Who really replaced Judas ? [ Mathias or Paul]

  • Thread starter Thread starter BRB
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
However, a recently selected pope didn’t live very long at all. That does seem odd … if H.S. was behind that selection.
We can’t all live to 84!! 👍
Little did he know that my bible had the deck stacked so to speak since I read those passages often and the binding has a page memory for opening up there. 👍
Haha! My Bible is stacked to open to Tobit 😉
 
Clearly the apostles then, and todays Cardinals have the authority to make decision for the Church. And, when the process is not done hastily … it does seem the H.S. will make the correct calls. JP2 and Benedict are phenomenal.

However, a recently selected pope didn’t live very long at all. That does seem odd … if H.S. was behind that selection.
Pope John Paul I reigned only 33 days, one of the shortest in history. But in that roughly one month, he got rid of the Papal Tiara, met with the Argentinian President and publicly reminded him of his Human Rights violations, and is credited as making the Pope seem as a more friendly, pastoral person. He spoke at the level of the audience, and his beatification cuase is already started. Seems like a pretty decent pope.

Not to mention, according to Jeremiah, God knows us before we are born. Before He formed us in the womb, He called us. In which case, the Holy Spirit had 65 years to prepare for the elcection of JPI
 
However, a recently selected pope didn’t live very long at all. That does seem odd … if H.S. was behind that selection.
Hasn’t anyone wondered if the H.S. wanted John Paul to be Pope, but Don Corlioni didn’t? Maybe the Godfather movie was accurate!!! Where is Dan Brown when you need him? 😉
 
This is very interesting!
I think it must be Mathias as the one to replace Judas simply Jesus left the keys to Peter.
(MATTHEW) CHAPTER 16:19 and I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. And had to entrust the decisions made by the early church the fact that they casted lots
Pr 18:18) “Casting the lot settles disputes and keeps strong opponents apart.”
Was a standard way of settling disputes? They lord himself refers to it in
Matthew 27:35-AV and they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, they parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
So I think that Mathias was the replacement to Judas for the original twelve to mirror the twelve tribes of Israel

But Paul was called to be an apostle not as an original 12 but as an apostle: are a (religious) messenger and ambassador.
It’s clear that Paul was an ambassador to the church sent by the Holy Spirit.

(Luke 9:49)
“Master,” we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
I believe in this reference Christ is referring to other Christians (disciples) not among the original.
Is Christ attempt to make it clear that the point of Christianity is to share the good news (the Gospel)
And Paul is known as the Great Evangelizer and an Apostle or disciple not necessarily part of the original 12. but i think would serve greater as an ambassador to the church.
 
Well, not to deny the Holy Spirit’s connection to Paul; but it was his local Christian community who chose him and sent him out with Barnabas (and Mark, IIRC?) to do missionary work. So the Holy Spirit worked through perfectly ordinary means and people to send him to the non-Christians – many years after his big conversion moment.
 
This is very interesting!
I think it must be Mathias as the one to replace Judas simply Jesus left the keys to Peter.
(MATTHEW) CHAPTER 16:19 and I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. And had to entrust the decisions made by the early church the fact that they casted lots
Pr 18:18) “Casting the lot settles disputes and keeps strong opponents apart.”
Was a standard way of settling disputes? They lord himself refers to it in
Matthew 27:35-AV and they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, they parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
So I think that Mathias was the replacement to Judas for the original twelve to mirror the twelve tribes of Israel

But Paul was called to be an apostle not as an original 12 but as an apostle: are a (religious) messenger and ambassador.
It’s clear that Paul was an ambassador to the church sent by the Holy Spirit.

(Luke 9:49)
“Master,” we saw a man driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
I believe in this reference Christ is referring to other Christians (disciples) not among the original.
Is Christ attempt to make it clear that the point of Christianity is to share the good news (the Gospel)
And Paul is known as the Great Evangelizer and an Apostle or disciple not necessarily part of the original 12. but i think would serve greater as an ambassador to the church.
Welcome to the forums, and well said! 👍

If Peter and the Apostles did not have authority to replace Judas, then the Church they founded had no authority to write, compile and canonize the bible. I don’t think anyone wants to go there!
 
