Who is the woman in Rev.12?

[joseie]

In the vision ,if some body mentions about past things and say how it should be corrected ,it does not mean the vision itself is of past things .

 

[Francis]

Pius IX: “God enriched her so wonderfully from the treasury of His divinity, far beyond all angels and saints with the abundance of all heavenly gifts, that she . . .should show forth such fullness of innocence and holiness, than which a greater under God is unthinkable and which, beside God, no one can even conceive in thought.”
Hence, whatever virtue and holiness is found in angels and saints must be present in Mary in an immeasurably higher degree.

Sirach 3:18 The greater you are, the more you must humble yourself;
so you will find favor in the sight of the Lord. 19, Many are lofty and renowned, but to the humble he reveals his secrets.

Luke 7:35 35 Nevertheless, wisdom is vindicated by all her(Mary) children.”

The Virgin Mary, Queen of all nations, Queen of all hearts, who “held in [her] womb Him whom the heavens cannot contain” (St. Cyril of Alexandria), is wonderfully prefigured in all her splendor in the Book of Ecclesiaticus (Sirach), Chapter 24. Verses 6-10 of this classic Marian text foretell the regality of Our Blessed Lady and the universality of her reign, which extends to all places and peoples.
In this sixth verse the Holy Spirit indicates that the Immaculate Lady Wisdom will bring forth a light to rise that never faileth. Who is this perfect light that rises? It is the uncreated Light that Saint John spoke about in the Prologue of his sublime Gospel. This is the uncreated Light who is the Son of God and the Son of Mary. Why does the Holy Spirit say that He shall rise? The Son of God as the uncreated Light rises by virtue of His Resurrection from the grave and by His glorious Ascension to the right hand of God the Father.

Sirach 24:6 Over waves of the sea, over all the earth,and over every people and nation I have held sway.7 Among all these I sought a resting place; in whose territory should I abide?8 “Then the Creator of all things gave me (Mary) a command,and my Creator chose the place for my tent.He said, ‘Make your dwelling in Jacob,and in Israel receive your inheritance.’9 Before the ages, in the beginning, he created me,and for all the ages I shall not cease to be.

10 In the holy tent I ministered before him,and so I was established in Zion (Mary). Zechariah 9:9: “Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion! Shout aloud, O daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your king comes to you. Triumphant and victorious is he, humble and riding on a donkey.” This time, Zion(Mary) is identified to “the multitude of the disciples” whose shout of joy was: “Blessed is the King who comes in the name of the Lord! Peace in heaven and glory in the highest!” (Lk 19:37-38).

Sirach 24:18, I am the mother(Mary) of beautiful love, of fear, of knowledge, and of holy hope; being eternal, I am given to all my children, to those who are named by him. therefore She is also Wisdom

 

[Francis]

the sign of your coming Matthew 24:8 all this is but the beginning of the birth pangs.this pain is the sign of the circumstances of time when Jesus was born,under the rule of the Romans

 

[Benadam]

But the one who the vision belongs is Himself the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and the Omega. In respect of who the vision originates it is about all history. We call Jesus the Lord of History.

 

[Francis]

Yet, Jesus humbled in Philippians 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God ,did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited,7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form,8 he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death—even death on a cross.

Luke 2:19,52 19 But Mary treasured all these words and pondered them in her heart. 51 Then he went down with them and came to Nazareth, and was obedient to them. His mother treasured all these things in her heart.

God choose She to be his mother. Genesis 3:15 15 I will put enmities between thee(satan) and the woman(Mary), and thy(satan and wicked people ) seed and her seed(Jesus and we Catholic and those who respect and honor her ): she(Mother Mary) shall crush thy(satan) head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her(Mother Mary) heel. Galatians 4:4-6 But when the fullness of the time was come, God sent his Son, made of a woman, made under the law:
5 That he might redeem them who were under the law: that we might receive the adoption of sons.Galatians 4:26 But the other woman corresponds to the Jerusalem above; she is free and she is our mother ( MARY). (MOTHER MARY IS SINLESS and Mary retain "perpetual virginity), 27 For it is written, “Rejoice, you childless one, you who bear no children, burst into song and shout, you who endure no birth pangs; for the children of the desolate woman are more numerous than the children of the one who is married

Isaiah 7:14 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign. Behold a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and his name shall be called Emmanuel.

In honoring the words of Jesus in John 19:26 When Jesus saw his mother, and the disciple whom he loved standing near, he said to his mother, “Woman,(addressing as the Women of Genesis 3:15 the New Eve our Mother Mary) behold, your son!” 27 Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother!”( its a commandment Exodus 20:12 “Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long(Eternity ) in the land (Heaven)which the Lord your God gives you).And from that hour the disciple took her to his own home(His heart, the Church, for all human race for Eternity). (**Note - Just as Eve became the mother of all of the living at the foot of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, Genesis 3:20, just so, Mary becomes our mother at the foot of the cross, also called a tree in Acts 5:30. John was standing in for all of the Church here. Notice how Jesus uses the universal term “Woman” here, rather than “Mother”, and how he does not address the disciple John by his name. This implies that Jesus is referring to The Church as a whole, rather than just John and Mary.)

