WHo is the cry room for?

[Usige]

That is a non-sequitur. At my parish, parents actually have guts. (Isn’t that shocking?) They actually restrain their kids and force them to behave in Mass. You know what? The church always full of people, and the vast majority of the members are families.

To say that it is impossible to cause a toddler to behave is to be ignorant of the abilities of discipline.

Thanks??? Where did I ever say that letting your kids misbehave is okay? I think you completely misunderstood my post. The point was that some parishes are unfriendly to children at mass and those parishes that make a parent feel like they must be in a cry room just in case their kid makes a peep are destined to be empty. Children make noise and most parents I know quiet them within a minute or two or take them to the narthex until they are behaved. A baby’s cry that is hushed is a joy because we know Gods love was not rejected.

Implying that I and others don’t have “the guts” to keep our children quiet was uncalled for. My wife and I are often told how well all 5 of our children behave in Mass thank you very much.

 

[Evania]

The sound of a crying or fussy baby is the sound of a Pro-Life decision.

So true!

 

[Evania]

It is extremely annoying when a child is in the pew in front of you playing with his toy cars along the pew, making ‘vroom’ noises and generally acting like he’s at home in his front room, even banging into you as you knell and pray. And if you ask him to stop, or even give him a ‘look’, the dagger looks you will get from the Mum with a response along the lines of, “He’s only a child”. You feel like saying. “Yes, and he’s your child, so take some responsibility and control his behaviour”.

Oh give me a break! Just because a parent chooses to give their child a coloring book or a toy car doesn’t make them a bad parent. It also doesn’t mean that the child is not disciplined or out of control. With a negative attitude like that, you could convince someone to not come back. Not every child has the same temperament. You don’t know if the child is autistic.

I remember praying in the Adoration Chapel. It was filled with many people saying the rosary. There was a two year old girl with Down’s Syndrome that was playing happily right in front of the altar. She was full of joy, bubbly and laughing. She also was babbling quite loudly. A few people let themselves be distracted, and shot dirty looks toward the father and the little girl. I’ll never forget how happy she looked innocently playing before Jesus. I honestly believe God got more glory from her than any of the rest of us in the room. When it was time to leave, her dad bent down to her and said, “Don’t forget to say goodbye to Jesus.” She bellowed, “Bye Jesus. I play with you tomorrow!” It was beautiful.

My point is: Be happy they are there regardless of whether they have a toy or not. Don’t let anything distract you from the beauty of the Mass. Don’t make a child feel ashamed. Let the little children come to Him.

 

[Sarabande]

Thanks??? Where did I ever say that letting your kids misbehave is okay? I think you completely misunderstood my post. The point was that some parishes are unfriendly to children at mass and those parishes that make a parent feel like they must be in a cry room just in case their kid makes a peep are destined to be empty. Children make noise and most parents I know quiet them within a minute or two or take them to the narthex until they are behaved. A baby’s cry that is hushed is a joy because we know Gods love was not rejected.

Implying that I and others don’t have “the guts” to keep our children quiet was uncalled for. My wife and I are often told how well all 5 of our children behave in Mass thank you very much.

Even in parishes where the parents are very good at correcting and hushing their children, there will still be sounds and noise from children. If we want absolute silence then maybe it should go back to parents taking turns watching the younger ones at home, like it was done in the past, but I don’t think most people would want to go back to that. It’s when and how the parents correct them, but we always should remember that sometimes the parents who are great at correcting will have a child who is being difficult one day or many days or every day. It can be a long process teaching appropriate behaviour at mass or other places. It can also be as quick as one or two corrections. All depends on the disposition of the child.

 

[Joe_5859]

Even in parishes where the parents are very good at correcting and hushing their children, there will still be sounds and noise from children. If we want absolute silence then maybe it should go back to parents taking turns watching the younger ones at home, like it was done in the past, but I don’t think most people would want to go back to that. It’s when and how the parents correct them, but we always should remember that sometimes the parents who are great at correcting will have a child who is being difficult one day or many days or every day. It can be a long process teaching appropriate behaviour at mass or other places. It can also be as quick as one or two corrections. All depends on the disposition of the child.