Well, not to deny the Holy Spirit’s connection to Paul; but it was his local Christian community who chose him and sent him out with Barnabas (and Mark, IIRC?) to do missionary work. So the Holy Spirit worked through perfectly ordinary means and people to send him to the non-Christians – many years after his big conversion moment.
Are you sure about this? In Acts, we see the Holy Spirit somehow conveying to the Apostles, “set aside Saul and Barnabus for a mission to Cypress”.

It seems rather clear who selected Paul. This isn’t to deny, though, that Mathias is the 12th Apostle.
 
I wonder if Hahn actually said this. For me its purely hear say and possibly apocryphal. He must know that this idea is a common protestant argument against apostolic succession as many use it.

How can those who write the NT scriptures with absolute truth and authority make their first judicial act fallible in nature?
 
I wonder if Hahn actually said this. For me its purely hear say and possibly apocryphal. He must know that this idea is a common protestant argument against apostolic succession as many use it.

How can those who write the NT scriptures with absolute truth and authority make their first judicial act fallible in nature?
Without listening to his talk, I would make the (uneducated) guess that Hahn was bringing up this point as an argument often posed by Protestants so that he could then prove it was a straw-man argument.

I’ve listened to Scott Hahn enough to know that he is well familiar with the Unim and the Thurimm, which were the instruments the ancient Israeli High-Priest used when faced with tough decisions to make. This means of “casting lots” was meant to show that Israel trusted God with these tough decisions, for casting lots totally eliminates human intervention, thus human “meddling”.
 
Welcome to the forums, and well said! 👍

If Peter and the Apostles did not have authority to replace Judas, then the Church they founded had no authority to write, compile and canonize the bible. I don’t think anyone wants to go there!
Hey thanks for the warm welcome:thumbsup: there are some well informed and intelligent people here.
 
If you read Acts 1 carefully, you will see that they were acting in the flesh and were NOT filled with the Holy Spirit which occurred in Acts 2. Not only were they acting in the flesh they were quoting scriptures out of context to justifly their sinful fleshly behavior.
 
If you read Acts 1 carefully, you will see that they were acting in the flesh and were NOT filled with the Holy Spirit which occurred in Acts 2. Not only were they acting in the flesh they were quoting scriptures out of context to justifly their sinful fleshly behavior.
Where is the scriptural evidence that the eleven were to wait until the Lord appointed a replacement? I hear only crickets chirping. Peter already had the keys to the Kingdom (Matthew 16:19), and had received the Holy Spirit, directly form Jesus (John 20:22). As well, Peter was asking God, through the religious practice of casting of lots, to name Judas’ replacement (ref. John 14:14, John 16:23-24). You doubt the 1,977 year old Church, but trust in your own prophetic abilities?
 
If you read Acts 1 carefully, you will see that they were acting in the flesh and were NOT filled with the Holy Spirit which occurred in Acts 2. Not only were they acting in the flesh they were quoting scriptures out of context to justifly their sinful fleshly behavior.
Ummmmmmm, no.

If you read Acts, you will find that, like David, the Apostles prayed to God before coming up with the idea. As a matter of fact, they prayed for 9 whole days before Peter came to this decision.

If you recall in the Old Covenant, any time one of the patriarchs (or the great heroes of the Old Testament) prayed to God before making a decision, then God blessed their decision. You see this with Moses, Joshua, King David, and Solomon. Conversely, you’ll find that decisions made without praying to God beforehand often came out poorly. King Saul and some of King David’s decisions prove this out.

Regarding the mis-quoting of Scripture, I think the inspired author of Acts would have pointed out that Peter acted rashly when he decided to mis-quote Scripture.

But note that even St. Paul and St. Luke, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit refers to the Apostles as “The Twelve”. What’s even more telling is that Luke refers to the Apostles as “The Eleven” after Judas’ death and prior to the induction of Mathias.

Finally, the decision by St. Peter seems to be blessed by the Holy Spirit, because the very next scene is the Pentecost. The Holy Spirit was waiting for the Apostleship to be fully staffed before He descended upon them.
 
If you read Acts 1 carefully, you will see that they were acting in the flesh and were NOT filled with the Holy Spirit which occurred in Acts 2. Not only were they acting in the flesh they were quoting scriptures out of context to justifly their sinful fleshly behavior.
Can you carefully explain to me how you come to this conclusion? How were they acting in the Flesh.
 
