Who really replaced Judas ? [ Mathias or Paul]

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jmcrae said:
I have heard this argument used by Protestants, who see the choice of Matthias by lot as a kind of “gambling” that they assume God would disapprove of - they say that God chose St. Paul because the choice of St. Matthias was made invalid by the fact that the Apostles cast lots.

I’m not sure what Dr. Hahn is basing his argument on, but I think in this case, we should go with the plain sense of the Scriptures, which tell us that St. Matthias was selected to replace Judas, and that St. Paul’s apostleship came directly from Christ Himself, just like that of the original 12.

As for not hearing much from St. Matthias, this also goes for the majority of the Apostles - we really only “hear from” five of them after the Ascension into Heaven.
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I never heard the argument that Matthias’ election was flawed until a couple of months ago on these forums where one of our usual bellicose Protestant interlocutors mentioned the business about casting lots, adding that by doing this before the descent of the Holy Spirit, “Peter really screwed up.”

NotWorthy’s observation that the complement of 12 had to be complete BEFORE the descent of the Holy Spirit makes perfect sense. Although Paul’s vocation came directly from Christ Himself, in keeping with Our Lord’s establishment of an apostolic ministry, Paul does not go on mission before hands are laid upon him by the Church. Paul does not receive the Holy Spirit until Ananias baptizes him. Paul’s distinctive calling is not a “Lone Ranger” operation.
 
mercygate said:
Although Paul’s vocation came directly from Christ Himself, in keeping with Our Lord’s establishment of an apostolic ministry, Paul does not go on mission before hands are laid upon him by the Church. Paul does not receive the Holy Spirit until Ananias baptizes him. Paul’s distinctive calling is not a “Lone Ranger” operation.
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If Paul felt that He was the Twelfth Apostle, and knowing Paul from what we’ve read about him, I believe he would have castigated Peter and the others for deviating from Jesus’ role as leader of the Church.

But instead, Paul refers to them as “The Twelve”. That should eliminate Paul as the “12th Man” (To any Texas A&M Aggies out there, no pun intended).
 
NotWorthy said:
If Paul felt that He was the Twelfth Apostle, and knowing Paul from what we’ve read about him, I believe he would have castigated Peter and the others for deviating from Jesus’ role as leader of the Church.

But instead, Paul refers to them as “The Twelve”. That should eliminate Paul as the “12th Man” (To any Texas A&M Aggies out there, no pun intended).
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NotWorthy, you’re really getting on my nerves here! I can’t stand it when people are smarter and scripturally quicker on the draw than I am! 😛
 
NotWorthy said:
If Paul felt that He was the Twelfth Apostle, and knowing Paul from what we’ve read about him, I believe he would have castigated Peter and the others for deviating from Jesus’ role as leader of the Church.

But instead, Paul refers to them as “The Twelve”. That should eliminate Paul as the “12th Man” (To any Texas A&M Aggies out there, no pun intended).
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Paul calls himself an apostle throughout his letters, again, and again, and again, and again, and again…

Paul uses the term “The Twelve” to refer to Jesus’ original core group in 1 Cor 15:5, even though there were only eleven at the event he describes (Jesus’ post-resurrection appearance). Paul says he is an “abnormally born” addition to the rolls of the apostles in 1 Cor 15:8-9.

Luke (a disciple of Paul) in writing the Book of Acts, specifically calls Paul an apostle in Acts 14:14.

None of the other eleven/twelve specifically name Paul an apostle. BUT… knowing full well that Paul was proclaiming himself an apostle, no one stands up and says Paul isn’t one either.
 
NotWorthy said:
Bingo! We have a Bingo.!

Actually, I had just got in from vacation and was feeling too lazy to look it up. Thanks, po!
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You have the right! It’s kinda hot in Sour Lake about right now. Up here, where we have the heat on, I had lots of time to look around in scripture.

Christ’s peace.

p.s. send global warming, please!
 
Nan_S said:
Paul calls himself an apostle throughout his letters, again, and again, and again, and again, and again…
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I don’t deny that. We’re talking though of the assertion that Paul is actually the Twelfth Apostle, instead of Mathias.
Nan_S said:
Paul uses the term “The Twelve” to refer to Jesus’ original core group in 1 Cor 15:5, even though there were only eleven at the event he describes (Jesus’ post-resurrection appearance). Paul says he is an “abnormally born” addition to the rolls of the apostles in 1 Cor 15:8-9.
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This may be conjecture. Mathias was chosen because he was a witness. He would probably have been there in the upper room when Jesus appeared. So he would have been part of the “Twelve” that Jesus visited in Paul’s comments. Those are my thoughts, however.
Nan_S said:
Luke (a disciple of Paul) in writing the Book of Acts, specifically calls Paul an apostle in Acts 14:14.