I know I certainly wouldn’t want to go back to an age where parents had to “take turns” going to Mass. Not everyone even can do that. Many small, rural parishes might only have one Mass time. And if you want to go to another parish, you’re driving a half hour or more in another direction.

You’re right about it being a process. Even if it is the parents’ fault, I think it’s safe to say that we all – fallen human beings that we are – have some bad habit or another. We don’t become perfect over night. Sometimes it takes time to recognize the root and address it. Dirty looks seldom help the process along.

 

[J_Peterson]

Oh give me a break! Just because a parent chooses to give their child a coloring book or a toy car doesn’t make them a bad parent. It also doesn’t mean that the child is not disciplined or out of control. With a negative attitude like that, you could convince someone to not come back. Not every child has the same temperament. You don’t know if the child is autistic.

I remember praying in the Adoration Chapel. It was filled with many people saying the rosary. There was a two year old girl with Down’s Syndrome that was playing happily right in front of the altar. She was full of joy, bubbly and laughing. She also was babbling quite loudly. A few people let themselves be distracted, and shot dirty looks toward the father and the little girl. I’ll never forget how happy she looked innocently playing before Jesus. I honestly believe God got more glory from her than any of the rest of us in the room. When it was time to leave, her dad bent down to her and said, “Don’t forget to say goodbye to Jesus.” She bellowed, “Bye Jesus. I play with you tomorrow!” It was beautiful.

My point is: Be happy they are there regardless of whether they have a toy or not. Don’t let anything distract you from the beauty of the Mass. Don’t make a child feel ashamed. Let the little children come to Him.

That’s a good point. Sounds like that little girl gets it more than the rest of us. We are not there for ourselves but for God. I really doubt God will be upset if you get distracted by a child. Getting upset at others is, in a sense, a selfish act.

 

[Joe_5859]

That’s a good point. Sounds like that little girl gets it more than the rest of us. We are not there for ourselves but for God. I really doubt God will be upset if you get distracted by a child. Getting upset at others is, in a sense, a selfish act.

That reminds me of what one of my old teachers always said to the the excuse “He made me do it!” No one can make you do anything.

If you see a crying child, you can choose to be distracted or not to be distracted. Easier said than done, of course.

 

[opus101]

Oh give me a break! Just because a parent chooses to give their child a coloring book or a toy car doesn’t make them a bad parent.

I think the toy cars are 100% out of line for Mass.
Does anyone remember children having those little Bible story picture books to look at during Mass? Do they make them anymore?
Quite, frankly, even coloring in a coloring book can be quite distracting when the child is allowed to spread it all out on the pew and color away.

Personally, I don’t remember people leaving their children at home during the late 60’s and 70’s. They usually had religious picture books to look at, and if they started acting up they were either corrected (and complied), or taken out to the vestibule or cry room.

 

[babochka]

Even in parishes where the parents are very good at correcting and hushing their children, there will still be sounds and noise from children. If we want absolute silence then maybe it should go back to parents taking turns watching the younger ones at home, like it was done in the past, but I don’t think most people would want to go back to that. It’s when and how the parents correct them, but we always should remember that sometimes the parents who are great at correcting will have a child who is being difficult one day or many days or every day. It can be a long process teaching appropriate behaviour at mass or other places. It can also be as quick as one or two corrections. All depends on the disposition of the child.

Absolutely! This is a process, sometimes a long one. I have 4 children who are generally well behaved in church. I also have a two year old. Every time his will is thwarted (for example, when I fail to let him run back and forth across the pews), he screams. Loudly. As I’m taking him out of the church, he screams, “I need my daddy!” “I need LaLa” (older sister). He’s also very, very talkative. His little mind is exploding with words. Sigh. This is gonna take a while. I have no doubt, however, that this will get better. All of this is developmentally appropriate. Yes, toddlers can be taught to be silent and well behaved, but teaching is a process. If some of you had toddlers who responded immediately to your corrections, thank the Lord that you were so blessed. Toddlers are notoriously stubborn, intractable and are known for throwing tantrums. The term “the terrible twos” isn’t a particularly modern phrase.