Yea,those who also reject his words deliberately even after knowing it Listen not to others? sinners? scoffers, or those who say the opposite of the Word of God and twist it ,believe in the Gospels, His Doctrines, His infallible Words ? the Only Truth John 17:17 follow His Commandments and not change them as said in Matthew 5:18 For amen I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot, or one tittle shall not pass of the law, till all be fulfilled.

 

[guanophore]

In the vision ,if some body mentions about past things and say how it should be corrected ,it does not mean the vision itself is of past things .

No, it is an exercise of the gift of prophesy. The prophetic gift speaks God’s point of view into the present. Although there are times when this involves revealing things about the future, it may also be God’s perspective of things that have occurred, or are occurring.

 

[joseie]

“Although there are times when this involves revealing things about the future…”
Pl.note that the Revelation is full of such times only as specifically said in 1-1.
It is seen that the whole confusion needing such vain justifications came up only because the women in Ch 12 is taken as Mary.Is it not possible to take it as some thing else and the whole vision in ch12 as things which are yet to happen so that it is in harmony with other chapters and is in conformity with 1-1.?

 

[po18guy]

God’s revealed word has many potential meanings and applications. There is very little that has but a single meaning. A crude analogy is the dictionary. Try to find a single word with but a single definition - although there may not be another word for thesaurus.

 

[Benadam]

.Is it not possible to take it as some thing else and the whole vision in ch12 as things which are yet to happen so that it is in harmony with other chapters and is in conformity with 1-1.?

It is future in that the woman is also the Church who is the bride of Christ. In the Christ Event eternity entered time and human history. So the true end of all history is found in that event. Scripture is a witness and attests that, in that Event Jesus is established as the ‘New Man’ and by Jesus, Mary is established as the ‘New Woman’.That is just.as it is described in His vision given to John the Beloved. John becomes the protective son of the Mother of Our Lord and model of the Church. The Church’s end is to be a spotless bride the model of which is the Spotless Wife Our Blessed Mother. In this way the future’s and the past’s intended end is in the New Man and the New Woman. Just as every human life is contingent on Adam and Eve every human living in eternity is contingent on Jesus and Mary. In Mary the Church finds who she is and through her she becomes the spotless bride. This is how the Woman in ch 12 is soon to take place.

 

[guanophore]

It is seen that the whole confusion needing such vain justifications

I see that you have some sort of irrational and fundamental need to cling to your truncated understanding of the gift of prophesy.

such vain justifications came up only because the women in Ch 12 is taken as Mary.

This avoidance of the facts seems to be based on a strong prejudice to dismiss the interpretation of Mary as the woman in Ch. 12.

.Is it not possible to take it as some thing else and the whole vision in ch12 as things which are yet to happen so that it is in harmony with other chapters and is in conformity with 1-1.?

If you are so inclined, and there comes a time when you are more open minded and willing to learn, you can always re-read this thread, which is full of alternative viewpoints about this book.

There is nothing inharmonious about understanding this image as representing the Blessed Mother.

But I see that for some reason it is very important to you to reject this possibility. Perhaps you are one of those black and white thinkers. It must be “either/or” for you, so this image cannot represent more than one thing at a time?

 

[joseie]

It is not fair to question one’s belief (I am a devot Catholic)when confronted with a difficult or embarrassing question.I have already explained in many postings in this thread why the women is not Mary.Instead of replying to many specific points I raised,you appear to be beating around the bush and trying, but in vain,to confuse.

 

[joseie]

Usual excuse.So bible was not written for ordinary people to read and understand it’s plain meaning?

 

[po18guy]

What makes you think that the words of the supreme intellect will be readily understood by much lower created beings? Read Nehemiah 8:5-8 for example. Ezra and the Levites read the scripture regarding the Mosaic law and gave the sense of it so that the people could understand.

Those who labor under the delusion that they fully comprehend the scriptures, and are somehow anointed by God to explain them, elevate themselves and lead the faithful astray.

 

[guanophore]

It is not fair to question one’s belief

I have reflected what I have understood from your posts, and I have asked you about your beliefs. Since you have not stated otherwise, I will conclude that my assumption is correct, and you are carrying some anti-Catholic fundamentalist ideas and are unable to be open to other ways of thinking.

…when confronted with a difficult or embarrassing question…

Perhaps someone confronted you with one of these, but nothing you have brought to this thread is in any way difficult or embarrassing for Catholics. We accept some premises that non-Catholics and fundmentalists such as yourself sometimes do not, such as 1) Prophetic literature is not always about telling the future 2) Apocalyptic literature contains polyvalent images that may represent more than one truth at the same time 3) We accept the Teaching of the Church as authorative, over and above our own private interpretation.

I have already explained in many postings in this thread why the women is not Mary.I

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. It does not square with your claim that you are a devot(sic) Catholic, but God has given you free will to depart from the Teaching of the Church if you so desire. You will not be the first person to abandon Catholic faith in favor of fundamentalism.

Instead of replying to many specific points I raised,you appear to be beating around the bush and trying, but in vain,to confuse.

I can understand why you are confused, and also why you cannot accept any alternative points of view.

