cats again. That would be enough to convince me that you have this special ability that I don’t possess.

 

[po18guy]

Maybe you can demonstrate your power of will to believe something. Let’s start with something easy. Try making yourself believe that my birthday is March 19. (It is actually in January.) This should be a particularly easy one as far as making yourself believe things goes since it is of no consequence either way. If you get that one down, next you could demonstrate that you can make yourself believe that cats are actually called dogs and vice-versa. This is harder. You may just want to try believing it for a couple minutes, and then will yourself to believing that cats are cats again. That would be enough to convince me that you have this special ability that I don’t possess.

You will realize the power if you surrender yourself to someone outside of yourself. It’s love.

 

[donsnow]

Maybe you can demonstrate your power of will to believe something. Let’s start with something easy. Try making yourself believe that my birthday is March 19. (It is actually in January.) This should be a particularly easy one as far as making yourself believe things goes since it is of no consequence either way. If you get that one down, next you could demonstrate that you can make yourself believe that cats are actually called dogs and vice-versa. This is harder. You may just want to try believing it for a couple minutes, and then will yourself to believing that cats are cats again. That would be enough to convince me that you have this special ability that I don’t possess.

Hi, Leela -

Well, I don’t know if I can explain Jesus’ prophecy and its ramification as a foundation for works, to po18guy. My own understanding is based on the old saying, “Actions speak louder than words.”
I think Jesus is pointing out that a lot of people don’t think or talk about religion, but their works are acts of faith and love, nevertheless. What po18guy would think of that, I have no idea.
I do think, I might be able to clear up what he’s saying about ‘willing to believe’. As I understand it, our free will has much to do with freedom of choice. And, I have observed that personally, I clear a lot of baggage out of the way when I consciously choose to love. “I chose to love God.”
That put me in a better viewpoint.
I think the same works, at an unconscious level, with faith. Another personal example, in reverse, I choose to not believe Darwinism nor Darwin. That’s the first time I’ve made a conscious statement of my unconscious attitude toward that subject, but that unconscious choice has been there a long time.
So, I wonder if he’s trying to say you could make a conscious choice to believe in God?

Really not trying to gang up on you. What you choose to believe is up to you and your conscience, at this time. I don’t think po18guy should push you on this.
.
Just my two cents worth.