 

[Evania]

You don’t have to agree with it. It’s the judgemental attitude that is distracting. I’ve found that the adult that is busy “tsk tsking”, sighing loudly, or shooting pointed looks at the child is more distracting than a child coloring quietly in his seat.

Here’s the dilemma. The vast majority of people don’t agree with the concept of having a cry room. Ok fine. Here are the options.

1. The parents move into the church with their child who may or may not have a coloring book, a sippy cup, or a toy car to keep him occupied. If the child makes one peep, the parents get the “look” and is judged to be a bad parent. “Why can’t they control their kid?” "When my kids were young, (fill in the blank). “Back in my day, kids behaved. What is wrong with parents today?” What this person desires is for this human distraction to be removed so that the offended party can pray. Ok, so moving on…

2)The parents resort to going to different Mass times. That may work fine for some families, except that there are some who literally cannot do that due to their time constraints ( work, family, etc). Also, how awful is it to expect a family to worship separately just because someone is not able to be patient and cope with the limitations of some children? I LOVE to see families together at Mass! All week long the family is separated! Father and possibly Mother are at work, big brother and sister are at school. What grace is imparted to the family that prays and attends Mass together! Not to mention, children are being taught the value of having the WHOLE family attend Mass, which they will most likely do when they are adults. Instead of teaching the lesson of, if your kid makes a sound remove him immediately, how about fostering an attitude of gratitude that this family is here? Why not say," I know this must be hard on you, but you are doing a great job!"

The last option is the family stops attending. And then they get judged for leaving the Church.

 

[Sarabande]

Personally, I don’t remember people leaving their children at home during the late 60’s and 70’s. They usually had religious picture books to look at, and if they started acting up they were either corrected (and complied), or taken out to the vestibule or cry room.

The 60s and 70s seem to be the time when that changed from what I’m reading here. My grandparents spent time on the west coast, although most of their lives on the east coast. In the 40s and 50s and early 60s (when they were having their children) the younger children and babies stayed home. Their children were older by the late 60s and there were a lot of changes in the mass then, so things were a lot different. And as I mentioned, when my grandparents brought their first child to mass in 1945/46, the priests at the parish took turns watching him while my grandparents were at mass. He did not actually attend the mass. It just wasn’t done, apparently, to have your babies there. My grandfather was Protestant and he probably could have easily stayed home like he did with the younger children later on, but I think the priests wanted to help them both attend mass together, especially knowing that he wasn’t Catholic. (He later was going to join RCIA and become Catholic shortly before he passed away, so all of those years of prayers and patience on my grandmother’s part worked.) My grandmother has very fond memories about those priests. They were so good to them, especially since they were all on their own out there.

 

[Sarabande]

You don’t have to agree with it. It’s the judgemental attitude that is distracting. I’ve found that the adult that is busy “tsk tsking”, sighing loudly, or shooting pointed looks at the child is more distracting than a child coloring quietly in his seat.

Here’s the dilemma. The vast majority of people don’t agree with the concept of having a cry room. Ok fine. Here are the options.

1. The parents move into the church with their child who may or may not have a coloring book, a sippy cup, or a toy car to keep him occupied. If the child makes one peep, the parents get the “look” and is judged to be a bad parent. “Why can’t they control their kid?” "When my kids were young, (fill in the blank). “Back in my day, kids behaved. What is wrong with parents today?” What this person desires is for this human distraction to be removed so that the offended party can pray. Ok, so moving on…

2)The parents resort to going to different Mass times. That may work fine for some families, except that there are some who literally cannot do that due to their time constraints ( work, family, etc). Also, how awful is it to expect a family to worship separately just because someone is not able to be patient and cope with the limitations of some children? I LOVE to see families together at Mass! All week long the family is separated! Father and possibly Mother are at work, big brother and sister are at school. What grace is imparted to the family that prays and attends Mass together! Not to mention, children are being taught the value of having the WHOLE family attend Mass, which they will most likely do when they are adults. Instead of teaching the lesson of, if your kid makes a sound remove him immediately, how about fostering an attitude of gratitude that this family is here? Why not say," I know this must be hard on you, but you are doing a great job!"