If you read Acts 1 carefully, you will see that they were acting in the flesh and were NOT filled with the Holy Spirit which occurred in Acts 2. Not only were they acting in the flesh they were quoting scriptures out of context to justifly their sinful fleshly behavior.
So you think they didn’t have God’s blessing in make the call to cast lots ? Thus, Christ later had to intervene and call Saul to the 12 Apostleship ? Indeed we don’t hear much thereafter about Mathias.

Anyone know much about Mathias … from Catholic Tradition ?
 
So you think they didn’t have God’s blessing in make the call to cast lots ? Thus, Christ later had to intervene and call Saul to the 12 Apostleship ? Indeed we don’t hear much thereafter about Mathias.

Anyone know much about Mathias … from Catholic Tradition ?
The Catholic Encyclopedia contains various traditions regardign Mathias.
All further information concerning the life and death of Matthias is vague and contradictory. According to Nicephorus (Church History II.40), he first preached the Gospel in Judea, then in Ethiopia (that is to say, Colchis) and was crucified. The Synopsis of Dorotheus contains this tradition: Matthias in interiore Æthiopia, ubi Hyssus maris portus et Phasis fluvius est, hominibus barbaris et carnivoris praedicavit Evangelium. Mortuus est autem in Sebastopoli, ibique prope templum Solis sepultus (Matthias preached theGospel to barbarians and cannibals in the interior of Ethiopia, at the harbour of the sea of Hyssus, at the mouth of the river Phasis. He died at Sebastopolis, and was buried there, near the Temple of the Sun). Still another tradition maintains that Matthias was stoned at Jerusalem by the Jews, and then beheaded (cf. Tillemont, “Mémoires pour servir à l’histoire eccl. des six premiers siècles”, I, 406-7). It is said that St. Helena brought the relics of St. Matthias to Rome, and that a portion of them was at Trier. Bollandus* (Acta SS., May, III) doubts if the relics that are in Rome are not rather those of the St. Matthias who was Bishop of Jerusalem about the year 120, and whose history would seem to have been confounded with that of the Apostle. The Latin Church celebrates the feast of St. Matthias on 24 February and the Greek Church on 9 August. Note: After this article was written, the Latin Church moved the feast of St. Matthias to 14 May.]
Clement of Alexandria (Stromata III.4) records a sentence that the Nicolaitans ascribe to Matthias: “we must combat our flesh, set no value upon it, and concede to it nothing that can flatter it, but rather increase the growth of our soul by faith and knowledge”. This teaching was probably found in the Gospel of Matthias which was mentioned by Origen (Hom. i in Lucam); by Eusebius (Church History III.25), who attributes it to heretics; by St. Jerome (Praef. in Matth.), and in the Decree of Gelasius (VI, 8) which declares it apocryphal. It is at the end of the list of the Codex Barrocciamus (206). This Gospel is probably the document whence Clement of Alexandria quoted several passages, saying that they were borrowed from the traditions of Matthias, Paradoseis, the testimony of which he claimed to have been invoked by the heretics Valentinus, Marcion, and Basilides (Stromata VII.17). According to the Philosophoumena, VII, 20, Basilides quoted apocryphal discourses, which he attributed to Matthias. These three writings: the gospel, the Traditions, and the Apocryphal Discourses were identified by Zahn (Gesch. des N. T. Kanon, II, 751), but Harnack (Chron. der altchrist. Litteratur, 597) denies this identification. Tischendorf (“Acta apostolorum apocrypha”, Leipzig, 1851) published after Thilo, 1846, “Acta Andreae et Matthiae in urbe anthropophagarum”, which, according to Lipsius, belonged to the middle of the second century. This apocrypha relates that Matthias went among the cannibals and, being cast into prison, was delivered by Andrew. Needless to say, the entire narrative is without historical value. Moreover, it should be remembered that, in the apocryphal writings, Matthew and Matthias have sometimes been confounded.
 
Not much there we can claim as Gospel ! Lets agree that Christ made the better selection …😃
I don’t know. Peter’s selection brought on the Holy Spirit. Without the Holy Spirit, there would be no Church.

No Church… No Paul.

I think both choices were instrumental (and necessary) to usher in the Kingdom!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top