Usual excuse.So bible was not written for ordinary people to read and understand it’s plain meaning?

Yes and no. The Apocalypse was written specifically to reveal truths in a format that would not be understood apart from the Teaching of the Church. This was done to protect the faithful from persecution.

Those who labor under the delusion that they fully comprehend the scriptures, and are somehow anointed by God to explain them, elevate themselves and lead the faithful astray.

Fortunately, I don’t think this particular poster will be leading anyone astray but themselves.

 

[po18guy]

The “Woman” - note that address - gives birth to a male child who is to rule the nations with a rod of iron. So what?

Psalm 2:7-9 (A Messianic Psalm) "I will tell of the decree of the Lord:
He said to me, “You are my son,
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron,
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”

Mary, the “Woman” in John 2, was given by Jesus to John at the foot of the cross in John 19 - to be his mother, even though John’s birth mother was also there! The “Woman” is the mother of those who keep Christ’s commands, therefore, our mother.

I have difficulty with the Woman being the Church. Why? The Church did not birth Christ - Christ birthed the Church.

John was speaking of the (lost) Ark of the Covenant in Rev. 11, but suddenly stopped cold. Then, the “Woman” appeared. Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. The original Ark carried stone tablets, Aaron’s staff and manna. Mary carried Jesus, the living and breathing Word, the Staff of Life and the Bread from heaven in her womb. No one - no pure human - is more blessed.

In truth, like all of God’s messages, the “Woman” has several aspects. To insist on either/or is simply error.

 

[joseie]

Instead of replying to many specific points I raised,you appear to be beating around the bush and trying, but in vain,to confuse.

I can understand why you are confused, and also why you cannot accept any alternative points of view.
From your reply to my point as extracted above you have only proved what I said.Beating around the bush avoiding reply to the specific points.Writing some thing irrelevant after repeating each sentence or part of my sentence is not the same as replying to the specific points raised,though for some poor souls it may appear so.Similarly I never said I am confused.I said you are trying in vain to confuse which you have done again now.
I pray to God that people may be given wisdom to realize and correct their intolerant attitudes and blind believes and make them understand the Scriptures in its plain and proper meaning.

 

[guanophore]

From your reply to my point as extracted above you have only proved what I said.

Yes, this is a good demonstration of researcher bias. A person approaches a learning opportunity with a preconceived notion, so all they hear/find confirms their preconceptions.

Beating around the bush avoiding reply to the specific points.

I can understand why looking from different points of view seems like beating around the bush. In fact, you seem to be cognitively unable to walk around the bush to look at the bush from different points if view.

Writing some thing irrelevant after repeating each sentence or part of my sentence is not the same as replying to the specific points raised

No, but it clarifies the reasons that you are unable to accept the replies that were offered on this thread. Other people who are open and willing will be able to read the thread more productively.

Similarly I never said I am confused.

And yet, you clearly are.

I pray to God that people may be given wisdom to realize and correct their intolerant attitudes and blind believes and make them understand the Scriptures in its plain and proper meaning.

I can certainly add my “Amen” to this.

A proper understanding of the Scriptures require that they be understood in the context from which they are written. The context of the NT is the Catholic faith. There is nothing in the NT that is not Catholic, since it was written by, for, and about Catholics.

When a person tries to find ways to interpret the contents separated from the faith that produced it, one will easily go off the rails.

 

[Cathoholic]

It is an image of the Blessed Virgin Mary in one sense.
In another sense it is the Church.

CCC 115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.

CCC 116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83

CCC 117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God’s plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.

1. The allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ’s victory and also of Christian Baptism.84
2. The moral sense. The events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written “for our instruction”.85
3. The anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, “leading”). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86

.

Think of the Virgin Birth as painless (as the Roman Catechism says).

Q: OK Cathoholic. WHY is this Woman in pain if it is Mary and you said Her birthing Jesus was painless?

Because there is not just a (painless) birthing of Christ (Jesus) at Bethlehem,
but a (painful) birthing of the Mystical Body of Christ (the Church) at Calvary.

Both senses are being shown to you in Revelation.

God bless.

Cathoholic

 

[Benadam]

It is not fair to question one’s belief (I am a devot Catholic)when confronted with a difficult or embarrassing question.I have already explained in many postings in this thread why the women is not Mary.Instead of replying to many specific points I raised,you appear to be beating around the bush and trying, but in vain,to confuse.

The OP title ask’s who? but you complain here that who you say it’s not isn’t accepted. That’s duplicitous wouldn’t you say? You haven’t said anything that exposes error. You have read much that exposes your error. That is the truth of this thread.

 

[joseie]

I think it is time that this thread be wound up as every body else is clinging to the view that it is Mary and also since it started to raise allegations against the O.P.
My view ,which I still hold( I suppose it is not a sin) is that like all other chapters and as said in the beginning itself,the vision in ch.12 is about some thing yet to happen and consequently it is neither Mary’s delivery of Jesus nor the birth of the church as these have already happened.Even otherwise also it will be a wild speculation to try to correlate the incidents in the vision to Mary escaping from Herod, John taking care of Mary etc…Anyhow it is not of much difference whether it is Mary or not…