The last option is the family stops attending. And then they get judged for leaving the Church.

I think the last option is people to be more patient and expect that there will be some noise at mass when there are children, even when parents are good at correcting their children. I’m one who doesn’t like cry rooms. After my experience with them, I would never bring my child back into one again. It really fosters worse behaviour and I didn’t like the attitudes of the parents who gave me dirty looks for not allowing my daughter to play around with the other children in the cry room. BUT I am very patient and understanding when it comes to teaching proper behaviour at mass and when parents are doing their best. I understand it can be a long learning process for each individual child and even sometimes for parents - new and experienced. Judging doesn’t help. Dirty looks don’t help.

There still should be expectations of what’s appropriate, but I think patience and understanding is key as well. We should give people the benefit of the doubt if needed. Of course, there will always be parents who really don’t care and think that little Johnny or little Suzy are angels and should do whatever they want… I see it more and more when I take my children to the playground. I become utterly embarrassed and upset when my daughter doesn’t act how I’ve been trying to train her. Some parents think I’m too old-fashioned and I should allow her to do what she wants, because, after all, “she’s only a kid” and she should be free. Yes, she’s only three, but it’s not too young to begin teaching boundaries and what’s appropriate behaviour. It just sometimes takes a long time. But I do think many parents still try to do the right thing.

 

[Evania]

I absolutely agree that proper behavior needs to be taught, but it is a process. Sometimes that process may include something the offended party may not approve of ( sippy cup, toy, etc…) It honestly does not bother me when I’m sitting behind a child who is learning to be quiet during Mass by occupying himself with a coloring book, car…Nine times out of ten the parent is respectful enough to remove the child if things really get out of hand. However, I’m not going to put pressure on that parent by shooting them a dirty look or judging them simply because their child made a “Vroom Vroom” noise playing with their toy car. I remember how tough it was. I remember bringing my small son with me to Mass for the first time, after I came back to the Church. I explained as best as you can to a two year old on what was expected. We sat together in a pew, and I gave him a drawing pad and a pen. He was perfectly quiet, until he asked a question. He pointed to the hymnal and asked, “What’s that?” This younger man turned around to my son, and as loud as he could goes, “SHHHHHHHHH!” The people around me were horrified. Thankfully, the other people around me complimented me on how well behaved my son was. Thankfully, I was rooted enough by then in my love of the Eucharist to know that Catholicism was where I wanted to be. If it was a mere few months earlier though, I probably wouldn’t have come back for a second Mass.

 

[Sarabande]

I absolutely agree that proper behavior needs to be taught, but it is a process. Sometimes that process may include something the offended party may not approve of ( sippy cup, toy, etc…) It honestly does not bother me when I’m sitting behind a child who is learning to be quiet during Mass by occupying himself with a coloring book, car…Nine times out of ten the parent is respectful enough to remove the child if things really get out of hand. However, I’m not going to put pressure on that parent by shooting them a dirty look or judging them simply because their child made a “Vroom Vroom” noise playing with their toy car. I remember how tough it was. I remember bringing my small son with me to Mass for the first time, after I came back to the Church. I explained as best as you can to a two year old on what was expected. We sat together in a pew, and I gave him a drawing pad and a pen. He was perfectly quiet, until he asked a question. He pointed to the hymnal and asked, “What’s that?” This younger man turned around to my son, and as loud as he could goes, “SHHHHHHHHH!” The people around me were horrified. Thankfully, the other people around me complimented me on how well behaved my son was. Thankfully, I was rooted enough by then in my love of the Eucharist to know that Catholicism was where I wanted to be. If it was a mere few months earlier though, I probably wouldn’t have come back for a second Mass.