None of the other eleven/twelve specifically name Paul an apostle. BUT… knowing full well that Paul was proclaiming himself an apostle, no one stands up and says Paul isn’t one either.
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And neither do I. I think you are mis-reading the intent of my post. I don’t deny that Paul was an Apostle. I’m just trying to prove that Mathias was legitimately considered one of “The Twelve”.
 
po18guy said:
You have the right! It’s kinda hot in Sour Lake about right now. Up here, where we have the heat on, I had lots of time to look around in scripture.

Christ’s peace.

p.s. send global warming, please!
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You can have all the heat you want! When I’m cutting grass in 90 degree weather with 95% humidity, I’m going to be envying you, my friend!
 
mercygate said:
NotWorthy, you’re really getting on my nerves here! I can’t stand it when people are smarter and scripturally quicker on the draw than I am! 😛
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Hey, even the blind hog sometimes finds the acorn!!! :cool:
 
NotWorthy said:
You can have all the heat you want! When I’m cutting grass in 90 degree weather with 95% humidity, I’m going to be envying you, my friend!
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Suffer as you might, you do not risk losing a toe to “heatbite”!

Referring again to: Matthew 19:28 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

This seems to exclude Paul from judging the twelve tribes, since Paul was persecuting the church, rather than following Christ when this was spoken by our Lord. Just my opinion.

Christ’s peace…
 
po18guy said:
Suffer as you might, you do not risk losing a toe to “heatbite”!
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When was the last time you collapsed from “cold exhaustion”!! And yes, while cutting the grass, I did laugh at your words! 🙂
 
NotWorthy said:
When was the last time you collapsed from “cold exhaustion”!! And yes, while cutting the grass, I did laugh at your words! 🙂
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You never collapse from cold exhaustion - you freeze in place. Every darned time I’ve had cold exhaustion, DW had to come out and throw a bucket of hot water on my feet so I was no longer part of terra firma.

Christ’s peace.
 
We were talking the other day at our Renew group. Someone called Barnabas the “Maxwell Smart of the Disciples”. You can almost hear him saying, “Missed by 'this much’” regarding the Apostleship (for full effect, hold your fingers close together and use your best Maxwell Smart voice).
 
I think its important to diferentiate, for the sake of this thread, between the 12 Apostles, and an apostle.

12 Apostles, God’s chosen men to be the first leaders of the Church, and all the other stuff thats been mentioned. Symbology of the 12 tribes, etc etc.

apostle, literally “one who is sent”. Quite clearly, Paul was sent, making him an apostle.

but apostle=/=The Twelve Apostles
 
po18guy said:
I’ll Google “Simon the Zealot” or “Simon the Canaanean” and see what shows up! Talk about the Rodney Dangerfield of faith!
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St. Simon is usually paired up with St. Jude. There are parishes named that.

There are also parishes name for St. Simon the Apostle.
 
SenorSalsa said:
I think its important to diferentiate, for the sake of this thread, between the 12 Apostles, and an apostle.

12 Apostles, God’s chosen men to be the first leaders of the Church, and all the other stuff thats been mentioned. Symbology of the 12 tribes, etc etc.

apostle, literally “one who is sent”. Quite clearly, Paul was sent, making him an apostle.

but apostle=/=The Twelve Apostles
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correct
 
I want to say that Matthias is #12 for purposes relating to symbology of the judges and “the 12” etc.

But clearly Paul (and others) is also an apostle too of very high esteem and importance. I can’t in anyway think of Paul as being “lessor” than any of the other 12 apostles. Quite the contrary Paul basically comes across as a supersar who was profoundly instrumental to advancing Christianity. I wonder if Paul is where we get the concept of a baker’s dozen? 🤷

Also, it is in selecting Matthias by lot and that method’s conformity to OT tradtion (Lv 16:7-10; Prv 16:33; Exodus 28:30) and the laying on of hands on Timothy that we get strong scriptural (irrefutable) evidence for an early priesthood and the apostolic succession tradtion that only the Catholic Church (and Orthodox) conforms to till this very day. This topic discussion alone makes it very clear from “scripture alone” that other faiths lacking a solid apostolic succession have no legitimate divine given basis for existing.

James
 
mercygate said:
St. Simon is usually paired up with St. Jude. There are parishes named that.

There are also parishes name for St. Simon the Apostle.
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Clearly, the work they did was much more important than a written record of same. Virtually nothing is known of Saint Simon. He prays for us, though!

Christ’s peace.
 
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