Exactly. That’s why I think the last option (which would be my preferred option) would be for people to be more patient and expect some noise at mass when there are children or babies around. If absolute silence is expected, then they need to attend a mass when there aren’t any young children or babies. Judging and dirty looks don’t help.

What I find really funny is when you see young children making the “SHHHHHHHH” sound to adults or other children who are talking or making noise. My daughter did that once to her baby brother who was gurgling and cooing. My husband quickly quieted her, but she still ended up making some noise. If someone gets upset about that even though my husband did quiet her down as quickly as he could, there are other issues that person needs to address and the problem is on him/her and not on the parent actually doing the right thing by correcting it. Now, if my husband didn’t do anything about it and allowed her to keep making the “Shh” sound, then the problem would be on him and he would be completely at fault for allowing it. But, I am actually patient and understanding. Even when parents are “failing” at what they are doing, I try to give the benefit of the doubt and assume nicely that next week, they’ll get it better next time. As long as they are trying hard to teach and learn the process for each child, that is good.

 

[Evania]

Exactly. That’s why I think the last option (which would be my preferred option) would be for people to be more patient and expect some noise at mass when there are children or babies around. If absolute silence is expected, then they need to attend a mass when there aren’t any young children or babies. Judging and dirty looks don’t help.

What I find really funny is when you see young children making the “SHHHHHHHH” sound to adults or other children who are talking or making noise. My daughter did that once to her baby brother who was gurgling and cooing. My husband quickly quieted her, but she still ended up making some noise. If someone gets upset about that even though my husband did quiet her down as quickly as he could, there are other issues that person needs to address and the problem is on him/her and not on the parent actually doing the right thing by correcting it. Now, if my husband didn’t do anything about it and allowed her to keep making the “Shh” sound, then the problem would be on him and he would be completely at fault for allowing it. But, I am actually patient and understanding. Even when parents are “failing” at what they are doing, I try to give the benefit of the doubt and assume nicely that next week, they’ll get it better next time. As long as they are trying hard to teach and learn the process for each child, that is good.

Absolutely agree!

 

[Brendan_64]

I think the toy cars are 100% out of line for Mass.

If children are made known very clearly that the church is very different from any other place they go to, and that the expectation of standard of behavior is very high indeed, much higher than when they are anywhere else, then they will be far more likely to behave appropriately.

Letting them bring toys and games into Mass is just giving them the message that the church is no different to anywhere else they might go (such as a restaurant) where they may be expected to be quiet.

Just have a couple of toy cars and race them noisily up and down the pews, why not stack the hymnals up while you’re at it to make a nice ramp to run the cars down? Crawl under the pews too, it makes a nice indoor adventure playground. Who cares if you disturb people trying to pray privately after Communion? After all you’re just a child and shouldn’t be expected to curtail your behavior.

What I don’t accept is that pre-1990, parents were able to make their children behave at Mass, but now it seems to be argued that just it isn’t possible to do so, and that these days children need to bring toys in to play with. Are children biologically so different now to children 30 years ago that they cannot possibly be made to behave? I doubt it. Or is it that some parents today seem to view compelling a child to behave (against his will) is somehow a unkind thing to do?

 

[Evania]

If children are made known very clearly that the church is very different from any other place they go to, and that the expectation of standard of behavior is very high indeed, much higher than when they are anywhere else, then they will be far more likely to behave appropriately.

Letting them bring toys and games into Mass is just giving them the message that the church is no different to anywhere else they might go (such as a restaurant) where they may be expected to be quiet.

Just have a couple of toy cars and race them noisily up and down the pews, why not stack the hymnals up while you’re at it to make a nice ramp to run the cars down? Crawl under the pews too, it makes a nice indoor adventure playground. Who cares if you disturb people trying to pray privately after Communion? After all you’re just a child and shouldn’t be expected to curtail your behavior.

What I don’t accept is that pre-1990, parents were able to make their children behave at Mass, but now it seems to be argued that just it isn’t possible to do so, and that these days children need to bring toys in to play with. Are children biologically so different now to children 30 years ago that they cannot possibly be made to behave? I doubt it. Or is it that some parents today seem to view compelling a child to behave (against his will) is somehow a unkind thing to do?

Guess what Brendan, sometimes, despite a parents best efforts, a child is still going to act up. Thank goodness they have you there to put a stop to it by shooting them a dirty look. Exactly how, is that going to help? I think what you’re hoping to accomplish is that they leave you to pray peacefully to the same Jesus that asks for the little children to come to them, and not to hinder them.

Another thing, my kids had coloring books, cars, etc while growing up…They also have a deep desire to join the priesthood. Please tell me how I have failed to give them a proper respect of the Mass. Better yet, tell me how your example is teaching anyone any respect at all!

Who is saying that parents are saying that it isn’t possible to expect their children to behave? How do you suggest we “make” them? Do you suggest spanking? Unfortunately, we live in the day and age where if you spank your kids in public, CPS is called and you are investigated. That actually happened at our church.

A better suggestion is, next time a child is “offending” you by drinking out of a sippy cup, that you offer it up as St. Therese did. When she was in Adoration, a nun would make an irritating sound with her throat. After awhile, after offering it up as a prayer for the distracting nun, she was able to see her through the eyes of God.

Respond with charity.

 

[Brendan_64]

Guess what Brendan, sometimes, despite a parents best efforts, a child is still going to act up. Thank goodness they have you there to put a stop to it by shooting them a dirty look. Exactly how, is that going to help?

How is it going to help? Well it does actually work at times, the kid puts down his car and goes over to his Mum. You could say that I’m doing my bit to help out a stressed parent.

 

[CradleJourney]

I think the toy cars are 100% out of line for Mass.
Does anyone remember children having those little Bible story picture books to look at during Mass? Do they make them anymore?

Exactly. I may be wrong, but the parents I see now seem to really want their children to behave - but have no clear plan to cause it to happen. Thus my idea of publishing suggestions for young children at mass - the same as I see in our bulletin for keeping marriages strong, etc. I immediately see the danger of letting a toy car into mass, for example, and never let mine do so. However, I was also taught to think this way by my own parents.

I believe parents in my parish see other parents giving kids snacks, noisy toys, etc. and they just figure this is the way you do it and hope for the best. Glaring at them isn’t the answer - helping them figure out a better way is.

Even when they were very tiny, I always put a “shhhh” finger over my infants lips and did a quick “no” shake of my head when they start to babble during mass. Did they have a clue? Absolutely not. But I believe it contributed over time to them learning not to speak during church - both by the “negative” finger and facial expression, the positive ones I gave them while they were quiet, and the example I set of my own behavior (phsyical gestures of support and correction but not verbal ones). Now granted - this means that for the majority of 2 to 4 straight years, I was more focused on my child than on the liturgy - but, for me, that was part of caring for these precious gifts I was given by God. Periodically, I did leave them at home so I could get in a full mass of actual worship, but this was not my norm.

Now I get the pleasure of being able to attend Mass, my children (7 to 15) present, and usually I will not once have to even have a thought to their behavior. No trips to the bathroom, no whispers, proper body positions, verbal participation in the mass sigh For me it was well worth the years of constant vigilance and correction. But like I said, I was taught to parent, and I have a definite impression that many parents want this kind of outcome but have no understanding of what to do beyond attempt to distract their child, take them out when noisy, and get fed up because they feel it will never end.

Sorry…kind of ranted on it, but parenting is sort of my thing (And I admit, writing is not - your kind tolerance is appreciated for my misspeaks and my errors.)

God bless!

 

[nickybr38]

Just sayin… I find it curious that my sister’s kids, who have never been given toys or books in Mass can sit quietly (despite being high strung kids in every other situation) but my friends kids (same age) even with their books and toys act up all throughout Mass.

I’m not a parent though so I hesitate to make any harsh judgments. I just see a direct correlation there (especially since the kids are the same ages).